MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[Peace]

it is for providing DP1.3 feed and maybe USB3.1 data to usb-c only displays, not a thunderbolt related solution, neither provides alt modes, just DP1.3 over USB-C, and maybe USB3.1 signal data.

Well they seem to think it includes Thunderbolt.

MSI to launch first graphics card with USB Type-C connector
Moving on to ‘less exciting’ models. MSI is also planning to launch its first graphics card with USB Type-C connector. This is a new step in the evolution of graphics cards, as Type-C takes less space while offering a transport protocols for DisplayPort, Thunderbolt and HDMI.


This is at computex in June 2018..

About the same time as WWDC 2018.

mMP with NVidia cards on the way ?

 

[CWallace]

Well they seem to think it includes Thunderbolt....

Perhaps, though it could also be an acknowledgement that Thunderbolt also uses the USB-C connector.

 

[Mago]

Perhaps, though it could also be an acknowledgement that Thunderbolt also uses the USB-C connector.

Likely,

TB3 only supports DP 1.2 and 8K needs DP 1.3 for 30Hz or 1.4 for 60Hz so TB3 can't drive an 8K display, period.

I expect Apple's rumored 8K display, if it is launched, will use HDMI 2.1 and the new Mac Pro will have the same.

for the mMcPro its less complicated to support 8K.

Apple could update the USB-C Muxer chip to one of many that supports DP1.4, even given Intel released TB3 to public domain from jan 1'18 Apple may even develop its custom TB3 controllers, not just for Macs, iPads too.

USB-c alt modes are apart from TB3 specifications (TB3 its an ALT-Mode for USB-C media), current USB-C std Alt modes for DP, supports from 1.2 upto DP1.4 (there are few muxers with this capability already), ok thats just the connector and Muxer, you also need a cable solution capable to transport 80Gbps 6 feet away (and that's actually the complicated part).

Also a custom USB-C (tb3) solution allow Apple to offer a proper 5K Tb3 display based on single stream (sst) having available the second channel for a single TB3 channel, to allow Daysichain of TB3 peripherals or a 2nd 5K display (as was the former TB Display), or a 8K display in MST.

 

[CWallace]

I think Apple would want to avoid having both USB-C only and USB-C+TB3 ports as it could add confusion for end-users as to what port they plug devices into. The 2013 MP already has an HDMI connector so the 2018 model having one would just be continuing the trend and would allow connection to televisions and other video devices, as well. I honestly would expect the 2018 model to have at least two HDMI ports for this reason.

 

[Aldaris]

...but dongles

 

[Mago]

...but dongles

I have also a collection of HDMI cables at home, HDMI 1, 1.2 and now 2.. HDMI1 are ubiquitous and useless (ok still are useful to tie things).

at least with TB3 you can use std USB-c cables on short ranges (<2ft)

 

[William Payne]

The way things seem to appear judging by what you see on the back of video cards these days. Displayport seems to be winning. Which is fine by me, I guess it depends on what monitor you want to use.

 

[askunk]

I hope the TBD will be two: a 4/5K @120Hz and an 8K @60Hz.

 

[Mago]

I think Apple would want to avoid having both USB-C only and USB-C+TB3 ports as it could add confusion for end-users as to what port they plug devices into.

Actually there are not Thunderbolt 3 ports, all macs with TB3 what have are USB-C ports with TB3 alt mode besides DP1.2 and USB3.1 (there are a bunch of USB-C ALT-modes, even for analog audio/video output, few muxers implement as many), all what users will see is an USB-C port capable of TB3 and DP1.4 (TB3 itself has a dp transport mode, this allows to send video over fiber optic based TB3 cable).

And actually USB, TB3, etc are just implementations of the RS422 signaling on copper (and optic fiber for tb3), TB4 (as USB3.2) waits for the new 80Gbps RS422 transceivers to begin its development)

 

[Peace]

Actually there are not Thunderbolt 3 ports, all macs with TB3 what have are USB-C ports with TB3 alt mode besides DP1.2 and USB3.1 (there are a bunch of USB-C ALT-modes, even for analog audio/video output, few muxers implement as many), all what users will see is an USB-C port capable of TB3 and DP1.4 (TB3 itself has a dp transport mode, this allows to send video over fiber optic based TB3 cable).

And actually USB, TB3, etc are just implementations of the RS422 signaling on copper (and optic fiber for tb3), TB4 (as USB3.2) waits for the new 80Gbps RS422 transceivers to begin its development)

I'm guessing if Apple did do just USB-C one or more would have the Thunderbolt icon on it for clarity.

 

[Mago]

I'm guessing if Apple did do just USB-C one or more would have the Thunderbolt icon on it for clarity.

You didnt catch, its not Apple, Intel Moved Thunderbolt into the USB-C conector ALT mode, while it is branded as Thunderbolt 3, it is just another ALT-Mode for the USB-C conector rebranded as Thunderball 3, but its just another USB-C .

 

[mattspace]

You didnt catch, its not Apple, Intel Moved Thunderbolt into the USB-C conector ALT mode, while it is branded as Thunderbolt 3, it is just another ALT-Mode for the USB-C conector rebranded as Thunderball 3, but its just another USB-C .

so on a USB-C port, you can have a usb-c display, which gets a displayport 1.4 feed, or a thunderbolt 3 display, which gets a displayport 1.2 feed, and can combine both of them to get a single display that's still smaller than a USB-C/Displayport 1.4 display?

 

[Mago]

and can combine both of them to get a single display that's still smaller than a USB-C/Displayport 1.4 display?

usb-c has two independent streams, one maybe dp1.4 and the other usb-c or tb3, digital audio, etc, or you can have both streams on the same mode so, dual dp.1.4 or dual channel tb3 .

 

[askunk]

There has been a little discussion over which CPU will the mMP adopt.

Some said - if I got it right - that Apple will pursue the road of Xeon Scalable edition (silver or gold?), to differentiate the Pro from the iMacs and offer EEC, plus superior resistance over continuous load.

Some others wish for a different CPU, like a Threadripper, or more likely a Xeon-W like the iMac Pro.

As much as I believe we will find a server-class CPU (Silver or Gold, I guess), a question arises: the most frequent workflow for which Apple has been selling the Pros is video and audio editing. How comes the most powerful machine would easily be much slower than an iMac Pro or even an iMac when it comes to H264/H265 conversions?
Is it true that Xeon processors do not have the hardware to code them (is it called QuickSync?), therefore will always "fail" to compete on that task?

 

[JesperA]

How comes the most powerful machine would easily be much slower than an iMac Pro or even an iMac when it comes to H264/H265 conversions?
Is it true that Xeon processors do not have the hardware to code them (is it called QuickSync?), therefore will always "fail" to compete on that task?

Yes, its kinda weird that the Xeon E3 (the ones with Iris GPU:s that supports QuickSync) can be much faster than a high specced Xeon Scalable series CPU for some tasks (one of them being the one you mentioned). Thats why me and alot of other people need/wants a Mac Pro that we freely can throw in any AIC we want, 3-4 PCI free PCI slots after 1-2 dual slot GPU:s are installed would be lovely. In this case, 1-2 Intel VCA 2 would do wonders for H264 and/or HEVC performance in the next Mac Pro, but i doubt we will get that luxury.

 

[CWallace]

Is it not beyond the realm of possibility that Intel could add QuickSync to a Xeon for Apple? As I understand it, QuickSync is part of the iGPU, but a full iGPU is not required - the QuickSync microcode could be added separately. Intel made tweaked CPUs for Apple in the past and if doing so will keep AMD at bay...

 

[askunk]

Is it possible that with such powerful GPUs as the mMP can mount, there is no way to accelerate these tasks?

 

[AidenShaw]

Is it not beyond the realm of possibility that Intel could add QuickSync to a Xeon for Apple? As I understand it, QuickSync is part of the iGPU, but a full iGPU is not required - the QuickSync microcode could be added separately. Intel made tweaked CPUs for Apple in the past and if doing so will keep AMD at bay...

I don't remember when Intel has ever made custom silicon for Apple. They've done binning, and gave Apple first use of new packaging - but have they ever made Apple-exclusive wafers?

 

[mattspace]

given the claimed performance of new iOS hardware and its power / thermal characteristics, I have to wonder occasionally what Apple could do with the equivalent of a pci card loaded with A(X) SOCs

 

[Mago]

How comes the most powerful machine would easily be much slower than an iMac Pro or even an iMac when it comes to H264/H265 conversions?

No Xeon inherently processes x265, even the Xeon e3's, the x265 encoding feature on the e3's doesn't comes from the CPU cores but from the GPU cores, an hypothetical mMcPro being Intel Xeon-W or Gold/Silver or AMD Threadrippero or Epyc won't decode/transcode x265 using the CPU but the onboard GPU(s).

Same is valid for the upcoming iMac Pro.

I consider very unlikely Apple to offer again a 2P mMcPro, which ever they put on it, will be alone: Xeon-?? or AMD-Zen

 

[askunk]

I find it difficult for them to build a mMP with a Threadripper... even an Epyc would be strange. It doesn't seem Apple is interested in the Zen architecture. Otherwise, they would have implemented it already in notebooks or iMacs to reduce TDP and increase MP performance (that, btw, would sell even better for Macs than for PCs), especially given the tight bond between AMD and Apple.
I hope for an EPYC (they seem more powerful and richer in instruction sets than Xeon), but doubt they will, at least in 2018.

 

[Mago]

It doesn't seem Apple is interested in the Zen architecture. Otherwise, they would have implemented it already in notebooks or iMacs to reduce TDP and increase MP performance

No Zen CPU was ready on time for last Mac's update cycle, even Mobile Zen just appeared last month and none has reach the market yet.

The rumour about Apple adopting Full AMD on the Macintosh Pro and Macintosh mini isnt unfounded, many people didnt buy the delays on updating the tcMP, as no few people even alleged saw the updated tcMP prototype (a Xeon v4 with dual Fire Pro WX gpu -rx470-), it may wont be an ideal tcMP update but would have been welcome, some people blame no tcMP update to AMD, since timings for Epyc/Threadripper and TB3 public domain release matches the new Macintosh Pro release timeline (post 2017), both AMD and Apple wins a lot moving to Full AMD solution, and maybe Apple launches two different Mac Pros, an smaller based on ThreadRipper for dual GPU to please tcMP widows, and a monster mac pro based on epyc for 4 Gpu Mac Payloaders.

Also about a year ago leaked Apple commissioned a zen/vega custom APU similar to the ones on the next XboX, the leak was retired since it broke an NDA and the leaker was catched, but its truth, at some point a mac will arive with an zen/vega apu -likely an iMac/Mac mini/Macbook- the zen/vega apu dont beat high end Intel CPU with integrated graphics but its cheaper requires less power for a MBP13 like setup, even paired with an AMD dGPU or eGiPU can share the frame buffer, this cant be done with intel's igpu, on the other hands intel also readies an MCM APU-Like cpu combining a core cpu with amd-licensed vega gpu cores, maybe targeting Apple or they just get rid to develop GPUs.

Also the Popularity of Ryzen/Threadripper among performance enthusiast will easy to sell the AMD-Macs.

 

[Kpjoslee]

No Zen CPU was ready on time for last Mac's update cycle, even Mobile Zen just appeared last month and none has reach the market yet.

The rumour about Apple adopting Full AMD on the Macintosh Pro and Macintosh mini isnt unfounded, many people didnt buy the delays on updating the tcMP, as no few people even alleged saw the updated tcMP prototype (a Xeon v4 with dual Fire Pro WX gpu -rx470-), it may wont be an ideal tcMP update but would have been welcome, some people blame no tcMP update to AMD, since timings for Epyc/Threadripper and TB3 public domain release matches the new Macintosh Pro release timeline (post 2017), both AMD and Apple wins a lot moving to Full AMD solution, and maybe Apple launches two different Mac Pros, an smaller based on ThreadRipper for dual GPU to please tcMP widows, and a monster mac pro based on epyc for 4 Gpu Mac Payloaders.

Also about a year ago leaked Apple commissioned a zen/vega custom APU similar to the ones on the next XboX, the leak was retired since it broke an NDA and the leaker was catched, but its truth, at some point a mac will arive with an zen/vega apu -likely an iMac/Mac mini/Macbook- the zen/vega apu dont beat high end Intel CPU with integrated graphics but its cheaper requires less power for a MBP13 like setup, even paired with an AMD dGPU or eGiPU can share the frame buffer, this cant be done with intel's igpu, on the other hands intel also readies an MCM APU-Like cpu combining a core cpu with amd-licensed vega gpu cores, maybe targeting Apple or they just get rid to develop GPUs.

Also the Popularity of Ryzen/Threadripper among performance enthusiast will easy to sell the AMD-Macs.

I think Apple is just using AMD as a bargaining chip to just get better deals from Intel, if any of those old rumors was true or not. From the financial standpoint, it really don't make financial sense to switch platform to AMD for what is essentially a shrinking market in Mac as a whole.

 

[Mago]

I think Apple is just using AMD as a bargaining chip to just get better deals from Intel, if any of those old rumors was true or not. From the financial standpoint, it really don't make financial sense to switch platform to AMD for what is essentially a shrinking market in Mac as a whole.

May you develop that? I'm not sure you know a thing on what you write...

Switch from Intel to AMD don't add costs if you are due to update an motherboard (as the MP), neither implies refactoring neither recompile macOS (at least 99%, maybe some library still use soon to be deprecated cpu extensions discarded by AMD and on the same pipe discard by intel), even developers don't need to compile nothing (did you know AMD/Intel binaries are the same thing?) this is a much different scenario than to switch from cpu platform (as was PowerPC to x86, Intel to AMD both are x86).

The Whole PC market isn't shrinking the actual phenomena is people don't update their system as soon as before because there is no meaningful updates (until this Year Intel ruled Alone the Market and its processors barely evolved the last 5 years, this means a 5yr old PC is almost 80% as capable as a new one), w/o updates people delays buys, this creates an artifical sense of market shrinking, but actually is an latent demand scenario.

Bring more often new CPU and GPUs to the market with meaningful upgrades, and you'll see the money flow again.

I believe next year will see PC demand to grow again.

Noticeable IDC stats reflects Professional Workstations and HPC system increased noticeable its demand this year (new nVidia/AMD GPUs), check Intel raised high-end Xeon CPU price about 20%, also noticeable the Macs where the least affected -as most people considered switch to an mac as an upgrade-.

 

[beaker7]

I certainly hope they don't switch to AMD cpu on the big Mac Pro.

Epyc / Threadripper are great on price/performance but are still outclassed from a pure performance standpoint.

As we all know price/performance has never been a concern for Apple in the past, so why now?