All iPads Wacom would go out of business with universal pencil support.

Discussion in 'iPad' started by FallenLegend, Jan 17, 2016.

  1. FallenLegend, Jan 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2016

    FallenLegend macrumors member

    FallenLegend

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    Oct 8, 2015
    #1
    I think this is a thread that most fellow artist will relate to. With this your will understand why the pencil is such a big deal.

    For those non artist wacom is a company that creates drawing tablets and the preferred tool maker for digital artists. Google any piece of digital art and odds are that 9 out of ten times it was made with a wacom product. The reason we need wacom over any mouse or dumb styli can be summarized in two words "pressure sensivity."

    The first version always sucks and early adopters get screwed and yet unlike some third party solutions "adonit's pixel point" or "pencil by 53" that were considered toys at best the apple pencil is a tool. Meaning there were a lot of companies created for or that just invested a lot of money just to create a stylus to draw in an iPad even before apple stepped in with the pencil. The first version of the apple pencil is getting a lot of comparisons with Wacom and surface.

    [​IMG]



    Wacom has always been notoriously overpriced. Even the expensive iPad Pro is, believe it or not, cheaper than the cintiq line. Only the none portable cintiq 13 HD is as expensive as the iPad pro. Ironically Apple is already the cheapest option with just iPad pro support. Meanwhile the (not as) portable and super bulky cintiq companion that is at least 1350 dollars (if you live in America if not that will get a lot more expensive) is very very expensive and not as portable as the iPad pro at all (they even have noisy fans).

    Most digital artist have dreamed of drawing directly on a screen for years but only the pros (or rich) have been able to justify or afford buying one. Meanwhile the beginners or people without money have had to rely on cheap bamboo tablets and adapt to drawing in a board and seeing the screen, but we adapted.

    [​IMG]


    Ever wonder the reason you have to charge your pencil? It's because Wacom has the patent of not chargeable styli.

    When the pencil arrives to all iPads (not just the pro) or if it remains exclusive, when we get the pro 2 (making the pro 1 cheaper), there will be literally no reason for artist (specially beginners) to not get an iPad to draw instead of an intuos or a bamboo tablet or even a cintiq. Some pros might still prefer the cintiq but with the refinement of astropad and future versions of the pencil coming the iPad improving over the stagnate wacom most will be eventually win over Wacom.

    Many artist have worked their asses, sweat , tears and savings just to be able to get the cheapest wacom not minding even for a second the discomfort of watching a screen and drawing in a pad. Some artist even got to steal cheap printing paper just to be able to draw.

    That's why I feel the snobs that want the pencil exclusive to the pro just to be able to brag on starbucks are being close minded at best and selfishly stagnating art at worst.

    [​IMG]

    TL; DR the pencil is a game changer for artists.
    --- Post Merged, Jan 17, 2016 ---
    updated with some pictures.
     
  2. Dranix macrumors 6502a

    Dranix

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    #2
    It has nothing to do with being a snob - even Apple can't include expensive parts for free in cheaper devices.
     
  3. Bpmd macrumors newbie

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    Nov 28, 2015
    #3
    You're all over the place.

    If you have to steal paper to draw, you probably shouldn't be buying any digital art tools. The pencil alone costs $99, and you'll still need a compatible iOS device for it do do anything (you can pick up a Bamboo/Intuos for around $80, and it'll work with most Mac/Windows/Linux machines).

    No... Wacom will not be going out of business if Apple make the Pencil work with other devices. Just, no.
     
  4. PattyMc macrumors regular

    PattyMc

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    Mar 7, 2012
    #4
    I understand what you are trying to say, I think, lol. You are wanting the Pencil to come to a less expensive device, not the price of an IPad Pro.

    But it's not just the Pencil that makes it such a great device...the Pencil works hand in hand (no pun intended) with the screen of the IPP. There is no personal reason to not want the Pencil to be available for other IPads, but I do think that the price of whatever device it works well for will increase. Why? Because the screen and the Pencil have to work together to make the magic happen.

    I get the whole "starving artist thing" but to call others snobs, close minded, and selfish....that I don't get.

    I don't think Wacom will go out of business because of Apple, do they have some serious competition in their beginner line now with the IPP/Pencil combo..yep, but that's just how business is. It's a competitive market.

    Good luck with your art, you have talent.
     
  5. FallenLegend thread starter macrumors member

    FallenLegend

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    Oct 8, 2015
    #5
    Strawman fallacy, nobody is asking for anything "free" even the cheapest iPad isn't certainly free. I simply said I wanted it to be universal.

    --- Post Merged, Jan 17, 2016 ---
    I am not. You simply missed the point. My art teacher used to steal paper, my point was how willing artists are for their craft.

    --- Post Merged, Jan 17, 2016 ---
    To clarify I am against attitudes not people. I have never called any person snob just the attitude itself.

    Thanks for the compliment by the way.


     
  6. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #6
    it would be great if IPP was cheaper! but its not. deal with it. honestly a cheap 80$ wacom and a sketchbook is a far better art option. you get the best software that studio's actually use and a sketchbook on the go that performs better than any digital tool. Things will get much cheaper in a few years, just be patient. im a veteran digital aritst, trust me you are not missing out on much with the IPP, its really over-hyped and not game changing in any way. its just another solid product in a market with many good solutions.

    you are also wrong about the CC2. its a far better machine than the IPP. i use mine much more than the IPP. even for personal projects. the software is just far better on a desktop OS and the CC2 hareware is insanely fast.

    Astropad? have you tried it? its a joke. quad sampled, laggy, no color calibration, tons of bugs. Until Apple integrates video capture into the ipad, Astropad will be only for noob's or hobbyist. no way to send that much data over USB. its a craptastic experience.

    Apple putting wacom out of business? lol not with the current tech. Apple is for consumers, wacom still owns the pro department. not to many pro's want to work all day on a tiny 13" tablet- with inferior software. The CC3 might be a game changer. if it has better battery life, ill be selling my IPP and only using the CC3.
     
  7. masotime macrumors 68000

    masotime

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    #7
    So I got lost finding the central argument of the OP's post.

    So the central argument is "I think iPads of all sizes should support the Apple Pencil"?
     
  8. rowspaxe macrumors 68000

    rowspaxe

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    Jan 29, 2010
    #8
    The pencil is nice but the impression here that it is revolutionary is wrong. Tests in similar software show the pencil latency about the same as surface pro. I also vote a thumbs up
    for the Companion 2. If you don't need a "mobile" solution--I think its a great product.
     
  9. Acorn macrumors 68020

    Acorn

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    #9
    cintiq companion 2 battery life sucks. its a good mobile device if you dont have to actually be mobile and can be plugged in. I would much rather have the ipad pro with its great battery life and better screen. The cintiq companion 2 also weighs close to 5 pounds and is the size of a 15 inch laptop borders and all. Its not as great as many people make it out to be I had one and others have had them and still prefer the ipad pro.
     
  10. yillbs macrumors 6502

    yillbs

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    #10
    No offense intended bruh, but if an " artist " or any other person is starving/living wondering when they will eat/living below poverty/etc because they can't afford the tools they need for the job they want, it's time to get a new job, dontcha think?
     
  11. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #11
    Bla bla bla. We are debating Personal preferences. I'm mobile all the time, no issues. These two tablets don't really compare at all, that was my point. IPP is great but all it can do for me is doodling, or simple paintings in my spare time. it's a one trick pony for my workflow. it's very limited by software. my cintiq can do anything I ask it to do, no compromises. You could compare IPP to the 3 year old hybrid companion that ran android and had 10 hours battery life. Wacom discontinued that model because a mobile OS sucks compared to full OS applications. But at least u could hook it up to a computer and run photoshop on it without a poor image quality and lag like astropad. my IPP is only used for sketching on the couch or color comps, then it's back to the cintiq for real work.

    How well does your IPP run Zbrush, Photoshop, Corel Painter? Go to any art college and what software do they teach you to get a job? Procreate or photoshop? I'll take the CC2 and its 6 hours battery life over a tablet like IPP that can't do anything except Procreate. I only get 8 hrs of actual painting on IPP. The borders, yep, that's why the Wacom pen is better. No battery necessary with that digitizer. and express keys make photoshop without a keyboard possible, in full screen mode. 5 pounds for a mobile workstation with that much power is amazing!

    It's just dumb to compare these two. Totally different users, and use cases.

    *disclaimer: I actually love my IPP. It's a really nice drawing experience. I'm sure many pro's will use it in some way or another. Just don't insult me and other tablet PC users who have been doing this for decades with this 'game changer' or 'revolutionary' Language. It's just another tablet, and it has shortcomings like all the other tablets. It's up to the individual to decide which model fits their needs best.
     
  12. Dranix macrumors 6502a

    Dranix

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    #12
    I'll never get why many "pros" are so fixated at tools... And btw iPP has more the Procreate. Sketchbook and ArtRage are 2 other really strong programs.
     
  13. kupkakez macrumors 68000

    kupkakez

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    #13
    I have nothing to add to this but I did want to say I really like that Mickey, very cool! Did you draw that?
     
  14. yillbs macrumors 6502

    yillbs

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    #14
    anyone else wanna tell this guy to ****, but doesn't because they secretly know he's right?
     
  15. rowspaxe macrumors 68000

    rowspaxe

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    #15
    Ever hear of "starving artists?" Alot of creative professionals negotiate poverty while they try to get their careers going. Some make it work, many move on.
     
  16. yillbs macrumors 6502

    yillbs

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    #16
    What's that have to do with the tools needed to do the job? If you cant afford them, don't bitch they are to expensive, save your money, get the tools, then have the job you want. That's what most people do. While I understand they are not LITERALLY starving, it's the same point i'm making. Artists were artists WELL before the IPP was here, i'm sure they can survive without it.
     
  17. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #17
    better tools save time and make better art. thats why we like them. Its the same with paint. better oils and brushes make better paintings, generally speaking of course (there are exceptions to every rule). i have those programs too. sketchbook is a shadow of itself on IOS. all the perspective tools are gone. Artrage is nice for painting- but some of us need to do more than just simulate painting. i didnt mean that there is only 1 good app. I meant that all IOS apps are very limited by IOS interface and apple tablet interface design philosophy. The limits are actually nice for most people (consumers, hobbyist artists, some illustrators), but not for those of us that need more complex software. I like photoshop more because i can set it up how i want, not how apple wants me to use it.

    Just trying to keep it real! no offense intended here.
     
  18. bensisko macrumors 65816

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    #18
    Disagree - partially. I'll give you the argument that better tools save time, but better tools DON'T make better art. It's all about the artist whose hands hold the tools. It's the same with oils/brushes as well as cameras.
    Again, I give you the same time because anything that lets an artist concentrate on the product, not the process, is a good thing.

    This is the argument I have against people who think the iPad isn't "Pro Gear". I get that everybody has a preferred workflow and you can be more efficient using preferred tools, but the best you can say is "it doesn't fit into MY workflow, but it could work for someone else."
     
  19. Dranix macrumors 6502a

    Dranix

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    #19
    Then why so focused on Photoshop? One of the worst painting programs on the market?
     
  20. bensisko macrumors 65816

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    #20
    Because Photoshop is (still) an industry standard.
    It is curious, though, because more and more you can produce files that are compatible with Adobe file formats. I can open/save .psd files from Sketchbook (even on the iPad).

    Again, depends on the person/workflow, but I'm not convinced any took shines when it stands on it's own (that goes for digital and conventional tools).

    I start projects on the iPad all the time - occasionally I finish them (or do components) on the MacBook. For me, it's not an all-or-nothing argument.
     
  21. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #21
    we can agree to disagree. ive been trying to refrain from "we" statements and make it clear "i" was stating my experience. I must have failed on that last post. of course its individual choice for individual arts. for myself, my art is allot better looking on a CC2 than a IPP. Of course the artist is the main factor, but materials or software do matter. i used to use only cheap paint because i was poor. but, when i got a job i switched to higher quality paints and my art did improve significantly. Better quality pigments, better application and feel. this does matter. sure you can get the job done with student quality paint or software, but its always wise to use the best if you can afford it. i feel this analogy applies to digital also. thats been my experience. but of crouse YMMV. The difference is subtle, but i see it in my work.

    i use Corel too. And sketchbook pro. i also using allot of 3d (zbrush, modo, and Goboto) for personal projects and work. but photoshop does work well IMO. Its the industry standard. i love the custom shape tool and the mixer brush.
     
  22. Dranix macrumors 6502a

    Dranix

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    #22
    The only thing I miss directly on my iPP is CSP. A native version of it would be heaven.
     
  23. hiddenmarkov macrumors 6502a

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    #23
    This really. Its not like they have this exclusively. I know an aspiring coder can have a laundry list of tools to work their craft that can run a bill over $1000 easily. Even better, many of the things can be renewable subs annually, so its hundreds a year to keep updates and in worst case to have it working still. I know I code enough for C and have seen the bene's of intel compilers and libraries I'd love to have them. Not at $700 for initial buy plus whatever annual renewal is though.

    Work without the tools or worst case take a job that pays money to get them if that "must have". Not everyone works every day of their life in their desired career. Welcome to reality there. take the unplanned side path that meets a need something you have to do sometimes. Key is to not lose sight of the dream as it were to get off that path when you can.

    Rest of the rant....Not seeing it really. pencil is probably an actual unique feature to the IPP. Not seeing apple take that away. Don't have to e-stalk me to see I am in the IPP critic crowd here. I will grant though pencil use is something actually good and useful my mini cannot do from the IPP line.


    that and death of Wacom....? not all artists will hop on this IPP. I have supported many graphics artist over the years IT wise. Their big screens on mac pro's or just imacs....from their cold dead hands is how you are getting them away from them. means Wacom has some business for quite a while. If the angle is if apple does it for all many will rush to it to kill Wacom...op doesn't know how real world graphic arts works sometimes.

    Our marketing section just got a decent number of new mac pro's. 6 new IPP's after that anytime soon, no way in hell. We don't even an internal wireless network to support them. 3 years minimum to meet ROI on the buy is what we have for cheap dells. Cost of the Mac pro's...4-5 years ROI what I'd wager. hope they like them, its theirs for a good while in either case.
     
  24. Acorn, Jan 18, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016

    Acorn macrumors 68020

    Acorn

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    #24
    I dont think the IPP is the death of Wacom but I do believe it is possible for Apple to create a better cintiq then wacom has done. How accurate the pencil is eye boggling for something that doesnt even have nor need a calibration program. It does not suffer from any of the problems the traditional cintiq does like inaccuracy along the edges and constantly bad drivers. Apple tends to push the envelope more on their products like making them thinner with better colors and better resolutions and designs. Wacom seems to do as little as possible while getting as much money as possible.

    It is a shame that Apple no longer appeals to artists like they once did and now just concentrate on the masses. I really do think they could create a killer cintiq product if they wanted too.
     
  25. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #25
    i used to use CSP years ago. amazing program.
     

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