MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[singhs.apps]

I don’t even know where the issues of buggy software updates came into the discussion TBH. I said before and I reiterate... I am aware of buggy updates and ALWAYS stay a few steps behind the curve for updates.

Or what’s the confusion .. but oh well !

Windows has got a lot of flak ( and in some cases it deserves a few ) but it’s likely ithe (relatively) open nature of its Eco system that’s causes a lot of tinkering but I never had issues with it in terms of stability ... not since windows 2k.. in which case it too would ‘just work ‘

I cannot use a graphic card of my choice because apple doesn’t allow it ( recent long beta testing not withstanding) when the options for graphic cards in virtually the entire x86 industry boils down to just two.

It’s choice of graphic card doesn’t just work ... didn’t when I got my 3.1s with some AMD card...screen tearing issues in view ports, slow performance... replaced it later with an nvidia 8800gt... and never had issues. My 3.1 died. Nvidia ? Still working...

Regarding Sony burning through Mac pros... you would think a VFX studio would not take chances on untried hardware ... at the very least it’s a show case regarding tcMPs touted ‘performance’.

 

[mattspace]

I've brought up the rarity of faulty modern hardware before elsewhere and someone linked me to an article about Sony burning through Mac Pros for some Marvel movie. Which I would assume wouldn't be the case if they used a cluster. The article, IIRC, made it seem as if sections were edited and rendered to final product on single Mac Pros.

Yeah, the graphics processor on the nPro is iffy, but so is whatever Sony did.

Editing Deadpool, they burned out 10 nMPs in Premiere. I can't see how there's anything iffy about that - they bought Apple "Pro" gear for a task - editing video, for which it was allegedly specifically designed, and it failed spectacularly.

 

[0388631]

Not the idea of using it. The iffy part is the graphics processor on the Pro. I believe that is what burned out. It's very hard to burn out a processor, even with the cooling Apple implemented. Just for giggles, assume 100K was spent on Pros. Any money the film earned and the typical Hollywood accounting makes it a drop in the bucket.
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Regarding Sony burning through Mac pros... you would think a VFX studio would not take chances on untried hardware ... at the very least it’s a show case regarding tcMPs touted ‘performance’.

Actually, that and what struck me was "Why aren't they using clusters?" A small budget film or an arthouse film I certainly understand.

As for Windows, Windows 10 has gotten good at locking stupid tinkering down while allowing you to tinker within means, if that makes sense. They're also getting more strict with software vendors. The only problem I see now is the 'forced' cumulative update roll up each month. You can pause updates, but that's a risk. It's not bad. But there is a small percentage of users who run into issues.

That said, people complain about Windows 10 being too different, but I see them trying to emulate Apple. I've been following Apple since the early 90s and I've always liked how things were done, to a point. As for video cards. Yeah, I understand your frustration. Seven years ago I had the chance to buy some primo Mac Pros at a huge loss to the seller, but I skipped because I found out the Pros were iffy with 3rd party cards that it wasn't okay with. It was a few 2009 models and one or two 2010s. Looking back, I wish I bought them.

 

[singhs.apps]

Editing Deadpool, they burned out 10 nMPs in Premiere. I can't see how there's anything iffy about that - they bought Apple "Pro" gear for a task - editing video, for which it was allegedly specifically designed, and it failed spectacularly.

I believe Tim miller directed that Movie. His Blur studio is a staunch 3DS Max house though in recent years it may have changed tracks. Max is windows only. Wonder why they decided to use tcMPs, when their regular PCs should have been more than adequate... odd choice that.
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Looking back, I wish I bought them.

Don’t remind me ;(

 

[0388631]

I believe Tim miller directed that Movie. His Blur studio is a staunch 3DS Max house though in recent years it may have changed tracks. Max is windows only. Wonder why they decided to use tcMPs, when their regular PCs should have been more than adequate... odd choice that.

Think you mean AutoDesk? 3DS Max is modeling software. Though I believe Maya is more commonly used to build 3D models in film, and that other software that looks like you're working with clay. On the other hand, Flame works on Windows, Linux and Mac, and I believe Flame was used for the movie. Though movies like it use a ton of VFX software. I wouldn't be surprised if the work was split with Windows and or Linux machines, but the majority of work being done on Pros.

In 2011, there was a nice article/write up on Water For Elephants and how it was filmed and how VFX played a roll. I feel that kind of movie would be easier on a nPro whereas something like Dead Pool or that new Spider Man movie would take more work and scene building. I think one of the best examples of heavily edited film is Gotham, the show.

Don’t remind me ;(

Yeah, I didn't buy them. The most expensive was a little north of three grand with an original MSRP many times that. Basically the business did some stupid stuff and it was a financier sale to make up for lost income from the editing house. They had a lot of nice stuff, or as I like to call it, spending when you've got nothing. I passed on a lot of stuff because I didn't need it. I did buy some framed posters. That's it. On the other hand, you can pick up recertified Dell or HP workstations with dual Xeons on the cheap now once you're a few years out. Yeah, it's old, but you can update the OS an it's still supported and not vintage.

If the future Pro turns out to be a mess, then HP or other vendors will happily pick up the slack. Though, with the stuff happening at AMD and their roadmap, it would be nice to have more options, and I think that's the goal vendors have. Someone said it pages ago, but if Apple keeps dicking around, eventually it would be wise for them to release MacOS in a special version made to fit various PC vendors. Fast hardware with the 'stability' of MacOS/OSX. That's a far out idea, but they make more in margins on true mobile products than computers.

There's been some interesting speculation with the news of them yet again increasing their R&D spending.

I know this isn't really news, but sports teams/stadiums are slowly dumping old Macs for the new Z machines. They're not the most sexy (HP didn't use BMW's DesignWorks this time around), but they get the job done and they're 'affordable' depending on how big your wallet is. The Z2 G3 Mini with the i7 is a sweet deal instead of the ancient Mini.

 

[mattspace]

Not the idea of using it. The iffy part is the graphics processor on the Pro. I believe that is what burned out.

What separates then nMP's GPUs from the retail part they're based on (Radeon 7XXX iirc) is that Apple has a custom expanded memory design. So either the design itself was problematic, and / or there wasn't sufficient thermal monitoring of whatever part was failing, so the system had no way to know it was exceeding a safe thermal limit for that part.

Given how endemic the problem appears to be, it's amazing it didn't show up in stress testing during the prototyping stage. Makes me wonder if, like the Homepod, it was essentially vaporware when it was announced, with production delays meaning it didn't get sufficient testing.

I believe Tim miller directed that Movie. His Blur studio is a staunch 3DS Max house though in recent years it may have changed tracks. Max is windows only. Wonder why they decided to use tcMPs, when their regular PCs should have been more than adequate... odd choice that.

Max is a modelling and animation app, not an editor. The editing team may have been a new addition to their organisation and the nMP was sold as a turnkey editing appliance. Had it been more turnkey, and less turkey, their plan would probably have worked.

 

[singhs.apps]

and that other software that looks like you're working with clay.

Zbrush is perhaps what you are talking about. It was and still is a game changer for organic modeling. Maya is heavily used, though most hi end vfx houses have their customization on top ( part of the reason why Maya took root because it was essentially seen as a DCC OS ) or have their own proprietary in house apps ( some of which are released to the public like most of the Foundry’s apps)
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Max is a modelling and animation app, not an editor. The editing team may have been a new addition to their organisation and the nMP was sold as a turnkey editing appliance. Had it been more turnkey, and less turkey, their plan would probably have worked.

Ofcourse I know that. What I meant is that Blur studios bet heavily on PCs, Windows NT and off the shelf software like 3dsmax, After effects when back in the late 90s most CG and vfx houses used SGI, other turnkey hardware ( like Discreet’s flame )... you know the ‘hi-end’ stuff.

So why would they even consider a Mac if they were editing in premiere (likely adobe tried to bundle the macs as the hardware of choice ? Unlikely. They have a bigger presence in the PC space) ..but who knows what the internal logic was. If Nuke and Avid can run on ‘PCs’ Adobe Premiere definitely can.

And if they were going Premiere on macs why not use FCPx instead... that said hardware going bust are a horror story in production work.

Was this one of the cases that prompted Apple to take a fresh look at the lineup ? Might be.

 

[0388631]

Given how endemic the problem appears to be, it's amazing it didn't show up in stress testing during the prototyping stage. Makes me wonder if, like the Homepod, it was essentially vaporware when it was announced, with production delays meaning it didn't get sufficient testing.

>Bendgate
>Antennagate
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Zbrush

Yes. That's the one. Google was giving me some very odd results. Yeah, I took a look at some articles and Dead Pool used north of 12 applications for VFX.

In 2010 or 2011, I watched an hour long breakdown of a new game and how Autodesk's tools came into play for the studio that developed the game. All I recall are people jumping ship, but the point is that power and efficiency is always required. Oh, and of course fine tuned software.


Looking at you, Crysis.

 

[H2SO4]

Yeah, the graphics processor on the nPro is iffy, but so is whatever Sony did.

Mind elaborating on the emboldened part?

 

[mattspace]

Ofcourse I know that. What I meant is that Blur studios bet heavily on PCs, Windows NT and off the shelf software like 3dsmax, After effects when back in the late 90s most CG and vfx houses used SGI, other turnkey hardware ( like Discreet’s flame )... you know the ‘hi-end’ stuff.

wasn't suggesting you didn't

So why would they even consider a Mac if they were editing in premiere (likely adobe tried to bundle the macs as the hardware of choice ? Unlikely. They have a bigger presence in the PC space) ..but who knows what the internal logic was. If Nuke and Avid can run on ‘PCs’ Adobe Premiere definitely can.

New project, possibly with new staff, so you have to buy new workstations for them - they're likely not ever touching macOS, it's just a Premiere station, so maybe they bought the idea that it was a cheap / zero config dual GPU editing station.

And if they were going Premiere on macs why not use FCPx instead... that said hardware going bust are a horror story in production work.

IIRC there were workflow issues with FCPX and looking at multiple timelines simultaneously, that meant Premiere was simply their preferred workflow / UI. Specifically, it's a way of working that you could do in FCP7, Premiere and Avid, but not FCPX.

 

[0388631]

Mind elaborating on the emboldened part?

Efficiency. Or lack thereof. The D700 is the culprit when it comes to burned out Pros. Xeons themselves take abuse very well, they're meant to be functioning 24/7 for years. If after 2 burn outs you keep going, it's obvious your hardware doesn't have enough muscle to handle it. Another issue is using Premiere. Premiere is fine for a lot of movies, but it doesn't network well, whereas AE does. It's something Adobe's working on (for years now).
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IIRC there were workflow issues with FCPX and looking at multiple timelines simultaneously, that meant Premiere was simply their preferred workflow / UI. Specifically, it's a way of working that you could do in FCP7, Premiere and Avid, but not FCPX.

That makes sense and also what I read. At the same time you wonder why they didn't plan it out more after the first few burn ups. Though I'm immensely curious to know if they had edited under a Windows environment in Premiere would they experience GPU burnup then with all the VFX they were running, not to mention everything else going on.

It was a good movie. Probably the only super hero movie I've liked, to be frank.

 

[H2SO4]

Efficiency. Or lack thereof. The D700 is the culprit when it comes to burned out Pros. Xeons themselves take abuse very well, they're meant to be functioning 24/7 for years. If after 2 burn outs you keep going, it's obvious your hardware doesn't have enough muscle to handle it. Another issue is using Premiere. Premiere is fine for a lot of movies, but it doesn't network well, whereas AE does. It's something Adobe's working on (for years now).
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That makes sense and also what I read. At the same time you wonder why they didn't plan it out more after the first few burn ups. Though I'm immensely curious to know if they edited under a Windows environment in Premiere would they experience GPU burnup then with all the VFX they were running, not to mention everything else going on.

It was a good movie. Probably the only super hero movie I liked, to be frank.

Oh, Ok. Personally I thought the entirety of the computer was designed for abuse. As in Apple took the W5** cards, changed the firmware and hardware to make them more resilient and then.........

 

[singhs.apps]

so maybe they bought the idea that it was a cheap / zero config dual GPU editing station.

Hah !

 

[Mago]

If an Mac don't fit your need (which ever mac), going to a PC vendor (Ready Systems) only justifies if you want some exotic piece of hardware not available at Amz, Ebay Newegg like Pascal GP100/GV100 GPUs, Intel Optane flash or some Xeons distributed only to System builders (as the Xeon-W, not yet available standalone). Otherwise put your hands on Supermicro, Gigabyte, Asrockrack and DIY your optimal system, you wont save that much but at least you have the power to choice.

 

[0388631]

I don't believe savings matter when you're talking about high end hardware. The argument for cost usually encompasses the low and mid range market. Oh, and gaming. At the moment, build prices are inflated to the high cost of DDR4 that shot up due to miners and video cards are obscenely marked up. For mid-high range, AMD's Ryzen Pro which has a different support track and more features looks like a solid investment. I'm really liking these Ryzen's and the next iteration should be more impressive. The third iteration should bring better speeds and efficiency.

 

[Joe The Dragon]

Support quality, options choices and new hardware should determine your choice more, as well. I'm familiar with SuperMicro but had to look at Puget systems. Titan doesn't list anything. Puget's chip offerings are somewhat old, where Intel has moved on. There's another builder out of Aurora or Denver, IIRC, who might have the latest and greatest. Puget's offerings are a little older, but offer better prices on the same hardware in same instances, such as video cards and high end SSDs. It's really up to the individual to decide what they want within their budget.

The only flaw I'm seeing with certain builders is offering RAM capability that exceeds Win10 Pro and Win10 Enterprise limits. Microsoft did come out with a Windows 10 Pro for Workstations which raises the limits and brings in some additional features that protect data. Problem is, it's difficult to get without jumping through even more expensive hoops.

On the other hand, I'm really loving what AMD are doing with their newer server and mainstream consumer chips. It adds variety where there was little beforehand. I'd love to see Apple offer both Intel and AMD in the future for Mac Pros or other devices.

Have a good one!
[doublepost=1517621898][/doublepost]I should add that I'm confident Apple will come out with something like the old system but modern. And with better hardware than what Dell or HP offer. At a premium, obviously. However, Apple knows they have a legion of Pro fans who don't want to go to Windows 10 because it's Windows. And no matter how stable and great Windows is, they'd prefer to use something they've evolved with over the last 20 years. It just works.

over 2TB ram?? I think you need a dual EYPC board with lot's of slots to just get to 2TB of ram.

 

[0388631]

As we're discussing server grade products, was that not a given?

 

[aaronhead14]

I realize that this comment isn't really contributing anything important, and I'm sure a lot of you feel the same so maybe it just goes without saying. But I am soooooo sick of waiting for this modular Mac Pro! It cannot come soon enough. And I can't help but feel that, even though Apple claims that they haven't abandoned us, their actions prove otherwise. It shouldn't take this long to develop a new Mac Pro unless the Mac team's focus is elsewhere. Really, really sad.

 

[0388631]

I realize that this comment isn't really contributing anything important, and I'm sure a lot of you feel the same so maybe it just goes without saying. But I am soooooo sick of waiting for this modular Mac Pro! It cannot come soon enough. And I can't help but feel that, even though Apple claims that they haven't abandoned us, they're actions prove otherwise. It shouldn't take this long to develop a new Mac Pro unless the Mac team's focus is elsewhere. Really, really sad.

If they're working on it, they're probably in testing or still developing solutions. Right now, this modular pro ought to beat what HP did with their modular system and how simple it is change stuff around without tools. The Pro system should have been left the way it was. Make it easier to swap products out and be able to use better video cards in the future and not be limited to what Apple decides should be in the system.

 

[CWallace]

It shouldn't take this long to develop a new Mac Pro unless the Mac team's focus is elsewhere. Really, really sad.

Assuming they started initial development in early 2017, a year or more does not sound unreasonable since this will not be a basic box with bits pulled off the shelf.

 

[mattspace]

Right now, this modular pro ought to beat what HP did with their modular system

Part of what HP did with their modular system is the new Z4 that offers core i9 with dual x16 pci slots, and starts for less than a third of the price of an iMac Pro.

The chance that Apple will match that vector - a cheap buyin on a relatively lower end, lower price system that isn’t packaged as a non-upgradable disposable appliance?...

 

[0388631]

Part of what HP did with their modular system is the new Z4 that offers core i9 with dual x16 pci slots, and starts for less than a third of the price of an iMac Pro.

The chance that Apple will match that vector - a cheap buyin on a relatively lower end, lower price system that isn’t packaged as a non-upgradable disposable appliance?...

Okay, you need to be clearer. The Z4 is a traditional tower workstation. The iMac Pro is an all in one. The HP Z4 does not yet have the X-Core processors. It was only announced a few days ago. They've yet to implement it. In fact, HP has yet to implement Windows 10 Pro for Workstations. The iMac Pro only offers Xeon processors, not the i9 Extreme processors or the i7 Extreme processors that will be offered on the HP Z4 in the near future. I see you're from Australia. Perhaps HP Australia is already offering those processors, but it isn't available on the US site.

Personally, I'd rather see some real world tests between the processors and then make a decision rather than relying on core and speed. There's a lot more to end performance than just speed and cores. For a Mac Pro replacement, as this is the Mac Pro thread and not the iMac Pro thread, going with the Z6 or even the Z8 line makes more sense. It has more avenues to increase power, memory and storage in a customized build.

At the end of the day, I suppose the i9 options are fine if you're doing VR, and I believe you personally are. But for anything "mission critical," a Xeon makes more sense.

 

[mattspace]

Okay, you need to be clearer. The Z4 is a traditional tower workstation. The iMac Pro is an all in one.

True, but more from the perspective that HP's Z-series is a range, not a model - they make "pro", which I'd define as "flexible enough to allow for user-customisation & reconfigurability" a feature of their entire power & capability range. You can get the lower-end CPU, but with ridiculously high GPU power.

As wonderful as the cheesegrater is, I'd still prefer to see Apple expand the "Mac Pro" range further down as well as up, similar to the vastly underrated Powermac 6400/6500 from back in the day, which had the consumer-focussed PPC 603e processor, but in a minitower, with a couple of PCI slots.

That's honestly not what I expect to happen, my pessimistic money is on the entry level costing the same as the iMac Pro, with "user expansion and reconfigurability" being the feature that replaces the 5k display, so that all other features being equivalent, the price is the same. In which case, there'll be nothing that comes even close to the price / flexibility / price to upgrade to cutting edge next year ratio of the Z4/6.

 

[0388631]

True, but more from the perspective that HP's Z-series is a range, not a model - they make "pro", which I'd define as "flexible enough to allow for user-customisation & reconfigurability" a feature of their entire power & capability range. You can get the lower-end CPU, but with ridiculously high GPU power.

True. The Z range covers a breadth of equipment, not just computers. However, you mentioned the Z4. So you began talking about a specific model out of a lineup, not the lineup.

Part of what HP did with their modular system is the new Z4

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As wonderful as the cheesegrater is, I'd still prefer to see Apple expand the "Mac Pro" range further down as well as up, similar to the vastly underrated Powermac 6400/6500 from back in the day, which had the consumer-focussed PPC 603e processor, but in a minitower, with a couple of PCI slots.

As in offering an i7 Extreme processor? What's the point? Apple doesn't like cannibalizing their sales for cheaper hardware with a wide range of more expensive hardware. Arguably, if you're not limited to FCPX as a person or a boutique studio that makes magic out of what FCPX is today, then HP and Dell also make workstation laptops with Xeon processors. They have been for years.
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That's honestly not what I expect to happen, my pessimistic money is on the entry level costing the same as the iMac Pro, with "user expansion and reconfigurability" being the feature that replaces the 5k display, so that all other features being equivalent, the price is the same. In which case, there'll be nothing that comes even close to the price / flexibility / price to upgrade to cutting edge next year ratio of the Z4/6.

It'll be more expensive and not in line. The Pro modular gives the freedom of upgrading within a limited sector. The oMP run into problems when using newer and newer hardware.

I would expect a wide variety of processors with the fPro. I would not be surprised if Apple offers the 8180 as a processor choice. Or two of them. Then slaps on a premium.

Of course, on a Windows based system (Windows 10 Pro for Workstations), you can slap four of them in an OEM build. That's a lot of processing power. In the end, it just comes down to what you prefer.

Windows 10 is now a perpetual license like MacOS. Though with the bugs MacOS has, the risks involved in that situation outweigh the small percentage of Win10 users who do experience issues. Microsoft now does a twice a year major update, with security rollups each month.

 

[mattspace]

True. The Z range covers a breadth of equipment, not just computers. However, you mentioned the Z4. So you began talking about a specific model out of a lineup, not the lineup.

As in, HP now offers an upgradable "Pro" workstation that is priced well down into the realm of enthusiast or "gaming" machines. That's the point - they're making flexible, upgradable machines for "pro" use, that aren't confined to the stupidly expensive high end.

As for Apple not cannibalising their own sales, that's exactly what they need to do - re-raise that pirate flag & throw the f%^king iMac to the wolves of a competitively priced, similar-specced macOS slotbox, and see how long it lasts. Right now, Apple has a serous malaise over pretty much every product they sell, and that malaise comes back to years of shielding their products from meaningful competition.

It'll be more expensive and not in line. The Pro modular gives the freedom of upgrading within a limited sector. The oMP run into problems when using newer and newer hardware.

Those "problems" were self-inflicted implementation details (EFI), they're not inherent to the design philosophy.

The price of keeping a slotbox cutting edge is the cost of whatever individual components you want to replace each year. The price of keeping everything Apple makes currently at the cutting edge (for Apple gear) is buying an entire new machine when you want to replace one part.