Want to record PS3 game play on Mac mini - Uncompressed would be nice.

Discussion in 'Digital Video' started by JackSpicer0, Aug 10, 2014.

  1. JackSpicer0, Aug 10, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014

    JackSpicer0 macrumors member

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    #1
    Hi! I'm not sure if anyone can help me, but I am wanting to record/capture PS3 game play and TV from my cable box in "Uncompressed" format, especially uncompressed HD video. I contacted Black Magic Design support and they told me that I need either a RAID disk array or a SSD. For editing uncompressed video, they suggest 4 hard drives in a RAID 0 configuration or a fast SSD to accompany the bandwidth that comes with uncompressed HD video.

    I'm not too sure about the requirements for capturing/recording uncompressed HD video, though.

    I'm looking to purchase either OWC's Mercury Elite Pro Dual Mini or Drobo Mini. Yes, I did read reviews on the Drobo Mini, but it's a mixed bag, with both positive and negative reviews on Amazon. I'm leaning towards the Drobo Mini because of it's toolless design, whereas OWC's Mini requires screws and screwdrivers. OWC's Mini is much cheaper without the drives and Drobo's Mini is expensive. The reason I'm wanting a mini version of RAID is because of it's small design and portability. My Mac is a late 2012 Mac Mini with factory/stock 4GB RAM, Intel Core i7 quad core, and 1TB HDD.

    Please help me. Thanks!
     
  2. simsaladimbamba

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    #2
    Just to make sure, why do you want to record UNCOMPRESSED, when the PS3 has a compressed video output for which ProRes 422 would more than suffice and for what a normal 7.200 RPM HDD will work quite well?

    To edit your thread title to a descriptive one, to get a knowledgable audience and help making the thread easier to find for people looking for the same information, just click on the [​IMG] button on the bottom right of your original post and then click the [​IMG] button below your message.

    Example: Wanna record PS3 game play on Mac mini - Uncompressed would be nice.
     
  3. JackSpicer0 thread starter macrumors member

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    #3
    I just wanted to see how good the video quality is, when it's not compressed about three times, one for capture/FCP, edited/rendered from FCP in a compressed format, and then uploaded/re-compressed by YouTube, again. Oh, and it's going to be an expensive hobby, too.
     
  4. simsaladimbamba, Aug 10, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014

    simsaladimbamba

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    #4
    Then this extensive article about video editing applications and its compressions might be helpful to save some money, as UNCOMPRESSED is not needed. ProRes 422 and ProRes HQ are quite low compressions already and suffice for your stated needs.

    Video Compression
    Why It Matters & How To Make The Most Of It


    And to give you an inkling of ProRes and it compressions:

    I have one 1080p file almost 40 minutes long, 25 frames per second and it uses the ProRes 422 HQ codec with a data rate of around 185 Mb/s, which is roughly 23 MB/s. The file has two UNCOMPRESSED audio channels.
    The file is 55.5 GB in size. When uploaded to YouTube in 1080p and using the H.264 codec, I compressed it to 789 MB, the difference is visible, but negligible in that case.

    If I would have used 10 RGB compression, which is almost Uncompressed, I would have a 500 GB file for 40 minutes, coming down to a data rate of 208 MB/s or so. 16 RGBA compression would get you a 996 GB file with 414 MB/s data rate.
    If you only have a computer monitor, you will not see the difference between ProRes 422 HQ and 10 RGB and 16 RGBA.

    But then again, it is your hobby and your money to waste.
     
  5. JackSpicer0 thread starter macrumors member

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    #5
    Thanks for the links. I'll read them later. But, what is the necessary/required hardware I would need to record in "Uncompressed"? How would I be able to achieve the data rate/bandwidth needed to record in the "Uncompressed" format with no lag, stutter, or freeze? I'm thinking of getting the RAID enclosure and my own matching SSD's, because of the HDD's probably not being able to handle the data rate for this format when capturing and/or editing. I know storage is also a concern, too. But I have some external hard drives big enough for archiving the uncompressed format. Also, which one would you prefer: OWC Mercury Elite Pro Dual Mini or Drobo Mini?
     
  6. simsaladimbamba

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    #6
    I cannot help you with that request, as I never needed to record or play back uncompressed video footage.

    All SD and HD and 2K to 5K footage I have and have worked with is always using some kind of compression and was always able to be played back by a single 7.200 S-ATA II or III HDD.
    I also never needed to capture more than just SD footage, as the HD and 2K to 5K footage I have worked with is file based and never exceeded 100 MB/s anyway.

    Maybe use the [​IMG] button to ask a moderator to move your thread to the Digital Video sub-forum, where people with experience with Uncompressed capturing will be able to help.
     
  7. JackSpicer0 thread starter macrumors member

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    #7
    Okay, thanks for all the help you could give me. I asked a mod to move my thread. Thanks!
     
  8. ColdCase, Aug 11, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014

    ColdCase macrumors 68030

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    #8
    Are any of your video sources, like the TV, copy protected (DRM). Most modern cable boxes only output HD video on HDMI (uncompressed other than what the cable and broadcasters use). HDMI will have DRM most of the time. If your capture box is not HDMI DRM compliant, you may get audio but no video. There is much discussion on the net about this, but I don't think there is anything that does this as an integrated package, a bunch of workarounds seem to be available. Look for game play recording type discussions.

    For gameplay I don't think is a problem as I think they fixed the PS3 issue.... I know you can get video cameras that output RAW video, but are you sure your PS3 will output the "uncompressed video" you want?

    Its not what you want, but I use an Elgato Game Capture HD box. You can capture 1080 or 720 over USB2 but its stored compressed. Part of the software is an export function that converts the captured HD video to prores. Excellent quality HD,but thats subjective. An hour of prores 720p HD is close to 100GB, but it can depend on the source.

    To edit this in FCPX real time, the source file(s) either needs to be in local or TB SSD or at least 3 or 4 fast hard drives in a RAID0 striped configuration. My Elgato is connected to the mini for capture, just about any drive will do, but on my edit machine I use a LaCie Big 5 and OSX software RAID. You can get by with fewer drives if you want to wait or pause during editing. Play back of the edited video has rarely been an issue, although I dunno about USB2.
     
  9. JackSpicer0 thread starter macrumors member

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    #9
    I think they're all copy protected, especially through HDMI, because of HDCP in HDMI. However, I'm going to go with component cables since it doesn't have any type of copy protection. If I were to get one of OWC's 2 or 4 bay RAID enclosures, such as the Qx2 (4 bays) or the Daul Mini (2 bays) or even Drobo's Mini (4 bays) (which I heard is slow and negative reviews) and fill the enclosure with SSD's, is it sufficient enough? The Drobo sounds cool but I don't think I want it because of the slow read/write speeds with both SSD's and HDD's and negative reviews.
     
  10. ColdCase, Aug 11, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014

    ColdCase macrumors 68030

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    #10
    I think most boxes won't output copy protected HDPC material on the component video output in HD format. SD 540p yes, HD 720 or 1080p not. Game play, not being copy protected, is different. There are older boxes around that may (purchased before 2013) but the originator can set the ITC flag which causes the box to down convert.

    Just saying its something to look at before investing tons of money. Not saying anything about political correctness.
     
  11. JackSpicer0 thread starter macrumors member

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    #11
    I don't know if 2 bays are enough or if I need 4 bays for RAID 0. Can I buy an adapter that turns 2.5" or 3.5" drives into USB 3.0 and connect the SSD's with this adapter and use the RAID software built in to Disk Utility so that I won't have to use a RAID enclosure, is this possible? If I go this route, can it act like a RAID disk array but without the actual RAID enclosure?
     
  12. ColdCase, Aug 11, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014

    ColdCase macrumors 68030

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    #12
    OWC makes a nice Thunderbay IV four bay Thunderbolt disk enclosure for $430 bare. They also have one for more money that has hardware RAID5.

    Don't forget about where are you putting the backup.

    Multiple USB drives in a RAID0 does not make much sense unless you have the same number of USB ports as drives on your computer, or on a TB docking station.

    A HD video editing hobby, more than for YouTube and family video quality, can get expensive fast. If you have to do any transcoding, the mini will be relatively slow but that shouldn't effect video quality....
     
  13. JackSpicer0 thread starter macrumors member

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    #13
    I guess I could go with OWC's Thunderbay IV, but I'll also have to buy brackets to install the SSD's inside it. The same thing goes for the Qx2. I think I'll go with the Qx2 since my only Thunderbolt port on my Mac Mini will be used by the Intensity Shuttle and the Qx2 has USB 3.0 and it's almost $200 cheaper. Although, I do like the small design of the Dual Mini, so I don't know what I want.
     
  14. ColdCase macrumors 68030

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    #14
    You know you can daisy chain 6-8 devices off a singe TB port. I have three RAID type boxes hanging off one port of my mini. Look for devices with two TB ports, those with just one have to be the last one in the chain.
     
  15. JackSpicer0 thread starter macrumors member

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    #15
    I know that you can Daisy Chain, but I don't think it's necessary for me and not to forget the elecrtic bill for such a setup.
     
  16. simsaladimbamba

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    #16
    Additional HDD cases will not add that much to the electric bill, maybe a dollar or two per year, tops.

    One HDD normally uses 6.5 to 9 W when in use, your playstation will use much more than that, even if you have four 3 TB HDDs running at the same time.

    Anyway, I use a Fantec USB 3.0 quad-bay enclosure, which also has RAID capabilities if I buy the 30 € more expensive model.
    Via USB 3.0 I get 120 to 160 MB/s sequential read/write speeds on one 3 TB 7.200 Seagate Barracuda HDD, more than enough for my 1080p, 2K to 5K needs in an editing application. Hell, the search time is quite low too. But then again, I do use compressed footage with data rates between 20 to 60 MB/s, as I do not mind the difference anyway.
     
  17. JackSpicer0 thread starter macrumors member

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    #17
    I was just looking at some Thunderbolt docking stations and have decided to go with either a USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt RAID enclosure. Sadly, Drobo Mini is the only enclosure that offers both connections. Too bad it's slow. Also, for HDMI, are there any splitters that can bypass HDCP? (sorry if this violates the rules of this website) If you can, please link some.
     
  18. Unami macrumors 6502a

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    #18
    i'd guess, you'll need a 4-bay raid (for HDDs) or two bays for SSDs. you'll have a data rate of about 320MB/s (2,5 Gbps) for uncompressed 10bit HD at 60 fps.
    afaik, you won't get a sustained data rate this fast on a single SSD. You'll also fill a RAID with 2x1TB SSDs in Raid 0 in about 52 minutes.

    i'd get something like a pegasus R4 raid enclosure with 12GB. that'll give you enough Raid 0 space for about 8 hours of footage.

    you'll also need something like a blackmagic ultrastudio 4k to capture a highest quality 4:4:4 10-bit hd-stream. and you have to think about backup - i'd take a LTO-5 or 6 drive for that (with a pci-sas-controller in a thunserbolt enclosure).

    so you're looking at about at least $5000 for this setup (sans mac mini) plus about $ 140 for double backup for every 2 hours of video - expensive hobby indeed.

    as others have suggested, some content will be copy-protected (not sure, but doesn't the copy protection flag get set on a per-title basis ?). also, you really, really won't see the difference between uncompressed and prores 422 HQ unless you really pixel-peek (and know where to look). even prores 422 should by far exceed the quality of your source material - yes, it's another compression on top of the compression of your source - but you won't notice, as it won't get magically rid of the compression artifacts that are already in your source material (which should be far more visible).
     
  19. ColdCase, Aug 12, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014

    ColdCase macrumors 68030

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    #19
    The environment and available products change often. The amazon reviews may be your friend. I've read that there are sometimes more issues with sources like NetFlix.

    In the US, copying is legal for personal use. Piracy and resale are not.

    I went through a year or so of USB3 nonsense, and eventually went to thunderbolt storage. Was and and am still using eSATA on the old MacPro. If I had to do it over again, I'd forget about USB3 for video editing support. USB3 drives are useful for cheap backup storage, however.

    So buy some USB3 stuff, if it doesn't work out, you can always use them for backups.
     
  20. Chad3eleven, Aug 12, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014

    Chad3eleven macrumors regular

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    #20
    You want to capture HD footage via Component, and you want uncompressed?

    No chance.

    Like others have stated, the game output is NOT uncompressed.. thus you will be wasting time and effort trying to capture uncompressed..

    AND..

    The current project I am working on, (for work) which is a national Chevy commercial that features video game footage featured on the vehicles flip down screen that contains footage from Gran Turismo, that Sony provided for us.. and get this.. it was NOT uncompressed.

    It is Pro Res 422 HQ, which is an industry broadcast codec, which ALL of our large national commercials are transmitted in. (the clips were1920x1080 59.94 FPS.. )

    again.. even the highest level broadcast production cameras dont record to the uncompressed format you so desire..
     
  21. JackSpicer0 thread starter macrumors member

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    #21
    That was more money than I was wanting to spend. Yes, I know everything is compressed. Except for the original masters/source material that broadcasters and video game developers have. Yes, I also will not notice a difference, but I like to be to not have to re-compress multiple times due to in-compatible file types in various NLE's, edit, re-compress, upload and then have YouTube re-compress again.

    ----------

    I'm not into piracy or re-sale. I guess I'll switch from USB 3.0 to Thunderbolt.
     
  22. Carlanga macrumors 604

    Carlanga

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    #22
    I just wanna ask, are you sure you are that good that people will want to see you play? or is this for walkthroughs etc? Either way, having to deal w/ uncompressed files will cause you to prob be the last person to upload the content people will want to watch.

    Also, why not just get a PS4 and wait for the 2.0 update and let it do all the hard work for you, any new game is also coming for the next gen consoles.
     
  23. JackSpicer0, Aug 12, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014

    JackSpicer0 thread starter macrumors member

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    #23
    I know that the content that we see on our TV's and video games that we play have been compressed already. Yes, true uncompressed will take up so much disk space and power needed to edit the content. I know ProRes 422 will be more than sufficient, but I just want to take a step further and see if I can capture/record/edit in uncompressed if I were ever needed to.

    ----------

    No, actually, I'm not very good. It's just that I want to do this for fun. Not for views or anything.
     
  24. simsaladimbamba

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    #24
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but even that is not true.
    Digital Betacam, the professional standard in the 1990s for Standard Definition electronic news gathering and low cost documentaries, was using compressed 10-bit YUV 4:2:2 sampling at 90 Mbit/s.
    HD footage acquisition is also compressed, the current standard, the Arri Alexa camera records either RAW (which is still compressed) or uses the ProRes or DNxHD codec.
    The RED cameras also use compression, the REDCODE RAW codec, which allows for lossy compression.

    Hardly any master is uncompressed, even scanned 35mm or 16mm film masters for digital manipulation.

    In other words, what you want to waste your money on is something that will not give you any benefit instead of using ProRes or similar lossy, but high quality, video editing codecs.

    But then again, it is your money to waste.
     
  25. JackSpicer0 thread starter macrumors member

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    #25
    I know I can try Pro Res, but I guess I could use it for the time being while I gather up the money to purchase all of the hardware I need to record in uncompressed. I know it's not going to be noticable, but it sure would as heck be something to do to pass the time and learn more about technology, as it is always going forward. And yes, I do know that various cameras do have some type of codec as RAW and uncompressed would be too big to handle and store. Nothing is actually truly "RAW" or "Uncompressed". Although, it would look a lot better than the cheap capture cards out there that already have some type of hardware/on-board encoder. I'd rather shell out the money for a better capture card that can give me the highest quality possible than to record in lossy compression, edit the footage, render in another lossy compression, and then upload and let YouTube re-render again, thus resulting in more pixelation and artifacts. I'm not rich, but I'm working to buy the parts needed for my home workstation. A little something to take stress out of me from work and staying at home bored with nothing better to do.
     

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