MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[antonis]

What does a gaming machine consist of, that makes it so distant from a Mac ? It's just a standard computer built around a high-end consumer-class gpu. Done.

Hence, what is that special thing that apple 'will never do' ? Offer a high-end consumer gpu ?

 

[flat five]

What does a gaming machine consist of, that makes it so distant from a Mac ?

they look like this :



..except computers

(jk) (sort of)

 

[antonis]

Come on, that's not fair. A gaming computer's internals are not binded to a specific ugly sparky case.
Arguably, this one linked by koyoot a few posts above, has nicer looks than any mac pro.

Point is, the supposed 'gaming machine route' that apple would never take does not really exist. Apple did that in the past (e.g. equipping macs with the top of the line consumer gpus). That's all it takes really.

 

[flat five]

Come on, that's not fair. A gaming computer's internals are not binded to a specific ugly sparky case.
Arguably, this one linked by koyoot a few posts above, has nicer looks than any mac pro.

fair or not.. it is what it is.
googleImages -> gaming computer

Point is, the supposed 'gaming machine route' that apple would never take does not really exist. Apple did that in the past (e.g. equipping macs with the top of the line consumer gpus). That's all it takes really.

not at you but-- Apple is building the largest gaming platform right under our noses.. you just have to quit looking at the past in order to see it.

here are some hints though: ARkit, Metal, iOS, AppleFileSystem, appleGPU, 3D camera, AppStore, Swift

 

[vailr]

In 1993, Apple offered an all-in-one "Macintosh TV" (Motorola CPU, running OS7) that included a TV tuner.
http://www.apple-history.com/tv
1997: 20th Anniversary Macintosh (PowerPC CPU, OS7/9)
http://www.apple-history.com/anniversary
They were specifically meant to be for someone in a college dorm room setting to enjoy using.
Whether running macOS or Windows 10 (user's choice), artificial reality capable hardware will be a design feature in store for future "high end" Macs.

 

[antonis]

fair or not.. it is what it is.
googleImages -> gaming computer

View attachment 706864

I don't really see a point to this. Custom ugly cases are still irrelevant to the discussion. I've also built a gaming PC and it looks nothing like this.

not at you but-- Apple is building the largest gaming platform right under our noses.. you just have to quit looking at the past in order to see it.

here are some hints though: ARkit, Metal, iOS, AppleFileSystem, appleGPU, 3D camera, AppStore, Swift

Well, I'm just looking at the present, where apple is absent (desktop-wise). Many of the things mentioned above have little to no relevance to desktop gaming (like AFS, iOS, Swift). Others are currently a problem for specific gaming features (e.g. AppStore that offers no networking features, no demos, no regular sales like other platforms). Some of them are only wannabie features (AR, 3D camera) that might or might not be an important chapter in the future.

So, that leaves us with Metal (2) which looks good but only if it gets a high rate of adoption from the key players in gaming market. And regardless of all of the above, a high-end consumer gpu is still needed.

P.S. What is appleGPU ?

 

[flat five]

TV tuner

not sure if you're aware of this but in the U.S., over-the-air analog TV stations are no longer legal..
and haven't been since 2010 or so.. ie- there aren't any signals buzzing around the U.S. for a TV tuner to pick up on.
[doublepost=1499013572][/doublepost]

I don't really see a point to this. Custom ugly cases are still irrelevant to the discussion. I've also built a gaming PC and it looks nothing like this.

you asked what differentiates a gaming computer from a mac, right?
well, the internal hardware is more-or-less the same. (which you've also noted)

the biggest difference in the computers are how they physically look.

that and there aren't really too many native games on Mac.

people wanting Mac gaming should be voicing their complaints towards the software developers.. not Apple.. and Apple would (imo) be not too smart to chase after software that's to be ported to their OS.. they'd be smarter to flip the program and provide a platform for which games are being natively written for their hardware/software.. i'm pretty sure that's what they're doing.
[doublepost=1499013899][/doublepost]

Well, I'm just looking at the present, where apple is absent (desktop-wise). Many of the things mentioned above have little to no relevance to desktop gaming (like AFS, iOS, Swift). Others are currently a problem for specific gaming features (e.g. AppStore that offers no networking features, no demos, no regular sales like other platforms). Some of them are only wannabie features (AR, 3D camera) that might or might not be an important chapter in the future.

So, that leaves us with Metal (2) which looks good but only if it gets a high rate of adoption from the key players in gaming market. And regardless of all of the above, a high-end consumer gpu is still needed.

your (and many here) present outlook seems along these lines --> Apple should follow what's happening in PC world.
to me, that doesn't sound so smart..

P.S. What is appleGPU ?

http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/04/17/one-apple-gpu-one-giant-leap-in-graphics-for-iphone-8

(i don't know what it's called so i said appleGPU)
(probably posted that link 3 times now in the same amount of days.. srry but i guess people aren't reading it)

 

[vailr]

not sure if you're aware of this but in the U.S., over-the-air analog TV stations are no longer legal..
and haven't been since 2010 or so.. ie- there aren't any signals buzzing around the U.S. for a TV tuner to pick up on.

"Standard definition" (what you call "analog") TV signals are still allowed, as long as they're "low powered".
Digital HDTV signals do require an updated OTA (over-the-air) TV tuner, but are currently the best source for a quality "live" TV picture. That is: unless you're talking about certain 4K video sources via the internet.
OTA HDTV is even better quality than cable TV.
There are over 40 OTA HDTV channels available in Phoenix, AZ, for example.
Hauppauge makes several internal PCIe HDTV tuner cards for Windows PC's, which can tune both: OTA HD & standard definition TV signals as well as cable TV signals.
Elgato makes an external USB TV tuner dongle for Macs.
I'm unaware of any TV tuners that would work both in Windows and in macOS, in a dual-boot system. That is: offically supported with drivers (by it's manufacturer) for both OS's.

 

[flat five]

i don't know what to say.

i guess - good luck with getting TV tuners built into Macs for college students to use (even though you sound like you're about 70 years old.)

 

[mattspace]

you asked what differentiates a gaming computer from a mac, right?
well, the internal hardware is more-or-less the same. (which you've also noted)

the biggest difference in the computers are how they physically look.

No, the appearance is irrelevant.

What differentiates a gaming computer from a Mac, is that a gaming (desktop) computer is designed around user-upgradable retail GPUs, CPUs and storage, which are specifically implemented to be user-upgradable, and without a performance penalty for that upgrade capability (unlike blunderbolt).

 

[flat five]

a gaming (desktop) computer is designed around user-upgradable retail GPUs, CPUs and storage, which are specifically implemented to be user-upgradable, and without a performance penalty for that upgrade capability (unlike blunderbolt).

do you have an alternate source or two stating similar? or is this just your definition?

 

[mattspace]

do you have an alternate source or two stating similar? or is this just your definition?

It's a definition based on the observable market - gaming PCs aren't built with soldered CPUs, or on-motherboard GPUs, it's a world of sockets and and PCI cards. That's the most universal characteristics of the segment. CPUs vary, GPUs vary, appearances vary, storage varies, but what pretty much every gaming pc has in common, is the ability to replace individual parts within the box, with off-the-shelf retail upgrades.

Put it this way, I'd suggest to you that an iMac with programmable LED strips running Windows would not be considered a Gaming PC by people who actually buy and build Gaming PCs, regardless of its actual spec level (their immediate response would be "how do I upgrade the GPU?"). Whereas, a plain nondescript box, that has PCI slots to put a retail GPU or two and a socketed CPU, would, purely on the basis of being able to have whatever GPUs someone might want to use depending on what games they were playing and what performance skew they needed.

No matter what spec it has, the iMac is architecturally unsuited to being a Gaming PC, the slotbox is one inherently, and all the spec does, is define how powerful / good it is as a Gaming PC.

 

[flat five]

sounds like you're basically saying "a gaming computer is a PC"

if so, why are you arguing me about it?
what did i say that's setting you off?

 

[mattspace]

sounds like you're basically saying "a gaming computer is a PC"

if so, why are you arguing me about it?
what did i say that's setting you off?

Not at all, there are Windows PCs like Macs - non-upgradable, motherboard graphics, all-in-one's etc. They are not "Gaming PCs".

You asserted the difference between Macs and gaming computers is the appearance, and that's incorrect beyond a very superficial level. The difference is the thing that Apple does not offer in their desktop (or any current) computers - post-purchase user upgradability and reconfigurability.

When people suggest that an iMac with a GPU equivalent to that found in a medium to low end Gaming PC is somehow comparable because of component similarity, it misses the point.

 

[flat five]

You asserted the difference between Macs and gaming computers is the appearance,

are you sure 'asserted' is the right word?

iirc, i said that in jest.. even wrote that i was just kidding in the post with the glow-rider car picture.. (though on certain levels, it is true)

not sure why you're so butt hurt over it and feel the need to mansplain the basics of computer construction.. as if anybody posting here doesn't already know the general differences between the way macs are typically built vs pci-e slot based PCs..
😵

When people suggest that an iMac with a GPU equivalent to that found in a medium to low end Gaming PC is somehow comparable because of component similarity, it misses the point.

who suggested that?
me?
i suggested an entirely different route Apple is going regarding gaming on their platform and it's going largely ignored.

 

[mattspace]

iirc, i said that in jest.. even wrote that i was just kidding in the post with the glow-rider car picture.. (though on certain levels, it is true)

I apologise, if I've misread the thread or intention of:

you asked what differentiates a gaming computer from a mac, right?
well, the internal hardware is more-or-less the same. (which you've also noted)

the biggest difference in the computers are how they physically look.

I also apologise if my attempt to be specific about why that's a problematic statement seemed patronising.

i suggested an entirely different route Apple is going regarding gaming on their platform and it's going largely ignored.

Possibly because people suspect the pace at which developers will progress the emerging field, and GPU companies can produce hardware upgrades, will exceed the practical costs of replacing an entire machine to keep up with GPU progress for the people most likely to want to buy this sort of gear. The threat in the *Apple model is that customers can't afford to keep up with the pace of development that developers are capable of. Crysis was a great example - brilliantly innovative in its reality simulation, but couldn't be played on most computers because the GPU requirements were too high.

*clarification edit

 

[antonis]

do you have an alternate source or two stating similar? or is this just your definition?

Somehow, you've quoted another person's post with my name on the quoting title.


Anyway, back to the topic; It's a huge exaggeration to say that by equipping macs with high-end consumer gpus is like 'following the PCs'. It's just common sense. Game devs are not to blame here. You can't seriously expect that game devs will swarm around macs, when macs are mostly equipped with igpus and the rest of them with mobile ones. Bring the h/w and they'll come. Give them underpowered, highly expensive, shiny mediocre h/w and they'll go. It's common sense.

Why is iOS so successful in mobile gaming (and not only in that) ? They deliver the h/w along with it. Heck, the new iPad Pro beats a few current macs in performance. For real.

 

[vailr]

"8K gaming on 4 x TITAN X: 7680x4320 never looked better
The only YouTuber streaming in 8K uses 4-way TITAN X graphics cards"
http://www.tweaktown.com/news/58263/8k-gaming-4-titan-7680x4320-never-looked-better/index.html
Is any flavor of Mac hardware currently capable of 8K streaming? I think not.

 

[flat five]

Somehow, you've quoted another person's post with my name on the quoting title.

oops. my bad.

Anyway, back to the topic; It's a huge exaggeration to say that by equipping macs with high-end consumer gpus is like 'following the PCs'. It's just common sense. Game devs are not to blame here. You can't seriously expect that game devs will swarm around macs, when macs are mostly equipped with igpus and the rest of them with mobile ones. Bring the h/w and they'll come. Give them underpowered, highly expensive, shiny mediocre h/w and they'll go. It's common sense.

so say Apple makes a dedicated gaming machine following all the definitions here.. how good of a move is that?
at best, it's mediocre and i bet barely anyone would switch to macs for gaming.. i mean, why would they? they're currently doing just fine on PCs it seems.

i think most people (here) would love for apple to make a gaming machine but there's an underlying reasoning of swappable off-the-shelf GPUs in a mac instead of any desire for a gMac type of thing,.

Why is iOS so successful in mobile gaming (and not only in that) ? They deliver the h/w along with it. Heck, the new iPad Pro beats a few current macs in performance. For real.

i don't think i'm being very clear.
iOS is the future of Apple gaming.. and gaming in general.. desktop gaming is going to be a thing of the past relatively soon. (desktop gaming being sitting in a chair looking at fixed 2D panels)

that's what all/most of my posts on this page have been about.

I apologise, if I've misread the thread or intention of:

I also apologise if my attempt to be specific about why that's a problematic statement seemed patronising.

ok. thnx

Possibly because people suspect the pace at which developers will progress the emerging field, and GPU companies can produce hardware upgrades, will exceed the practical costs of replacing an entire machine to keep up with GPU progress for the people most likely to want to buy this sort of gear. The threat in the *Apple model is that customers can't afford to keep up with the pace of development that developers are capable of. Crysis was a great example - brilliantly innovative in its reality simulation, but couldn't be played on most computers because the GPU requirements were too high.

i think maybe the GPU requirements aren't too high.. it's just that with the way the GPUs are built and the way the software is written requires far too much overhead.. the setup is entirely inefficient and requires way too much power for the results given.
Apple's approach seems to be addressing exactly this and they're aiming to get far greater results consuming much less energy.
it's likely we'll see real time raytracing on iPhones soon enough through next generation software/hardware (and that the software is being optimized for the particular hardware as opposed to a general use software aimed at general use hardware)
real-time raytracing isn't even a thing yet on some whiz-bang pci-ePC/GPU combo.. and funnily enough, i think we'll see it happening first on iOS devices.
[doublepost=1499099094][/doublepost]

"8K gaming on 4 x TITAN X: 7680x4320 never looked better
The only YouTuber streaming in 8K uses 4-way TITAN X graphics cards"
http://www.tweaktown.com/news/58263/8k-gaming-4-titan-7680x4320-never-looked-better/index.html
Is any flavor of Mac hardware currently capable of 8K streaming? I think not.

and what?
so what, you know?
do you need that? no?

then why worry about it?

why not talk about your needs.. it's a better conversation.
reading about some hypothetical college student wanting to watch TV or some youtube gamer is roll-eyes

 

[BB8]

i don't think i'm being very clear.
iOS is the future of Apple gaming.. and gaming in general.. desktop gaming is going to be a thing of the past relatively soon. (desktop gaming being sitting in a chair looking at fixed 2D panels)

idk about any of that

Apple has completely failed to leverage iOS for games in any meaningful way outside of what developers have already done on their own. If anything, iOS should have been a threat to consoles, but they missed that boat too. If Apple were smart about gaming, they'd have done something like the Nintendo Switch years ago.

Meanwhile PC gaming is still growing and there is an epic truck ton of money being dumped in PC game esports. It is unlikely that segment will go away any time soon especially as increasingly high demands are placed on the GPU for VR and better quality displays.

 

[flat five]

idk about any of that

Apple has completely failed to leverage iOS for games in any meaningful way outside of what developers have already done on their own. If anything, iOS should have been a threat to consoles, but they missed that boat too. If Apple were smart about gaming, they'd have done something like the Nintendo Switch years ago.

Meanwhile PC gaming is still growing and there is an epic truck ton of money being dumped in PC game esports. It is unlikely that segment will go away any time soon especially as increasingly high demands are placed on the GPU for VR and better quality displays.

AR.. not VR
(on iOS at least)..
blending gameplay with physical reality.

 

[tomvos]

On a not so serious side note: It's funny how we are discussing why a gaming GPU and a Pro GPU are two different things on a Mac.
However on the iPad Pro, even Apple did not get the idea to distinguish between a gaming GPU and a Pro GPU. Following some reasoning on this forum to it's "logical" end, if Apple would put a "Pro" label on the iPad GPU this would make it a real Pro device, wouldn't it? 😛

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

This will silence all debate and arguments. All this hair pulling when we should just have dedicated category of machines (but you can use them how you wish).

Mac Pro Gaming Edition - 2 PCIE slots mini tower, gaming GPU options, 2 x m2 slots
Mac Pro Creative Edition - 2 PCIE slots midi tower, semi-pro GPU options, 2 x m2 slots, 2 SATA SSD bays
Mac Pro Render Edition - 4 PCIE slots - pro GPU options, 2 x m2 slots, 4 SATA SSD bays
Mac Pro Server Edition - 2 PCIE slots - integrated GPU, 2 x server grade PCIE SSDs, 4 SATA SSD bays

 

[Flint Ironstag]

This will silence all debate and arguments. All this hair pulling when we should just have dedicated category of machines (but you can use them how you wish).

Mac Pro Gaming Edition - 2 PCIE slots mini tower, gaming GPU options, 2 x m2 slots
Mac Pro Creative Edition - 2 PCIE slots midi tower, semi-pro GPU options, 2 x m2 slots, 2 SATA SSD bays
Mac Pro Render Edition - 4 PCIE slots - pro GPU options, 2 x m2 slots, 4 SATA SSD bays
Mac Pro Server Edition - 2 PCIE slots - integrated GPU, 2 x server grade PCIE SSDs, 4 SATA SSD bays

Nope. Most likely:

- single socket CPU
- dual socket CPU

Customize as you can afford from there.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Nope. Most likely:

- single socket CPU
- dual socket CPU

Customize as you can afford from there.

Those can be options too.