Virtualization for the (Intel) Mac?

[ccrandall77]

The fact that the developers are Russian has literally no bearing on whether the software contains spyware or backdoors (wtf?). Also, have you ever heard of MacKiev, or the trend for quite a bit of programming to be done by former Russian nuclear scientists and engineers?

Nice apples to oranges comparison. I never said that all Russian programmers were bad, but the fact remains that enough malware as come from there that it gives me reason to pause.

I suppose you automatically assume that anyone from Nigeria who'd bid on your eBay auction is on the up and up, eh?

 

[daveschroeder]

Nice apples to oranges comparison. I never said that all Russian programmers were bad, but the fact remains that enough malware as come from there that it gives me reason to pause.

I suppose you automatically assume that anyone from Nigeria who'd bid on your eBay auction is on the up and up, eh?

It's not apples to oranges at all. It's spot on.

You're assuming that because software developers at a US-based commercial company developing enterprise products are based in Russia that the software has any higher of a likelihood of containing spyware or backdoors (!), and there is no basis for that assumption just because actual spyware and/or malware is known to originate from, e.g., Asia at large.

Not to mention you completely glossed over the substantial technical merits and featureset of the actual product, which is already shipping commercially on two platforms (Windows and Linux).

---
Dave Schroeder
University of Wisconsin - Madison
das@doit.wisc.edu
http://das.doit.wisc.edu

 

[WindowsDivorcer]

Virtual Desktop Today, Virtual App Window Tomorrow

Wow, a sensible debate on the merits of virtualisation and not a "How dare you put Windows on a Mac" posting in sight (yet)!!!

Certain 'flammers' always missed the fact that although Windows is inferior to OS X, there are many excellent 3rd party apps that have ignored Macs. I'm having to put off replacing my creaky Powerbook G4 until there is a Virtual PC update or equivalent application. Rebooting whilst good for a clean configuration before running hungry games, doesn’t cut it when using mixed applications.

I'm hoping (cross fingers) for superior performance of a Virtual PC-like product in the short term; after all it only has to emulate the OS and not the CPU. In the longer term the ability to run an application window straight from the mac dock without launching a separate desktop.

 

[daveschroeder]

I'm hoping (cross fingers) for superior performance of a Virtual PC-like product in the short term; after all it only has to emulate the OS and not the CPU. In the longer term the ability to run an application window straight from the mac dock without launching a separate desktop.

It's not even emulating the OS. The OS believes it is running natively on x86 hardware, and x86 calls are being directly passed to the CPU at the kernel level. This is what virtualization software *is*. It will (not "may", not "might", but "will") run x86 operating systems at essentially the speed of the underlying hardware. This means that, except for 3D graphics and heavy disk I/O, your Windows XP, Linux, FreeBSD, etc., installation will perform almost as well as it would natively running on the hardware directly, with very little overhead. Because Parallels uses Intel's VT, which further partitions the processor specifically for virtualization tasks, there is even less overhead than there have been with traditional virtualization solutions.

And yes, you're right: this will be a holy grail for many people.

---
Dave Schroeder
University of Wisconsin - Madison
das@doit.wisc.edu
http://das.doit.wisc.edu

 

[Hattig]

Hmmm.

Whilst virtualisation hardware is in Intel's Core Duo and Solo processors, it isn't enabled currently (although the upcoming T2700 is said to have it enabled). Of course it could merely be that current Yonahs are enabled, it just isn't advertised.

And running Windows XP under virtualisation requires hardware virtualisation, there's no way to run the OS on top of a hypervisor like Xen because a software hypervisor requires the guest operating systems to have modifications to run on the hypervisor - easy enough to do for Linux or *BSD, but not a closed source OS like Microsoft (although Microsoft Research will have done a version that runs on the Xen hypervisor, it'll never see the light of day).

This company has written, from nowhere, a virtualisation solution that can run Mac OS X Intel, Windows XP and Linux (at the very least) with no fanfare until today? Maybe they're building off of another product, such as Xen, and their work has merely been getting Xen installed on a Mac reliably and running other operating systems.

Edit: Ah, they use QEMU with their own extensions.

 

[balamw]

Once Q/QEMU on Mac OS X gets virtualization, then yes, I suppose you could say it's a "competitor".

Thanks for casting some light into the situation.

I thought there was some ongoing work for a QEMU "Accelerator Module" that was to bring virtualization support to QEMU, probbaly in a similar way to what Parallels has done/is working on. Yup.

Definitely whoever fills this space first with a < $100 solution offering decent performance will probably get my money.

B

 

[barisax5of12]

Pentium II?

Just looked at Parrallel and noticed that the virtual machine specs are interesting. When their OSX Workstation comes available will the guest Windows operating system be stuck under a Pentium II?

 

[yac_moda]

It's not even emulating the OS. The OS believes it is running natively on x86 hardware, and x86 calls are being directly passed to the CPU at the kernel level. This is what virtualization software *is*. It will (not "may", not "might", but "will") run x86 operating systems at essentially the speed of the underlying hardware. This means that, except for 3D graphics and heavy disk I/O, your Windows XP, Linux, FreeBSD, etc., installation will perform almost as well as it would natively running on the hardware directly, with very little overhead. Because Parallels uses Intel's VT, which further partitions the processor specifically for virtualization tasks, there is even less overhead than there have been with traditional virtualization solutions.

And yes, you're right: this will be a holy grail for many people.

---
Dave Schroeder
University of Wisconsin - Madison
das@doit.wisc.edu
http://das.doit.wisc.edu

The opensource virtualization software that is used to create these products creates a layer between the software and the hardware that emulates the most basic system and self optimizes as the software runs.

Check the opensource website it will explain it to you.

But you are right there will very little over head, and the particular software mentioned is very customizable so games can easily be maximized !!!

Check my last post for that.

 

[daveschroeder]

Hmmm.

Whilst virtualisation hardware is in Intel's Core Duo and Solo processors, it isn't enabled currently (although the upcoming T2700 is said to have it enabled). Of course it could merely be that current Yonahs are enabled, it just isn't advertised.

Wrong. Intel VT is enabled on *all* Core Duos in Intel-based Macs (except some Mac minis).

And running Windows XP under virtualisation requires hardware virtualisation, there's no way to run the OS on top of a hypervisor like Xen because a software hypervisor requires the guest operating systems to have modifications to run on the hypervisor - easy enough to do for Linux or *BSD, but not a closed source OS like Microsoft (although Microsoft Research will have done a version that runs on the Xen hypervisor, it'll never see the light of day).

The hypervisor model Parallels uses is kernel-level calls interfacing with the userland product running under the "Primary" OS.

This Russian company has written, from nowhere, a virtualisation solution that can run Mac OS X Intel, Windows XP and Linux (at the very least) with no fanfare until today?

1. It can't run Mac OS X (Intel). It runs *on* Mac OS X (Intel).

2. It is already shipping for Windows and Linux.

3. It already has official support for all of these OSes in the Windows and Linux product: http://www.parallels.com/en/products/guest_os/

---
Dave Schroeder
University of Wisconsin - Madison
das@doit.wisc.edu
http://das.doit.wisc.edu

 

[Multimedia]

Fantastic - This Is The Solution I Have Been Expecting

Glad to see it only took 3 months for someone to figure out how we can have our cake (OS X) and eat it too (Vista). Let's face it, some applications are never going to be written for Mac. This is great and not unexpected news. 😀 😛 🙂 🙂 🙂 😱 😱 🙂 🙂 🙂

 

[daveschroeder]

Just looked at Parrallel and noticed that the virtual machine specs are interesting. When their OSX Workstation comes available will the guest Windows operating system be stuck under a Pentium II?

No. The VT model means that the guest OS will see the processor as a single core Intel Core family processor.

---
Dave Schroeder
University of Wisconsin - Madison
das@doit.wisc.edu
http://das.doit.wisc.edu

 

[crees!]

It's not apples to oranges at all. It's spot on.

You're assuming that because software developers at a US-based commercial company developing enterprise products are based in Russia ...

So they're based in Herdon, VA but are developing products based in Russia. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

[iMeowbot]

Whoa, there cowboy! I had a look at the current product when I read the headline about it earlier from CNet and, while it will emulate different hardware components such as network devices and sound cards, I didn't notice anything about display adaptors, let alone 3D acceleration. I suspect that while you'll be able to install and run Windows much more simply using this rather than the OnMac.net solution, gaming isn't something that you'll be doing, at least not beyond minesweeper.

It's VESA VBE 3.0, which is little more than frame buffer functionality. They claim to be working on Direct3D compatibility in the future.

 

[Peace]

So they're based in Herdon, VA but are developing products based in Russia. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I'm guessing their servers are based in Herndon,Va.

 

[esaleris]

If virtualization is in Leopard then it should be THE BEST MACHINE FOR GAMES 😱 😀

I think it is VERY LIKELY the reason Dell bought Alien is because Dell knows that Jobs is building the new Macs to be great game MACchines so he bought Alien to try to counter Jobs move. 😱 😱 😱

Quite candidly, that is so ridiculous, I had to comment on it. I'm not even sure Dell considers Apple a big competitor in general, much less "gamer" market. The move to buy out Alienware had a lot to do with the recent moves to diversify its portfolio of products. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Macs.

 

[daveschroeder]

So they're based in Herdon, VA but are developing products based in Russia. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

It makes no sense to you that there are Russian Mac OS X programmers, many of whom are former Soviet government scientists and engineers who are now out of work, who do very precise and high quality work for a mere fraction of the cost of programming teams based exclusively in the US?

If only corporations would realize that outsourcing labor for things like textile or automotive manufacturing to locations outside of the US would save loads of money, because the local economies allow for lower wages!

Oh, wait...

---
Dave Schroeder
University of Wisconsin - Madison
das@doit.wisc.edu
http://das.doit.wisc.edu

 

[crees!]

Skimming over the site I see NO mention of Mac support as the Primary OS. This is only available for Windows NT/2000/XP/2003 or Linux OSes.

http://www.parallels.com/en/products/hardware/

 

[MrCrowbar]

What if Apple came out with a MACchine that has BOTH a PPC and an Intel processer, game coders could build and test and all targets instantly 😱 😱 😱

Now that's an interesting concept: 2 different CPUs in the same box. Imagine a powerMac with dual core G4 (64 bit RISC) and a Core Duo (32 bit CISC) working together. That would be the perfect system for "the transition". You could run some thread on the G5 and some on the Core Duo, depending on which CPU is better suited for the task. Or for making it more simple, you can choose whether to run an app on the G5 or Core Duo, depening on which one runs faster. So iPhoto would be running on the Intel while Photoshop is on the G5. Of yourse the OS would have some work with handling Memory usage and the mainboard would look disturbing at first (PPC inches away from an Intel on the same board... that doesn't seem right) but it would be cool in a technical way.

However it's good to be aple to isolate the infection (windows) in vitro 🙄

 

[daveschroeder]

I'm guessing their servers are based in Herndon,Va.

No, the company and business/marketing/support offices are based in Herndon, VA, and it is entirely a US corporation, making use of Russian programming labor and expertise, which is now extremely common, and has been in the Mac OS X marketplace for some time, which apparently has been lost on everyone here.

And I still don't see what bearing where the programmers are based has on anything, much less the quality of the product.

---
Dave Schroeder
University of Wisconsin - Madison
das@doit.wisc.edu
http://das.doit.wisc.edu

Skimming over the site I see NO mention of Mac support as the Primary OS. This is only available for Windows NT/2000/XP/2003 or Linux OSes.

http://www.parallels.com/en/products/hardware/

That is correct.

That's because the Mac OS X product is not, you know, even released yet.

They kind of mentioned that in both the summary here and the actual article: http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?newsID=5712

---
Dave Schroeder
University of Wisconsin - Madison
das@doit.wisc.edu
http://das.doit.wisc.edu

Now that's an interesting concept: 2 different CPUs in the same box. Imagine a powerMac with dual core G4 (64 bit RISC) and a Core Duo (32 bit CISC) working together. That would be the perfect system for "the transition". You could run some thread on the G5 and some on the Core Duo, depending on which CPU is better suited for the task. Or for making it more simple, you can choose whether to run an app on the G5 or Core Duo, depening on which one runs faster. So iPhoto would be running on the Intel while Photoshop is on the G5. Of yourse the OS would have some work with handling Memory usage and the mainboard would look disturbing at first (PPC inches away from an Intel on the same board... that doesn't seem right) but it would be cool in a technical way.

However it's good to be aple to isolate the infection (windows) in vitro 🙄

That's a pretty ridiculous and unnecessary idea. So much so, in fact, that it was an April Fool's joke:

http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20060331205742408

---
Dave Schroeder
University of Wisconsin - Madison
das@doit.wisc.edu
http://das.doit.wisc.edu

 

[crees!]

It makes no sense to you that there are Russian Mac OS X programmers, many of whom are former Soviet government scientists and engineers who are now out of work, who do very precise and high quality work for a mere fraction of the cost of programming teams based exclusively in the US?

If only corporations would realize that outsourcing labor for things like textile or automotive manufacturing to locations outside of the US would save loads of money, because the local economies allow for lower wages!

Dude.. you're going a little crazy here. I don't care who's developing what. Besides there's NO MENTION of anything Russian on the company's site. So I have no idea how/why this fuss came up as it is totally NOT RELATED to this company/program. My suggestion... drop it.

 

[Peace]

Wasn't the guy that came up with the dual-boot thing Russian ?

 

[iMeowbot]

Wasn't the guy that came up with the dual-boot thing Russian ?

The guy who cracked OS X to run on generic PCs is. The people who got Windows running on Mac are based in California.

Communigate (nice Mac mail server from the old days, I think they are still around) came from Russia too.

 

[yac_moda]

Quite candidly, that is so ridiculous, I had to comment on it. I'm not even sure Dell considers Apple a big competitor in general, much less "gamer" market. The move to buy out Alienware had a lot to do with the recent moves to diversify its portfolio of products. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Macs.

Gee that's funny the way you put it Dell would never even recognize Apple exists or mention Apple.

Even while Dell and Jobs have seemed to have a feud going 😱


Apple has been eating Dell's lunch ever since there stock charts crossed paths ...
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=1y&s=DELL&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=aapl

WOW !!! DELL's chart is DOWN 50% in the last few months that is one NASTY UGLY CHART !!

I wonder how much longer they will be in business !


I remember when Jobs said Gateway and Dell would be out of business in 2 years. He was right about Gateway maybe Dell will just take a little longer 😱

 

[mark88]

Great News, I hope it's good!

Shame on you people voting negative.😛

 

[seashellz]

Imagine-people dumping PCs by the thousands (an many even Windows)
When you have a Mac that can smoothly and quickly run anything.
My one question is: would Windows faults be the same as if on a PC or would it more more stable and secure? Anyway-heres to 50% marketshare ina few years. OH-and dont say Steve doesnt care about it-you grow to survive-and he woldnt have switched to Intel if he didnt;
-------
Parallels enters virtualisation market FOR $100.00!

By Manek Dubash, Techworld

There's a new kid on the virtualisation block. Parallels, a privately held, US-based software company has launched its first virtualisation tool, Parallels Workstation, and plans to produce a server version by the start of next year.

second ponder: WHAT IF WINDOWS rans faster and smoother on a Mac??? (ans WASNT as prone to hacks and viruses?)
The Russian-developed software competes directly with VMware Workstation and Microsoft Virtual PC, although marketing manager Benjamin Rudolph said that the product has three differentiators. Firstly, it is cheaper, the workstation version selling for $99. Rudolph said this compared to $189 for the VMware equivalent.

It is also claimed to support a wide range of OSes, both guest and host. As well as Mac OS X, Windows 2000 (all versions), 2003 Server and XP, host OSes include most Linux versions based on the 2.6 kernel, according to Rudolph. It supports FreeBSD and is "very strong on legacy support", such as OS/2.

The final benefit is its ease of use, said Rudolph. "It has a small footprint, and is quick to download and install. To create a virtual machine, there's a simple VM creation wizard," he said. "Version 2.0 [of Workstation] is our current rev and 3.0 is out in 2006. It will be faster, offer more OS support, and include features such as 64-bit and [Intel] VT support."

Parallels Server is for IT managers to maximise hardware usage. "It will be tailored for the server environment. It's still in development, but we'll be able to release more technology data in the next couple of months."

There will also be an Enterprise Server version in 2006, which will be able to manage VMs across multiple hardware instances, in much the same manner as existing enterprise-level virtualisation tools.