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As in, HP now offers an upgradable "Pro" workstation that is priced well down into the realm of enthusiast or "gaming" machines. That's the point - they're making flexible, upgradable machines for "pro" use, that aren't confined to the stupidly expensive high end.

What? HP has always offered workstations at various price points. As has Dell. It's not something new. Maybe it was rare to see in Australia, but they've always been around in the US. Not every company wants to drop 4-35K a unit.

As for Apple not cannibalising their own sales, that's exactly what they need to do - re-raise that pirate flag & throw the f%^king iMac to the wolves of a competitively priced, similar-specced macOS slotbox, and see how long it lasts. Right now, Apple has a serous malaise over pretty much every product they sell, and that malaise comes back to years of shielding their products from meaningful competition.
They should, but they wouldn't. They're still selling the Mini with outdated hardware. Probably won't introduce a new Mini. They sell the Macbook at a price point it shouldn't be. They don't care. Because they know their hardcore customers will still buy. Even if it means buying 8 month to 1 year old hardware. Or in the case of the Pro, relatively the same price for nearly 5 years.
 
What? HP has always offered workstations at various price points. As has Dell. It's not something new. Maybe it was rare to see in Australia, but they've always been around in the US. Not every company wants to drop 4-35K a unit.

Oh I know they've always done it. I brought it up, because the Z4 and Z6 have just had a big refresh, in the context of Apple's "pro" workstation range being a single all-in-one model, and the likelihood of that expanding, to be, at best another high-end-only model, which if we're very lucky, will be slot-based.

They should, but they wouldn't. They're still selling the Mini with outdated hardware. Probably won't introduce a new Mini. They sell the Macbook at a price point it shouldn't be. They don't care. Because they know their hardcore customers will still buy. Even if it means buying 8 month to 1 year old hardware. Or in the case of the Pro, relatively the same price for nearly 5 years.

On that we agree, except that I suspect they're losing a lot of hard core users, but picking up first time owners faster.
 
Oh I know they've always done it. I brought it up, because the Z4 and Z6 have just had a big refresh, in the context of Apple's "pro" workstation range being a single all-in-one model, and the likelihood of that expanding, to be, at best another high-end-only model, which if we're very lucky, will be slot-based.
When people say "all in one" it refers to something like the iMac and not the nPro. Or like the HP or Dell all in ones where everything's inside the monitor.
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On that we agree, except that I suspect they're losing a lot of hard core users, but picking up first time owners faster.
It wouldn't matter. They have better margins on phones versus tablets and computers. The R&D requirement to push computer systems is great than cell phones. There's more room to play with. Especially if you're the chip designer and rely on a third party fabricator. Opening up and running a fab location isn't cheap.
 
If they're working on it, they're probably in testing or still developing solutions. Right now, this modular pro ought to beat what HP did with their modular system and how simple it is change stuff around without tools. The Pro system should have been left the way it was. Make it easier to swap products out and be able to use better video cards in the future and not be limited to what Apple decides should be in the system.

I haven't used their new Z series, but I was rather unimpressed with the tool-less system in the ZX00s. Flimsy plastic shrouds you had to remove and that didn't give clear indications of when they'd latch and felt like you'd break them. The old Mac Pro daughterboard concept was a hell of a lot nicer and didn't require you to tip your machine to see what the hell you were doing. Didn't help that they didn't come with enough pins easily accessible to power 200W+ cards, I had to do some SATA molex daisy chain nonsense to get a Titan Z running (to be fair that was a problem with the old Mac Pros, but they have the excuse of being designed six years earlier for a world of difference in GPUs, and it was still easier to run the necessary power if you needed more than 225W.)

Windows 10 is now a perpetual license like MacOS. Though with the bugs MacOS has, the risks involved in that situation outweigh the small percentage of Win10 users who do experience issues. Microsoft now does a twice a year major update, with security rollups each month.

Windows 10 still can't get through more than one round of updates through Windows Store on the two machines and one VM I run without downloads getting stuck and me having to run wsreset.exe. I've never had a botched installation through the Mac App Store. I think the guys who are clutching onto an OS older than Snow Leopard are crazy (and I love that HP and the like offer you W7 downgrades still) but I have not enjoyed any part of running Windows 10. Even if you go with the "Adobe apps are the exact same" my retort is "you get to troubleshoot new, esoteric Adobe error code messages for another OS."

If the Mac Pro and/or iMac Pro updates don't pan out, I can see jumping ship no matter my affinity for MacOS, warts and all, but otherwise Microsoft doesn't get any credit from me for a more stable OS than what I'm using.
 
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Flimsy plastic shrouds you had to remove and that didn't give clear indications of when they'd latch and felt like you'd break them.

Without a date period, I'm guessing 2007-2011? If so, yeah, I agree with you. Very confusing. The new modular design uses denser plastic and it's pretty simple to toy with.

Windows 10 still can't get through more than one round of updates through Windows Store on the two machines and one VM I run without downloads getting stuck and me having to run wsreset.exe. I've never had a botched installation through the Mac App Store. I think the guys who are clutching onto an OS older than Snow Leopard are crazy (and I love that HP and the like offer you W7 downgrades still) but I have not enjoyed any part of running Windows 10. Even if you go with the "Adobe apps are the exact same" my retort is "you get to troubleshoot new, esoteric Adobe error code messages for another OS."
I haven't had issues on the 10 VMs I play around with. I'm not sure when I'll begin using it as a day to day OS. It's a little too much for me, personally. Then again, I felt like that with W7. Might be an issue on your end, AV or whatever.

The only problem I have with Win10 is how it sometimes resets certain settings. Once I set things up after a new install with all my software, I make a few images and place them around. I rarely have gone through the install process from start to finish. I picked that tip up from a friend about 11 years ago after I ran into a series of issues caused by yours truly.

I see the Windows app store evolving into what Apple has done because app store apps aren't the greatest from a UX point of view.

It's not an age thing. It's the "This isn't 1995, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get what I want," feeling to me.

As far as Adobe goes, eh. I splurged on the CS6 suite when people began buying it. For the most part, it's trouble free unlike CC.

It's personal use, but I know the apps will work whenever I launch them. Never an issue. In 10 years, people will look back and wonder why we reinvented the wheel when it comes to stuff like a perpetual license or CC.

Adobe can claim up and down they did it for piracy reasons. It didn't stop pirates. It's a money grab. Plain and simple. Adobe's future is reliant on teenager or kids pirating their software, getting used it it and if they ever work in a field that requires it, they'll buy Adobe products. Their products are drugs.

Their products are a household name. They're a verb in some instances. It's crazy.
 
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When people say "all in one" it refers to something like the iMac and not the nPro. Or like the HP or Dell all in ones where everything's inside the monitor.

I know what people mean by an AIO...

But right now, an AIO is the only "Pro" desktop computer Apple offers, since the "new" Mac Pro is vaporware (in the classic sense of "we've got something amazing coming, so hold off buying our competitor's products") until it's released, and the 2013, well it should go without saying noone in their right mind considers that a "current" product.

HP on the other hand, is doing what people have been wanting Apple to do - Pro machines that can be either Xeon OR Core based, with massive user-upgradable retail GPU capacity, where the cost of entry is vaguely sane.

It wouldn't matter. They have better margins on phones versus tablets and computers. The R&D requirement to push computer systems is great than cell phones. There's more room to play with. Especially if you're the chip designer and rely on a third party fabricator. Opening up and running a fab location isn't cheap.

All the more reason for them to give up on doing super-magic-crashed-ufo-space-technology, and just make a range of commodity slotboxes in premium chassis' that run macOS, except of course that would expose some uncomfortable truths about the relative importance of Apple's hardware design in consumer's priorities.
 
But right now, an AIO is the only "Pro" desktop computer Apple offers, since the "new" Mac Pro is vaporware (in the classic sense of "we've got something amazing coming, so hold off buying our competitor's products") until it's released, and the 2013, well it should go without saying noone in their right mind considers that a "current" product.

Weird description. The nPro was vaporware a year after it came out.

HP on the other hand, is doing what people have been wanting Apple to do - Pro machines that can be either Xeon OR Core based, with massive user-upgradable retail GPU capacity, where the cost of entry is vaguely sane.

Yeah. But people love their OS. I questioned the i9 a few days ago but it makes sense for VR people or otherwise that don't need lengthy rendering or complex work. They save a lot of money by not being forced to buy ECC RAM. And probably won't need super fast PCIE SSD.

All the more reason for them to give up on doing super-magic-crashed-ufo-space-technology, and just make a range of commodity slotboxes in premium chassis' that run macOS, except of course that would expose some uncomfortable truths about the relative importance of Apple's hardware design in consumer's priorities.
Sounds like someone doesn't like the touchbar. Where did it touch you? I'm kidding, but it is the stupidest thing they've come out with. Apart from the silly Macbook.
 
Weird description. The nPro was vaporware a year after it came out.

the nMP was at least *on sale* once it was notionally released. right now, its successor is bluster, and nothing more.


Yeah. But people love their OS.

Do they though? Look around and an ascendent part of the Apple community zeitgeist is how bad their software is getting.

I questioned the i9 a few days ago but it makes sense for VR people or otherwise that don't need lengthy rendering or complex work. They save a lot of money by not being forced to buy ECC RAM. And probably won't need super fast PCIE SSD.

Making a machine that can be all things to all people requires only sacrificing the ego of designers, and denying them the ability to show off "ingenious compactness".

Sounds like someone doesn't like the touchbar. Where did it touch you? I'm kidding, but it is the stupidest thing they've come out with. Apart from the silly Macbook.

it... it made me touch it everywhere, and there was no escape...

the macbook one would be a great product, IF it had a TB3 port, rather than USB. The constant frustration of apple products "you can see perfection from where we are, but we're not going to give it to you"
 
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the nMP was at least *on sale* once it was notionally released. right now, its successor is bluster, and nothing more.
Microcenter? They sell everything cheaper because they bank on you buying other stuff to make it worth their while. My current workstation PC build was done through them and I said close a thousand dollars in total.

Do they though? Look around and an ascendent part of the Apple community zeitgeist is how bad their software is getting.
Eh. People have been whinging about Apple as far back as I can remember.
 
As for Apple not cannibalising their own sales, that's exactly what they need to do

Well if I remember correctly, one of the Apple executives did mention a while ago that they weren’t afraid to cannibalise their own products, because if they don’t, someone else will ( Apple cannibalising the walkmans and dumbphones of other erstwhile kings and they did cannibalise their own iPods with the iPhones - But the results were superior products ). Not sure if it was some quote by an Apple executive or some Mac marketing evangelist.

This move from HP is a curious one and I am unsure if it is in some way to cater to the prosumer class who want a reliable name backing their HEDT PCs, or to offset the ( apparently) lack of sales of the higher tier i9xxes in the BIY market, or even to offer them as a stepping stone for Xeon, or if Intel itself is having issues producing these high core Xeon chips or whatever.

The so called ‘mega tasking ‘ consumers always existed, but AMD did throw in a game changing chip in that group and got toungues wagging, which might have prompted Intel to come up with a reply.

Anyway.. I think it is a good move and besides the entire lineup barring the iMac pro (and the Mac pros ) ran the regular desktop class CPUs and most purchasers seem to be fine with it.

So yes, HP doesn’t seem to really mind selling lower priced i9s, while reserving the Xeon for higher tier workstations. Meanwhile Dell is selling threadrippers in their Alienware desktops and marketing it as a prosumer system. Who knows Dell might soon follow with its own version of i9s and threadripper in their entry level systems.
 
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Well if I remember correctly, one of the Apple executives did mention a while ago that they weren’t afraid to cannibalize their own products, because if they don’t, someone else will.

They're happy to cannibalise products they don't really like any more. Problem is, there's a lot of people in Apple who believe the iMac is close to the platonic ideal of computing, they're the people who, once iOS can scale to a 27" screen, will be politicking to knife the Mac, in favour of a desktop iOS system.


Anyway, this move from HP is a curious one and I am unsure if it is in some way to cater to the prosumer class who want a reliable name backing their HEDT PCs, or to offset the ( apparently) lack of sales of the higher tier i9xxes in the BIY market, or even to offer them as a stepping stone for Xeon, or if Intel itself is having issues producing these high core Xeon chips or whatever.

To me, it looks like a hardcore turnkey VR station. For people want want a fast not-xeon CPU, and need to put a huge hunk of GPU in there, but don't want a loud "gamer" looking system from Alienware, and the i9 afaik is where we get enough PCI lanes to have dual PCI3 x16 slots, so when VR starts to scale well across multiple GPUs, or one gpu per eye becomes standard, this machine will handle it.
 
To me, it looks like a hardcore turnkey VR station.

Actually yes. That seems to be the idea and there is a lot of room for growth in VR tech in the coming years, so investing in a 'prosumer' lineup early is a wise move ( as was Apple's foray with the imacs pros ).

I am having a hard time keeping still. while wanting to pull the trigger on a PC and get cracking. If Zbrush ever gets VR, Mac pro or not, I am jumping in.

Decisions, decisions !
 
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Not quite zbrush yet, but I like the simplicity (+ being in the same environment as your work is something that’s really promising )
No quads though. Hopefully it will come in v1.

It’s an interesting period for such apps and their use case scenarios. On one side you have your traditional software that’s trying to move into VR while traditional VR apps are rudimentary yes but are trying to move up by offering a promise of more/better features down the line and perhaps innovating in areas that wasn’t possible with the 2D screen workflows.

Pretty stoked already. Ok June deadline apple. Else I am jumping ship.
 
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Yeah. But people love their OS.

No kidding .
I like Mac hardware as much as anybody - apart from most current offerings ... - but the OS is what kept me sticking with Apple .
Not to mention time and cost involved in switching all programs to Windows .
And I'm just a one man operation .

Then again, I'm still clinging to Mavericks to avoid the pains of adapting to later OSX versions .
That used to be different in Apple land , when backwards compatibility was still a thing .

Sounds like someone doesn't like the touchbar. Where did it touch you? I'm kidding, but it is the stupidest thing they've come out with. Apart from the silly Macbook.

Amen to that ;) .
 
the macbook one would be a great product, IF it had a TB3 port, rather than USB. The constant frustration of apple products "you can see perfection from where we are, but we're not going to give it to you"

Pretty sure the rMB will pick up a TB3 port whenever it gets native support in the m line of chips (no idea when that's supposed to be; trying to keep up with Intel chip roadmaps seems like an exercise is trying to make you go insane.)

It'd be great if it picked up one more port so you could charge and use without a dongle, but other than the price I think it's a great machine from what I've used. Maybe this is the year it finally kills off the MBA, but I imagine it's still got some life in it same as the non-retina MBP for educational or bulk buyers.
 
Pretty sure the rMB will pick up a TB3 port whenever it gets native support in the m line of chips (no idea when that's supposed to be; trying to keep up with Intel chip roadmaps seems like an exercise is trying to make you go insane.)

Intel isn't blocking Apple. It is primarily Apple is blocking Apple here.


"native support" in the CPU package won't help the MB. The CPU package is too far from the port edge for Thunderbolt. The MB suffers from the mismatch between Apple trying to pull all the electronics to the middle of the system, Thunderbolt placement restrictions, battery volume constraints , and being lighter, thinner than MBA.

Intel's TBv3 controllers are all about the same size. 10.7 x 10.7 mm whether single or dual. https://ark.intel.com/products/series/87742/Thunderbolt-3-Controllers



What Apple needs for the MacBook (if won't adjust the design) is something significantly smaller for single. Perhaps if there was a way to dump the embedded USB 3.1 gen 2 logic and use that from the CPU+PCH package they could shed more size. It is an extremely small space.

gKgq3Xph4u4ZiFhf.huge


https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Retina+MacBook+2016+Teardown/62149 ( step 5)
the top ribbon cable here is the 2016 design and the "red highlight" from the iFixIt tear down is primarily just the minimal USB-C switch required for power/usb-c/DisplayPort. You can't get a larger USB subassembly closer because the keyboard (pictured in black below and corresponding battery package in bottom of shell) are jammed almost all the way up to the port along with the mounting screw points for the lid assembly.

YXJyNCauwon5IPOQ.huge

( same step 5)

In short, there is too much physical stuff in the corner where the port is. Where the screw mount is or the upper corner of the battery is where you'd want to place a TBv3 controller. If you put the TBv3 controller in the CPU package you have even less of a viable solution.



"Native" TBv3 in the standard package is very likely to be very similar to "native" Ethernet in the PCH chipsets ( and CPU packages where the PCH is dropped into the package). There is a set of PCI-e lanes that can be flipped into a custom connection to a smaller, cheaper PHY chip that is much closer to the socket. There is still a PHY chip out by the socket; you'll just cut the cost and/or size a bit. The physical constraints for the PHYS to be placed within 1-2 inches of the port will likely remain the same.

When Intel's USB 3 gen 2 solution gets mature and becomes extremely stable in the standard chipset, dropping the USB 3 gen 2 from some of the TBv3 controllers would make sense for ultra small, ultra low power solution targets.

The bigger help the m class could do for the MacBook is drop the overall power requirements so could shrink a corner off that battery so could put a TBv3 controller in there. ( step 3 in the teardown has a larger daughterboard for the headphones and mic assembly on the right, but that runs much cooler than TBv3. )
Or Apple could unpaint themselves out of this corner ( add some thickness and some weight since more metal weighs more weight and therefore have room for TBv3 ).


The MBA is stuck in time and the MacBook is stuck on initial lightness competition with now nonexistant MBA 11". Apple is stuck in a catch-22 of their own inaction at this point. The 2008 MBA only took 2-3 years to kill off the MacBook. Going into 3 years now and MB and MBA still 'resolved' some sort of consolidation yet.
Apple needs to either merge them or move them both forward. One of the two. If keep two then the MacBook could move to 2.2 or 2.3 lbs and still be under the MBA's 2.9.
 
What I wish they would do is spin off the computer products to a group of people who are passionate about computers and innovating them. Get the computer product line out from under Cook and Ives where thin at the expense of features is the calling IE the laptops and mini's. Just like the latest MacBook Pro you have to have a basket of dongles and adapters to hook anything up to them. I fear Apple is slowly morphing into a content company. I would love to upgrade my trash can to the latest USB protocol and have the ease of other upgrades in a DIY format in a 2018 model. But I fear it will be 2019 or 2020 before that happens.
 
Even though many of the customers are asking for a box that supports off-the-shelf upgrades....
I don't believe Wally is alluding to that. I believe his is meant to express that Apple is thinking very hard and working with their hardware suppliers to make a professional system as good as the grater, intuitive to upgrade or service, and that won't become outdated a year or two from now.
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No kidding .
I like Mac hardware as much as anybody - apart from most current offerings ... - but the OS is what kept me sticking with Apple .
Not to mention time and cost involved in switching all programs to Windows .
And I'm just a one man operation .

Most software is universal, but there are companies that still specialize in Apple and they provide a product that can't be matched yet. So I can't blame any holdouts.

That used to be different in Apple land , when backwards compatibility was still a thing .

As operating systems evolve, the less legacy supported means performance improves. It's a fine balance between efficiency, improvement, feature set and minimizing regressions.
 
I think the iMac Pro gives us a clue as to why the new Mac Pro is taking so long to get out the door. If you assume they started in late 2016 ish, after the MacBook Pro fuss (as I think they allude to that in the Mac Pro round table) then we should be seeing something now.

As all the parts are available (even to the consumer) the Xeons, GPUs, motherboard chipsets are all there. So basically they have to put it all together in a chassis.

But looking at the iMac Pro the new introduction was the T2 chip. Now I would have a good bet that the integration of that into the system is that part that takes some time. As you need to direct the storage, boot etc process through that. If it is truly "modular" these have to tested against a larger set of hardware configurations which will slow the process of getting it out the door (different GPUS, CPUs storage solutions etc).

It does worry me that if it does include a T2 chip no matter how "modular" it may be, that it may significantly reduce the consumer upgrade options. As I imagine if you want that security feature on, then it will be looking for the hardware it knows. In an iMac that easy only the RAM is really upgradable, but if you start messing with SSDs and CPUs I am not sure it will recognize the system.
 
Assuming they started initial development in early 2017, a year or more does not sound unreasonable since this will not be a basic box with bits pulled off the shelf.

I dont buy this theory, Apple isnt developing a Xeon neither a Epyc cpu, they are only developing a motherboard a case and amost sure a OEM GPU (custom board/pcie inteface), it dont takes more than a month to get prototypes, even the GPU is much faster as Apple works on reference designs barely modified.

The MAC pro delay is justified on:

  1. New Parts Availability (Epyc / Xeon, Vega, nVidia..., Epyc APU)
  2. Architecture changes implying macOS (as eGPU/Tx Cpu support or something alike critcial for the MP new purposes or features)
  3. Wait for Market reaction to the iMac Pro (if the iMac Pro sells as hot cakes, there is no Mac Pro soon, luckily happened the opposite).
  4. R&D personnel busy (ehhm... at the most profitable tech corporation there shouldn be personnel shortage).
even the most conservative manufacturers release an all new system 3-4 months before the new chipsets is available.

So this year long wait for a Mac Pro is BS from Apple to hide some Surprise (I bet on AMD CPUs replacing Intel on Desktops).
 
If Apple is stupid enough to not just update the cheesegrater with modern internals, then I and many others will sadly wash our hands of Apple.

It is not any "smarter" than any other tech company, and comparing, say, the 8 core 6,1 to a similarly priced HP Z shows how pitiful Apple has become.
 
If Apple is stupid enough to not just update the cheesegrater with modern internals, then I and many others will sadly wash our hands of Apple.

Apple would be stupid to use the same exact external case designed in 2008 era. Optiical drives aren't a primary thing anymore. Being primarily dependent upon 3.5" HDD isn't either. Thunderbolt and its associated constraints didn't exist in 2008 either. Perhaps some of the basic principles they could pull along but the exact same case comes from a mix-matched context.

There is also the presumption that the case worked well. For rack mounting it was rather rack hostile. If the desktop pro folks are being peeled off for the iMac Pro ( and other Macs) then the group that this going to be that over is likely going to be slightly more hardcore. The folks who will stuff a $1-3K specialized audio or video card into the "revised" MacPro and then stuff both into a box with some other fixed equipment probably is one of those "hardcore" segments. It won't be the return of XServe and primarily chase after data center folks. The market exists.....

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/xmacproserver/index.html
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/xmacminiserver.html

that could drop down to just much simpler adapter hardware to hold the revised Mac Pro into place in standard rack unit dimensions (as opposed to hardware and electronics ).

Most likely this will be a new enclosure that:

1. Has no allotment for 5.25" or optical drives.
2. Primarily depends upon a boot drive that is Apple custom.
3. The secondary drives probably will target SSD M.2 format more so than 3.5" SATA.
( the design issue mainly is that the drives are primarily attached/inserted into the logic board; not but in a separate, modular drive section. That bring air flow and cooling issues which in turn are coupled to the case externals. )
4. more than likely won't be switching between single and dual CPU package slot configurations. It will likely just be one of those ( single CPU more likely of the two. ) Again internal thermals and layout is indirectly coupled to the exterior design.


So no, it most likely will not be almost exactly external case with a different different logic board slapped in it purely for speed-to-market. Once the industrial design team is looped in to significantly rework the internal, the whole thing very likely slows down to a same speed as redoing the whole case.




It is not any "smarter" than any other tech company, and comparing, say, the 8 core 6,1 to a similarly priced HP Z shows how pitiful Apple has become.

Price of product is rather narrow definition of "smarter". HP has been sold off twice in last 18 years. [ HP -> HP + Agilent -> HPE + HP ] which tech company is "smarter": one that adapts to the future as a whole or one that chucks sections when the margins don't hit certain benchmarks ?

What tech company is smarter... one that maintains their margins and growth objectives or one whose margins slide and growth stagnates? [ If think Apple is under invested in Mac currently, it would be extremely likely be worse if Mac division margins exactly matched HP/Dell's classic PC product divisions. ]


Apple's objective is not to be everything for everybody. In order for the overall Mac ecosystem to be healthy it needs enough users/size to be healthy not everybody. Apple chased the build boxes-with-slots for everybody strategy through most of the 90's. It was a bad outcome. It wasn't a "smarter" strategy.
 
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