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Thank you, very interesting post, the background is not always noticed.

Welcome. Oops there is also somewhat of a dust up between Nvidia and Apple in the GPGPU language front. 2014 is about the time Apple introduced Metal. It was also the time where Nvidia was dragging their feet on implementing OpenCL. In 2014, not sure Nvidia had a OpenCL 1.2 stack yet. (OpenCL 1.2 released November 2011 ). Apple has stopped at 1.2 with OpenCL ( Supported OpenGL and OpenCL Mac systems. ) [ Nvidia didn't hit OpenCL 2.0 beta until 2017 .... OpenCL 2.0 released in late 2013. Yes, Apple is worse ... MP 2013 stuck in time (older GPUs) and Metal part of this issue. Not sure which is the chicken or egg here. Apple telling Nvidia going to do Metal so they quit on OpenCL or Nvidia quitting on OpenCL and Apple turning to Metal. My guess it was a bit of both. ]


Along with the "sue the mobile GPU folks" . Nvidia started making hard moves to lock-in CUDA even more. For example July 2013 acquired PGI (https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2013/07/29/portland/ ) and basically mothballed OpenCL capabilities going forward in some of the acquired tools. It is understandable move given they are largely frozen out of the CPU+GPU growth markets. But Apple helped create OpenCL and they are doing several moves to piss OpenCL down the drain. At some point Apple decided going non open standards (Metal) was better than trying to go the open standards route. ( Microsoft was pissing on OpenCL too, but they did it to OpenGL too so not particularly new. ) This also puts them in competitor position. CUDA is an overlapping competitor to Metal (they are in no means equivalent but they have overlaps. )

Apple has a vested interest in seeing Metal succeed. I don't think Apple sees it as an "either or" position but if Nvidia takes the position of "Metal has to fail for CUDA to succeed" then Apple isn't going to play that game. ( that's somewhat the position they took with OpenCL )

Apple wants multiple GPU vendors to pick from ( in the Mac space. Volume for phones is so high they can go solo. ). Same reason why probably like AMD hanging around in the x86 space even though buying solely from Intel at the moment.
 
I don't remember him saying anything about "upgradable". He only said "modular", and it was pretty clear that modularity referred to the external monitor.

In a second interview he said "upgradable." People have debated whether he meant upgradable by customers or upgradable by Apple, which is fair.

But again, I think it's impossible that no one from Apple has done market research and figured out user upgradable GPUs were a problem. Maybe Apple will be willfully ignorant of their own market research, but IMO if they were going the stubborn Apple route they'd just force us all onto iMac Pros.
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Welcome. Oops there is also somewhat of a dust up between Nvidia and Apple in the GPGPU language front. 2014 is about the time Apple introduced Metal. It was also the time where Nvidia was dragging their feet on implementing OpenCL. In 2014, not sure Nvidia had a OpenCL 1.2 stack yet. (OpenCL 1.2 released November 2011 ). Apple has stopped at 1.2 with OpenCL ( Supported OpenGL and OpenCL Mac systems. ) [ Nvidia didn't hit OpenCL 2.0 beta until 2017 .... OpenCL 2.0 released in late 2013. Yes, Apple is worse ... MP 2013 stuck in time (older GPUs) and Metal part of this issue. Not sure which is the chicken or egg here. Apple telling Nvidia going to do Metal so they quit on OpenCL or Nvidia quitting on OpenCL and Apple turning to Metal. My guess it was a bit of both. ]

Also why Nvidia exists on the edges of the Mac with their retail driver. Just enough work to keep CUDA on the Mac on life support to annoy Apple with.
 
Considering the iMac Pro was meant to be the top-end Mac and on that machine the GPU is not really upgradeable (it is soldered to the system board) and considering the GPU is the one component that sees the most frequent development, if any component on the Mac Pro will be upgradeable, common sense says it would be the GPU.

And Apple has been happy to allow third parties to offer upgrades to CPUs, GPUs and SSDs for the Mac Pro so common sense says that they will allow third-party GPU updates even if they also offer their own "official" ones.
 
But again, I think it's impossible that no one from Apple has done market research and figured out user upgradable GPUs were a problem. Maybe Apple will be willfully ignorant of their own market research, but IMO if they were going the stubborn Apple route they'd just force us all onto iMac Pros.
They released the trashcan Mac Pro and never referred to the lack of upgradability as an issue. They only pointed out the thermal problems.
They seem to favour eGPU. I would be surprised if the next Mac Pro came with PCIe slots.
 
Considering the iMac Pro was meant to be the top-end Mac and on that machine the GPU is not really upgradeable (it is soldered to the system board) and considering the GPU is the one component that sees the most frequent development, if any component on the Mac Pro will be upgradeable, common sense says it would be the GPU.

the premise there is twisted. There is not much indication that the iMac Pro was meant to be the end all permanent capstone top-end Mac. Its primary purpose is to be more "horsepower" than any iMac has ever had. It happened to race past the current Mac Pros, but that isn't particularly hard since the MP is comatose with 2013 technology and the iMac Pro has 2017 technology. Yeah, the iMac 4 years later should be catching up to at least some of the Mac Pros from years gone by. That is more than two Moore's law cycles ( ~18 months x 2 )

The primary reason the iMac Pro is on top now is that the Mac Pro is comatose.

The iMac Pro's GPU is good enough for very large number of folks. For more than a decent number it is overkill that will last for their workloads for 3-7 years until they cycle through to another machine.

The second issue is the "GPU most frequent". Really? Lots of stuff gets lost in the Nvidia vs AMD fanboy wars. Nvidia's Pascal came out in 2016 and hasn't really been replaced since. That is about 2 years (something new is coming within a year). Nvidia isn't particularly doing any better than Intel is with the "Xeon E5"/"Xeon W" class CPUs in terms of pace. They milk the architecture roll out longer than Intel does but by and large they have the same slowing fabrication process technology limitations affecting everyone else in the "big die processor" world. ( Volta is being rolled out to Quadro and probably into Titan eventually but same baseline microarchitecture that will be about two years old at that point when they finish. )


AMD has been behind the curve relative to both of those vendors ( although it seems like they have shooting themselves in the foot at this point. ). Vega hasn't effectively filled Polaris slot. Again it is activity by dropping different ranges in different years and doing a couple of rebadges. It is sales pitch/price movement but not major arch/performance moves.

GPU's pace hasn't been better. Top end GPUs thirst for higher power limits (TDP) has been what has been on a lust curve. Intel has normalized where the workstation CPU TDP is. The GPU folks have been on a growth curve in terms of max power levels.

And Apple has been happy to allow third parties to offer upgrades to CPUs, GPUs and SSDs for the Mac Pro so common sense says that they will allow third-party GPU updates even if they also offer their own "official" ones.

People have done CPU upgrades but not sure Apple has really be happy about that (at least while still covered by AppleCare and/or warranties). Apple has had their own SSD path for a while in new Mac systems.

I think what is more commonsense is that Apple needs to allow some room for 2nd and 3rd SSDs and GPUs that aren't on Apple's specific path. The CPUs aren't really an issue. Most of that is really when the systems are 3+ years old when the price for used CPUs starts coming down and bargain hunters get more active.
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They released the trashcan Mac Pro and never referred to the lack of upgradability as an issue. They only pointed out the thermal problems.
They seem to favour eGPU. I would be surprised if the next Mac Pro came with PCIe slots.

They did point out "high bandwidth" as being an issue they are missing (with MP 2013 and defacto missed by the iMac Pro). You can't cover x8-x16 bandwidth with TBv3. So eGPU isn't a panacea. Saying "high bandwidth" is covered by eGPU enclosures is just being willfully ignorant. They'd be walking away from RAW 8K video capture. They'd be putting a throttle on their GPU solutions. Games will play OK (better than the embedded GPU) , but high data throughput GPGPU workloads won't.

iMac Pro discards about 20 PCI-e v3 lanes of throughput from the CPU. Not sure who you tackle the "high bandwidth" needs market throwing away that much. eGPU are a poor substitute for that. ( going to a grotesque number of TB ports, 6+ , isn't really effective either in cost or bandwidth).
 
But the Mac Pro will have some internal GPU(s). If you want to upgrade, buy a new system. Apple seemed content to offer that solution with the trash can.
 
...
Also why Nvidia exists on the edges of the Mac with their retail driver. Just enough work to keep CUDA on the Mac on life support to annoy Apple with.

It isn't just purely to annoy Apple. CUDA is more valuable to Nvidia if it is on more platforms. If it is available on Linux, Windows, macOS , and AIX then it appears less of a lock in than if it is was only Windows or Windows+Linux. That breadth helps with the "you're really not locked in" perception.

Likewise Metal on iOS , tvOS , and macOS is better than Metal on just iOS for Apple.

Nvidia is also using it as leverage with Apple. They won't to do custom work for Apple at the same rates as AMD because they feel they can unleash their angry CUDA mob on Apple. It is probably more agitating than annoy.

Nvidia still has to cover macOS a little bit for deployed GPUs since 2014 is still in Apple's Vintage/Obsolete window.
There is OpenGL/OpenCL https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202823 that is being used in the newer macOS updates.

Metal 2 is still inside the 2014 window also.
" ....
Metal 2
Supported by the following Mac models:

  • MacBook (Early 2015 or newer)
  • MacBook Pro (Mid 2012 or newer)
  • MacBook Air (Mid 2012 or newer)
  • Mac mini (Late 2012 or newer)
  • iMac (Late 2012 or newer)
  • Mac Pro (Late 2013 .... "
https://support.apple.com/kb/SP765?locale=en_US

Until the 2014 models age out of Metal support coverage, Nvidia still should be covering macOS. [ I suspect that is the more annoying aspect for Nvidia, but if they screw it up they are doomed in the Apple space. ]


Finally, eGPU were coming with TBv3 so really doesn't make any sense for Nvidia to completely dump their macOS skills. If that takes off there is an opening. If AMD had managed to go bankrupt and Intel hadn't spun up a discrete GPU business then Nvidia would have needed to be there (and would decisively have upper hand on Apple in terms of pricing). ( especially after Apple decided they can make their own GPUs. because if all the GPU vendors completely piss off Apple they could just do their own. Once Apple has a GPU 'front end" and the GPU "back end" then making a "big" GPU is really just an issue of scaling up the number of back end units. It would take several years to evolve to the point of mid-range desktop, but needlessly pissing them off isn't a good thing. If Apple rolls out Tx (T2 follow ons) to all Macs there will be an Apple GPU in all of them anyway over time doing small scale stuff. ). In short, it doesn't make sense for Nvidia to completely burn the bridge behind them. It is the 'cooperate on some stuff and complete on others' norm for larger Silicon Valley companies.
 
So i had an idea yesterday. I have been following this board, the old one and some more for the last 5 years and never really been keen to make a post. However i do understand the current situation and i think a have a good idea what people want. So, here we go...
What if instead of one modular mac pro, that will never really please everyone we split the hole thing into separate things. We now have the trashcan, iMac and the iPad all not perfect, but all have their niche where they work really well. For the trashcan that might mean it looks good.
So, instead of having one machine, that is supposed to meet everybodys needs, apple could just split it up into these 3 already existing products. You would have a display, with something like the iPad Pro internal, but two standard GPUs on the back, that can be switched by the user and you could basically put anything in there you want. Nvidia and AMD. So Display+GPU is one box. Than you would have the old Trashcan, but without the GPU, eliminating most of the thermal problems it has. Two CPU slots, RAM and Storage - second box. And finally the iPad, that can be paired with the two of them acting as a Wacom tablet or similar.
Put the 3 together and you could build nearly everything you want, then its just a software issue to make all work perfectly together and that each could benefit from the other.
But the really great thing is, that they would not only work together. You could pair just the display with a MBPro to make it game really well for example. Or you just need to crunch numbers and add the CPU Box to you MBPro or iMac. In my honest opinion this would eliminate most of the issues people are having and could meet almost anybody demands. And You would not have an ugly case or other stuff that might keep apple from liking it. Just the trashcan box, maybe a bit smaller and with new internal design to keep two CPUs cool, which i think is possible if you ditch the GPUs. Then the Display, with just two big GPUs and a smaller CPU, that would Thermally work as well.
Let me know what you guys think...
Still optimistic that apple could at least be able to come up with something exiting.
 
Sonnet is talking about 2018 being the year for multi eGPUs while Apple’s recommended eGPUs for 10.3.4 is all AMD (with support for multi eGPUs)...

Apple's support configuration matrix only really cover what Apple sells. They "tech specs" pages are governed by sales marketing input as much as hard core technology. Coverage for baseline AMD GPUs tech that is used in other Macs is going to be in the supported configuration matrix for eGPUs also since most of that is already done and has deep QA coverage.


http://nabhub.com/interview/189/mul...nderbolt-with-sonnet-technologies-at-nab-2018


Q : Finish the sentence: 2018 will be the production industry’s year of _____

A : Multi-GPU acceleration over Thunderbolt.”

Sonnet sells alot of Thunderbolt periiperhals so the answer isn't going to be something they don't sell. :)
That said I think the answer above that which mentions "Desktop and portable Thunderbolt 3 to eGPU PCIe... " is implicitly weighted more toward portable than desktop. The number of Windows "laptop workstations" with Thunderbolt 3 is likely to grow as least as big as the MBP market in 2018. Mac will certainly be part of the eGPUs but Windows has had eGPU (not beta coming soon.... actually deployed in the OS ) for a year now. The hardware is going to catch up to what Windows can support this year. That will be a new bubble percolating through the market.

Not that desktop "boxes with slots" are going to disappear in 2018-19, but it won't be as unique and rigidly segmented as before.



Headline sure to start some Nvidia vs AMD fanboy dust up .... good for more than a few ad revenue generation clicks.
Nvidia drops drivers out of synch with macOS. Once macOS releases the feature than Nvidia can match up their drivers to it. If this is still evolving as a somewhat rapid pace then it might be macOS 10.14 until Nvidia merges in and off of Apple's "official" support matrix.

eGPUs present too much of an opportunity for Nvidia to sit out over the long term. Short term they have been in a bit of a dust with with releasing through official drivers and cooperation with the macOS graphics stack. Partly because not a high priority for either side ( Apple or Nvidia).
 
They released the trashcan Mac Pro and never referred to the lack of upgradability as an issue. They only pointed out the thermal problems.

The plan on the inside was to offer GPU upgrades for the tcMP, but they could never get a GPU to thermally fit, and they never had any real strong interest because GPU upgrades would have to probably be done in store and it would be a giant mess.

Even if they won't say it (and they won't, because they're Apple), the sales weren't as good as the cMP. So they are going to go back and ask themselves what happened to tank the sales since the cMP.

If the tcMP was selling well and the only problem was thermals, they never would have considered replacing it with the iMac Pro, and I don't think they would have released the iMac Pro. But the tcMP was a failure by all of Apple's metrics, not just thermally.

Apple is going to be careful with what they say publicly. But it wasn't a success for more than just thermals.
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eGPUs present too much of an opportunity for Nvidia to sit out over the long term. Short term they have been in a bit of a dust with with releasing through official drivers and cooperation with the macOS graphics stack. Partly because not a high priority for either side ( Apple or Nvidia).

The APIs for doing eGPU are known. There is even a kernel extension to patch up the nVidia drivers. I'm not sure why nVidia hasn't included support themselves. But they don't need Apple. Apple added a hot plug event to the GPU driver API and nVidia just hasn't implemented it correctly.

I have heard some scuttlebutt that there are more bugs inside the nVidia driver across all platforms with eGPU, and that nVidia isn't ready for eGPU of no fault to Apple.

Could be a new retail driver release coming, or they may be playing hardball with Apple. But they don't need Apple's involvement to support eGPU.
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Nvidia is also using it as leverage with Apple. They won't to do custom work for Apple at the same rates as AMD because they feel they can unleash their angry CUDA mob on Apple. It is probably more agitating than annoy.

Yeah, that's what I meant. I was just being a little colorful. From nVidia's end it's leverage. But from Apple's end it's annoying. Apple wants to get everyone on to Metal and nVidia is keeping CUDA on Mac on life support.
 
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Sonnet sells alot of Thunderbolt periiperhals so the answer isn't going to be something they don't sell.

Ofcourse. My interest lay in the ‘multi egpu’ term used in both articles ...that is... How does this relate to the unicorn nMP ?

One way the Mac Pro could differentiate would be some way to get two ( or more) internal GPUs working in tandem via some nvlink kind of connection, thereby vastly outperforming eGPUs and single big cards.

Nvidia would like to keep a foot in the door on the Mac platform nevertheless... but if Mac pros can pull off an nvlink kind of bridge (for vega ) then it could sour Nvidia’s plans... no way can they compete using eGPUs over TB.
 
There is not much indication that the iMac Pro was meant to be the end all permanent capstone top-end Mac.

If the plan was not to make the iMac Pro the most powerful Mac available, why did Apple wait 10 months after announcing the iMac Pro to then announce they were developing a new Mac Pro that would be more than a year away (and possibly two)? The new Mac Pro should have been produced in parallel with the iMac Pro and it should have been announced along with the iMac Pro at WWDC.

This led to the (correct, IMO) perception that Apple was planning to make the iMac Pro the Mac Pro replacement and the feedback - blowback, really - that Apple received on this forced them to re-consider that decision and go forward with a new Mac Pro which necessitated the April 2017 meeting with some of those "influencers" who had been criticizing Apple for replacing the 2013 Mac Pro with an iMac Pro at the top.



Its primary purpose is to be more "horsepower" than any iMac has ever had.

Per Apple's own statements, the current Mac Pro makes up a couple percentage points of desktop Mac sales, which themselves make up about 20% of all Mac sales. Now you can argue (somewhat successfully) that the Mac Pro sells so poorly because of the outdated components and lack of expandability, but let us be honest - even if the Late 2013 model had been the "cheese grater" with the latest CPUs, GPUs and connectivity, it will would have accounted for single-digit percentages due to it's cost and all that "horsepower".

So why would Apple want to bifurcate that market even more by also launching a comparatively powerful iMac? If you wanted a 27" (or larger) 5K display with TB3 connectivity you could get them from LG and connect it to your Late 2017 Mac Pro.


The primary reason the iMac Pro is on top now is that the Mac Pro is comatose.

And the Mac Pro is comatose because the iMac Pro was intended to replace it.



The second issue is the "GPU most frequent". Really? Nvidia's Pascal came out in 2016 and hasn't really been replaced since...

I don't game nor do I do workstation-level visualization, but the impression I have been seeing is that even if the base architecture is not changing, we're still seeing process improvements that generate more performance out of these architectures. So if you are doing something that can generate a real-return benefit from those enhancements, you want to be able to adopt them without having to replace the entire system.
 
Latest AMD GPU are not bad at all, the problem is nVidia still much better...

A Dreasm would be to have the AMD Epyc and nVidia Pasva/Volta on the mMP, even if on proprietary PCIe ( pascal GPU has a Mezzanine version which could be adapted to any form factor).

Being realistic, little chance, I think 90% for proprietary PCIe and AMD Based GPU solution (modular for Apple's BTO toolchain), about CPU I think there are very realistic chance to see AMD Epyc on the mMP but this is not an deal breaker.
 
There is not much indication that the iMac Pro was meant to be the end all permanent capstone top-end Mac.

I've heard that most definitely was the plan.

They've backtracked for some reason I think upgradability is one of those reasons probably. Apple honestly would have been perfectly happy to leave a down clocked Vega 64 as the top end, but something happened to tell them that wasn't acceptable. My guess continues to be they demoed the iMac Pro to a few VIP customers who probably threw a fit.

Cook's comments offers a few clues. He said the Mac Pro would be intended for an audience that always wanted to have the fastest available components. You can read into a few things like upgradability and capabilities there. To me it also points to Apple maybe coming around to including workstation cards. Could have been talking about down clocked Vega in the iMac Pro, but I think it probably meant something more, or even dual GPU.

The other thing Tim Cook talked about was customizability. Some people need dual GPU, some don't. So there's a lot to read into about how Apple sees a Mac Pro as different than an iMac Pro as well.

Cook could have been talking about people who want to always have the fastest components by buying a brand new Mac Pro every year, but I doubt that. I also think Apple knows they may not always be the vendor for those components. For example, 8k capture is growing in important, is only available as a PCIe card, and I doubt Apple is going to supply that card. But they also want that market.

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If the plan was not to make the iMac Pro the most powerful Mac available, why did Apple wait 10 months after announcing the iMac Pro to then announce they were developing a new Mac Pro that would be more than a year away (and possibly two)? The new Mac Pro should have been produced in parallel with the iMac Pro and it should have been announced along with the iMac Pro at WWDC.

I think generally you're on the right track, but from what I remember the iMac Pro was announced after the Mac Pro announcement. But clearly the Mac Pro wasn't started until well into the iMac Pro's development.
 
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Ofcourse. My interest lay in the ‘multi egpu’ term used in both articles ...that is... How does this relate to the unicorn nMP ?

I don't think there is very tight coupling. I think that the next Mac Pro will only have 1-2 standard PCI-e slots. 1-2 slots probably covers a large fraction older Mac Pro users. A multiple, double width slot external PCI-e enclosure would be the "go to" solution Apple would point to for those who needed 4 - 6 slots. Most "I want a HP Z8 clone box" folks would not be happy, but Apple would snare some hardware core macOS folks who were not price sensitive.

Having zero standard PCI-e slots isn't going to work for the next Mac Pro. Sonnet is smiling on those multiple GPU enclosures because they probably make them a sizable chunk of money. Not all Mac Pro users have a huge price elasticity. Even more so when they are moving up cards that they already own ( e.g. higher end video or audio capture).

Although the default Mac Pro standard configs probably won't include dual GPUs more than likely there will be a BTO option that is dual GPUs. There really isn't a good reason why that 2nd GPU slot shouldn't be standard PCI-e.



One way the Mac Pro could differentiate would be some way to get two ( or more) internal GPUs working in tandem via some nvlink kind of connection, thereby vastly outperforming eGPUs and single big cards.

Apple has never supported Crossfire/SLI in previous macOS. I doubt they are going to start now and largely solely only for the Mac Pro. Apple seems to be more adapt at asymmetric GPU contexts (as such primarily focused on eGPU for this and probably next iteration of macOS). I also don't see how the eGPUs with dual help drive something like nvlink much either. If two GPUs are sharing the same x4 link then how do you drag over twice as much data to fill up both GPUs faster? ( consumer PCs will split the x16 into two x8's coupled with backchannel GPU links. Not 4's . )

Honestly I never understood why Apple blew R&D resources on Crossfire only in Windows for the Mac Pro 2013 when there were so many other latent problems they could have unsurfaced and fixed in the GPUs in the macOS space before launch. ( those weren't rock solid GPUs so extra effort into the alternative Windows gaming space (or some narrow corner case pro app) really added a whole lot of nothing in the overall value proposition. )

Those backchannel paired solutions typically work better when both GPUs are identical. Two symmetric cards. Apple has the two symmetric card target with the MP 2013 and that didn't save the product. The critical "missing piece" was not Crossfire in macOS.

There are a number of apps that can divide/chunk up work so it can be dispatched to multiple GPUs.

Nvidia would like to keep a foot in the door on the Mac platform nevertheless... but if Mac pros can pull off an nvlink kind of bridge (for vega ) then it could sour Nvidia’s plans... no way can they compete using eGPUs over TB.

I think a follow on to Vega is going to use that kind of link but it probably going to be used to product single card dual GPUs more so than multiple card ones. AMD has a track record of doing TDP budget busting, dual GPUs on a single card. I suspect there will be more in the future. In fact I think some of the new Navi features are to support just that. ( teaming up small-mid sized GPUs into a group that presents as just one to the host system. That way AMD can jump to less mature fabrication process sooner as opposed to waiting longer to do "mega" sized die solutions. )

HBMv2 (and later v3 if that makes it ) allows the footprint of the GPU+RAM solution to shrink. If there is more space on a single board then what used to be two boards could be merged into one. ( drop some of the board phys port overhead circuitry and have a bit more room).
 
Well then you all should probably get to Wikipedia and update the articles. :D

Use 'Mactracker'.

2013.png
 
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Wanted to mention that Apple has an officially supported eGPU card list. I think there is a possibility we could see something similar for a Mac Pro. Apple seems uninterested in doing Mac edition GPUs any more. All the cards mentioned are stock PC cards, even with specific vendors recommended.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208544
 
I think generally you're on the right track, but from what I remember the iMac Pro was announced after the Mac Pro announcement. But clearly the Mac Pro wasn't started until well into the iMac Pro's development.

I could have sworn we knew about an iMac Pro coming before the April 2017 event beyond that "Foxconn Insider" rumor, but they did mention a "pro" iMac was coming so maybe that was the first formal Apple mention about it.

So maybe Apple always planned a new Mac Pro and an iMac Pro, but if so, I wonder why they bothered with the April event when WWDC was so close. I mean in the end we get two new high-end Macs so I am certainly not complaining. :D
 
I could have sworn we knew about an iMac Pro coming before the April 2017 event beyond that "Foxconn Insider" rumor, but they did mention a "pro" iMac was coming so maybe that was the first formal Apple mention about it.

So maybe Apple always planned a new Mac Pro and an iMac Pro, but if so, I wonder why they bothered with the April event when WWDC was so close. I mean in the end we get two new high-end Macs so I am certainly not complaining. :D

I think there would have been pitchforks if they announced the iMac Pro with the caveat that there was a modular pro in development likely a year or two out at WWDC... The fireside chat gave Apple the upper hand to control the narrative: They invited 4-5 Mac-Blogger/Press individuals, that would get the word out, and slowly seep into the public (spread like wildfire to those who watch, but general public would be slow). If Apple went public at WWDC instead of April chat, it would have been very negative real quick, and apple remaining silent about a "Mac Pro" and offering an iMac Pro would have signaled the Mac Pro is dead-and had been a massive failure. If apple had not announced any information with the mMP, and only announced the iMac Pro, would any of us still be here? 5 years in, no word and a new iMac "Pro"?

Unfortunately you have to look at this through "can't innovate my (fat) ass" shill Philler... sorry, "can't innovate my ass" Phil Schiller... Apple already has a perception problem (noted by long time veterans) that is only showing more with time, drops in satisfaction, among consumers, employees, and other rankings, let alone missed (self imposed/announced) deadlines, throttling scandals, poor hardware and software launches (iWork Blackout of March 2018-killed iTunes Store, App Stores for both iOS and macOS(maybe they planned on releasing iOS 11.3 but servers were so hammered they aborted last minute.)). Anyone thinking "there's no ceiling" to Apples recent success is a fool-many have already cited the failures of Xerox and the similarities therein, Apple is too big and bloated, pushing out sub-par hardware and software, being taken to the cleaners in AI and Voice... but hey, have you seen the new spring collection of watch bands?
 
They've backtracked for some reason I think upgradability is one of those reasons probably. Apple honestly would have been perfectly happy to leave a down clocked Vega 64 as the top end, but something happened to tell them that wasn't acceptable. My guess continues to be they demoed the iMac Pro to a few VIP customers who probably threw a fit.

To provide some context on the sort of problem the iMac Pro faces - I'm about to start an artistic residency in VR at our local library, which is setting up a makerspace.

The machine I'm going to work on has a liquid cooled i7, Nvidia 1080ti, SSD and Spinner storage, monitor (which doesn't really matter for a VR station) and including the HTC Vive setup (the premium adjustable headstrap, controllers, lighthouses etc), came to around AU$5k. It's pretty much dead silent.

The entry-level iMac Pro with Vega 64, which is around 30% less performant for 3d environment / gaming engine tasks, is ~AU$8.5k and then you have to buy the Vive on top of that. That system is going to be significantly worse for VR, eGPU offers no real solution for a VR-specific upgrades compared to a motherboard slot, it's a little under double the cost, and if you boot into macOS there's a grant total of 2 non-game utility apps on Steam, and AFAIK Viveport doesn't have a Mac version.

Noone is bothering to make Mac ports of VR titles, because there isn't a community of performant GPU equipped machines to buy the apps. Developers (if recent articles at ARS are to be believed) are sitting it out until Apple puts VR-capable GPUs in all their machines - which frankly isn't ever going to happen until they go back to slots, or TB gets a guaranteed bandwidth per device, equivalent to a full fat pci slot.
 
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If the plan was not to make the iMac Pro the most powerful Mac available, why did Apple wait 10 months after announcing the iMac Pro to then announce they were developing a new Mac Pro that would be more than a year away (and possibly two)? The new Mac Pro should have been produced in parallel with the iMac Pro and it should have been announced along with the iMac Pro at WWDC.

This led to the (correct, IMO) perception that Apple was planning to make the iMac Pro the Mac Pro replacement and the feedback - blowback, really - that Apple received on this forced them to re-consider that decision and go forward with a new Mac Pro which necessitated the April 2017 meeting with some of those "influencers" who had been criticizing Apple for replacing the 2013 Mac Pro with an iMac Pro at the top.





Per Apple's own statements, the current Mac Pro makes up a couple percentage points of desktop Mac sales, which themselves make up about 20% of all Mac sales. Now you can argue (somewhat successfully) that the Mac Pro sells so poorly because of the outdated components and lack of expandability, but let us be honest - even if the Late 2013 model had been the "cheese grater" with the latest CPUs, GPUs and connectivity, it will would have accounted for single-digit percentages due to it's cost and all that "horsepower".

So why would Apple want to bifurcate that market even more by also launching a comparatively powerful iMac? If you wanted a 27" (or larger) 5K display with TB3 connectivity you could get them from LG and connect it to your Late 2017 Mac Pro.




And the Mac Pro is comatose because the iMac Pro was intended to replace it.





I don't game nor do I do workstation-level visualization, but the impression I have been seeing is that even if the base architecture is not changing, we're still seeing process improvements that generate more performance out of these architectures. So if you are doing something that can generate a real-return benefit from those enhancements, you want to be able to adopt them without having to replace the entire system.

Apple announced the iMac Pro at WWDC, which was after the pro summit.

While I don't doubt that some at Apple see the iMac Pro as an acceptable replacement machine (it certainly solves the oft-mentioned 'but what about Apple's workers' question I've heard John Siracusa raise when the subject comes up) and I could buy it as plausible (though we have no clear proof...)

It's clear at this point that the iMac Pro isn't necessarily being positioned as a "let's segment the market for our pro desktops even further". While the ultimate proof will be what form the Mac Pro takes, the way they've positioned the iMac Pro and their more recent moves with iOS devices make it pretty clear to me the iMac Pro is about goosing ASP by selling iMac Pros to some of the regular iMac users who wanted more power, not necessarily about cannibalizing the sales of the people who want Mac Pros. After all, if they thought they could convert most of that latter category, they wouldn't have announced another Mac Pro (and there are undoubtably plenty of people, like myself, who would have gotten an iMac Pro begrudgingly or otherwise if no Mac Pro was announced... they didn't set out to hurt their own sales.)
 
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