WARNING: Serious flaw in iTunes in the Cloud

[ipedro]

Some people here are missing the point. Yes, of course Apple has covered their ass and included disclaimers in the fine print. But at the same time they're falsely claiming that we're in a post PC world and that you don't need a computer. No, you cannot buy content on iTunes without having a computer because there is no other way to back it up.

Second, a lot of people are buying a service not just the rights to a movie. When I buy a movie on iTunes, I'm doing so because I can access it anywhere -- just like it says in Apple's ads and website.

If you don't think this is a big problem brewing, then just wait and see when a studio inevitably pulls out like NBC did for a while. During that period, all the movies from that studio will be gone from people's collections. That's millions of people complaining, Tweeting, writing blogs.

Apple needs to address this.

 

[Jigga Beef]

Where has apple advertised that we "are in a post PC world" you keep saying that like it some kind of decision the world has made and its law. Post PC world is great.

Yes the covered it in the fine print, which you clearly didn't read. Not their fault thats yours.

And no all of the people who only store things on the cloud will be pissed if NBC pulls their content, not people who saved the content to thier hard drive.

Again sucks you are having this problem but the issues you have encountered are you issues that apple clearly addressed in the "fine print"

You would be amazed at the what companies can say it ADs legally, i am sure none of apples ads are illegal even if the products don't work as you want them to.

 

[HarbingerX]

This debate will go on for some time yet. But the real problem is that in an entirely digital world, the existing licensing models don't work as well and we need to redefine them so that purchasing a digital version of a good is equivalent to owning a physical good.

To get there, we'll first have to have a class-action lawsuit, then it will need to go up to the US Supreme Court to rule.

Good news in Canada is that the Canadian Supreme Court did recently rule that 're-downloading' in iTunes did not constitute a 're-broadcast' (thus triggering radio airplay payments) and that the digital content should be considered the same as a physical music CD. So the there is some precedent set in other common-law jurisdictions for when it gets to the US Supreme Court.

It took Music in iTunes 8 years or so to break free from restrictive licenses and DRM. I think Movies will take much longer.

Once this becomes a reality, then if a purchase license gets pulled, Apple can just put the digital copy in every users personal cloud storage, as happens with iTunes Match today.

 

[RipeRetina]

I remember reading this thread couple weeks ago. Didn't think much of it until now. I bought Puss In Boots for my daughter. Its missing! Anybody else missing this movie?

 

[pavelbure]

I remember reading this thread couple weeks ago. Didn't think much of it until now. I bought Puss In Boots for my daughter. Its missing! Anybody else missing this movie?

I didn't buy it, but I did get a iTunes code from a blu ray and it's not showing up on my cloud list either.

 

[Mr-Kerrse]

Why are we in a post PC world ? If so why do Apple still sell Imac's, Laptops and Mac Pro's ?

I have apple tv's, ipads and iphones but also have an Imac so back up everything on there including anything bought and shared via the cloud

 

[donrsd]

I remember reading this thread couple weeks ago. Didn't think much of it until now. I bought Puss In Boots for my daughter. Its missing! Anybody else missing this movie?

I didn't buy it, but I did get a iTunes code from a blu ray and it's not showing up on my cloud list either.

Same issue here with Puss In Boots, it doesnt show up in iCloud.

I also have the same trouble with my bluray digital copy of Good Will Hunting......it doesnt show up on iCloud

Also my Ice Age Christmas Special & Kung Fu Panda 2 bluray digital copies wont show up on iCloud

 

[sesnir]

This is alarming. I've got a large library of movies and tv shows and I expect to keep them forever. A media library is an investment. I don't have the hard drive space required to backup everything I've purchased in iTunes, and I shouldn't have to.

Now I feel like I've got to keep an inventory of what I've purchased so I'll know if something goes missing one day...

I thought the cloud was ready for prime time, but if this is how it's going to be, then it's back to bluray for me.

 

[Cartaphilus]

Just asking because I don't know...

Can you back up a purchased movie to, say, Dropbox? I guess we have to consider both technical and legal issues, as well as the cost of renting the storage space from Dropbox.

How about those wifi enabled external hard drives, like GoFlex or Wi-Drive? Can you back up an iTunes purchased movie using an iOS device and one of those devices?


If either works, this may yet not be the end of the Post-PC world as we know it.

 

[Rigby]

Same issue here with Puss In Boots, it doesnt show up in iCloud.

I also have the same trouble with my bluray digital copy of Good Will Hunting......it doesnt show up on iCloud

Also my Ice Age Christmas Special & Kung Fu Panda 2 bluray digital copies wont show up on iCloud

Don't know about the others, but Good Will Hunting is still available in the cloud for me:

 

[peeaanuut]

why do people feel that when they purchase a movie or TV show or even music from Apple that apple is required to store and maintain it as well? its very simple, buy it on appletv, head to the computer and download it. How would you feel if your friend purchased a lawn mower from you, but made you store it and be required to have access to it whenever they wanted to? Then if you move, are you then required to give them continued access at your inconvenience to the lawnmower even if you move out of state?

Hard drives are cheap. Download the file, back it up. Done. Simple.

----------

This is alarming. I've got a large library of movies and tv shows and I expect to keep them forever. A media library is an investment. I don't have the hard drive space required to backup everything I've purchased in iTunes, and I shouldn't have to.

Now I feel like I've got to keep an inventory of what I've purchased so I'll know if something goes missing one day...

I thought the cloud was ready for prime time, but if this is how it's going to be, then it's back to bluray for me.

The cloud would be ready for primetime if people were willing to pay for it. But people think that it should be free or extremely cheap. They dont want to pay the costs of storage and maintaining it but they also dont want to pay someone else to do it either.

Going back to the lawnmower in my previous post.

You can cut your own lawn and its cheaper because you dont pay someone every week. The downside is you have to pay for the gas and the mower and store the mower and spend time cutting the grass. or you can pay a gardener. You cant expect a gardener to do it for free.

 

[outphase]

Just asking because I don't know...

Can you back up a purchased movie to, say, Dropbox? I guess we have to consider both technical and legal issues, as well as the cost of renting the storage space from Dropbox.

How about those wifi enabled external hard drives, like GoFlex or Wi-Drive? Can you back up an iTunes purchased movie using an iOS device and one of those devices?


If either works, this may yet not be the end of the Post-PC world as we know it.

iTunes videos have DRM, but they are still standard .m4v files and movable as such.

 

[orestes1984]

This is alarming...

This is why I have all of my data stored on a physical server at home that Apple can't touch. The fact that people trust the cloud In Australia recently 3/4 of rental content miraculously disappeared because of a change in heart by movie studios. Why even put yourself at the will of this madness?

 

[donrsd]

Same issue here with Puss In Boots, it doesnt show up in iCloud.

I also have the same trouble with my bluray digital copy of Good Will Hunting......it doesnt show up on iCloud

Also my Ice Age Christmas Special & Kung Fu Panda 2 bluray digital copies wont show up on iCloud

Don't know about the others, but Good Will Hunting is still available in the cloud for me:


Image

Thats odd.
I just tried redownloading GWH the other night and it still didnt activate on iCloud.

Any recommendations?

 

[sesnir]

why do people feel that when they purchase a movie or TV show or even music from Apple that apple is required to store and maintain it as well?

Simple: http://www.apple.com/icloud/features/itunes-in-the-cloud/

"With iCloud, the music you purchase in iTunes appears automatically on all your devices. You can also download your past iTunes purchases. Where you want, when you want."

There's no asterisk there. It does not say "you can download your past iTunes purchases as long as the studio doesn't screw you over". (edit: I guess there is a footnote later in the page, but they still didn't have one in the header)

Cloud media needs to be treated on the same level as physical media. If I buy a blu-ray movie, then Amazon can't come to my house and steal it back because the studio told them to stop selling it. I paid for it, and it's mine now. This whole "you have a license to view it that can be revoked at any time" stuff is pure exploitation, and it's not mentioned in their advertising.

Likewise, it's up to Apple to make sure studios don't have the power to take away what I already paid for. They can remove it from the store for new sales, sure, but they should not legally be allowed to remove my access to it on a whim.

If none of this is possible, then they should stop advertising that iTunes in the cloud is meant to work like this.

Regarding music (since you mentioned it), iTunes Match is a paid service and they had better keep my music in the cloud because that's what I'm paying for. Access to simple purchase history is done by every single online store out there, usually for no extra cost. If I buy a game on Steam, and that game is removed (like Crysis 2 was for a while), it remains in my library because I already paid them for it. Why should iTunes act any different with movies?

 

[peeaanuut]

its in the terms that you agreed to. Try reading them sometime. Dont assume that a service works like another service because its the way you want it to. Dont like the terms, dont agree to the service. Take just a small bit of personal responsiblity.

 

[brentsg]

I remember reading this thread couple weeks ago. Didn't think much of it until now. I bought Puss In Boots for my daughter. Its missing! Anybody else missing this movie?

iTunes consistently reminds you to backup your content..

 

[adbe]

iTunes consistently reminds you to backup your content..

Then Apple needs to stop trumpeting the post-PC era, no?

How exactly do I backup my iDevices if I don't have a Mac or PC? To the cloud of course!

 

[brentsg]

Then Apple needs to stop trumpeting the post-PC era, no?

How exactly do I backup my iDevices if I don't have a Mac or PC? To the cloud of course!

You people take the post PC comments far too literally. People's usage patterns are shifting to devices such as tablets.. it's happening.

Does that mean that every single thing a traditional computer has done is no longer necessary? No.. it's a marketing phrase.

Chevy was the heartbeat of America. Was this BS because you still had to actually have a heart to live?

Regarding the content, you can be sure that Apple would prefer to continue distributing that content to everyone that had purchased it. The fact is that the studios hold the cards and what we see is the result of a give and take compromise.

 

[adbe]

You people take the post PC comments far too literally.

Silly me then.

People's usage patterns are shifting to devices such as tablets.. it's happening.

I thought I was taking it too seriously, but now you're saying it's a thing. So confused here.

Does that mean that every single thing a traditional computer has done is no longer necessary? No.. it's a marketing phrase.

Ooh, a strawman. Well played.

Post-PC simply means that a lot of people own desktop class hardware that they really don't need. I understand this. I persuaded my dad to switch his laptop out for an iPad, and he's never been happier. Apple see the iPad as the proper heir to the 'computer for the rest of us' throne. They're probably right.

That only works though when there is no need for another computer. The current hodge podge of cloud backup and data-management tools are no where near that point, and given the resources and legendary focus of Apple, that's kind of inexcusable.

Regarding the content, you can be sure that Apple would prefer to continue distributing that content to everyone that had purchased it. The fact is that the studios hold the cards and what we see is the result of a give and take compromise.

Except that I can load music into iTunes Match for which Apple does not have a content deal.

This is not a licensing issue, it's a laziness issue. Apple are quite capable of making movies that they no longer distribute into data-only storage on their servers. My guess is that they simply don't see this as a common enough thing that they care about it right now.

 

[buddha86]

iTunes Music

I had purchased over $1000 worth of music from the iTunes store and still have every email receipt to prove it, but a few years ago I lost my hard drive containing my iTunes library. I tried the "Check for Available Downloads" option in iTunes and nothing showed up. I contacted Apple and was told that none of it was available anymore. I checked and the music was still there. Apple then told me it must have changed format or something, but that I would have to purchase my music again. AND this was before the cloud. iTunes store has always been that way. Total BS

 

[mully1121]

Silly me then.
This is not a licensing issue, it's a laziness issue. Apple are quite capable of making movies that they no longer distribute into data-only storage on their servers. My guess is that they simply don't see this as a common enough thing that they care about it right now.

Actually, I think it is still a licensing issue. If the entity holding the license changes and Apple does not have an agreement (or has a different agreement) with that entity then they can no longer distribute it. And yes, the studios would/do view that as distributing. Like it or not, a lot of the blame lies with the studios. Their approach to digital media has been nothing short of asinine. As a result we have to protect ourselves as consumers and that means backing up our digital purchases.

As far as this supposedly "Post-PC world" we live in, some people may choose to live that way (and maybe we're all headed there) but we are by no means there. I still very much live in a PC world and while I like the iPad and I love my Apple TV I use my computer much, much more than those devices. Frankly, all this does to me is highlight why the concept of the cloud is faulty. I don't trust anyone but myself to handle my data correctly.

 

[adbe]

Actually, I think it is still a licensing issue. If the entity holding the license changes and Apple does not have an agreement (or has a different agreement) with that entity then they can no longer distribute it. And yes, the studios would/do view that as distributing. Like it or not, a lot of the blame lies with the studios. Their approach to digital media has been nothing short of asinine. As a result we have to protect ourselves as consumers and that means backing up our digital purchases.

I agree with your overall assessment here, but I still feel that once a transaction has been made, Apple can in good faith store a movie as data. Technically it is not hard to do, Apple do it with Match, and legally as Amazon and Google have shown, it's acceptable[1].

As far as this supposedly "Post-PC world" we live in, some people may choose to live that way (and maybe we're all headed there) but we are by no means there. I still very much live in a PC world and while I like the iPad and I love my Apple TV I use my computer much, much more than those devices.

Some users will never be without their desktop, and some tasks will always be out of the reach of mobile devices. That's not in dispute.

Apple want customers to believe that a household without a PC can still be an iPhone household though, and for the most part that's true. Except for when it isn't.

Frankly, all this does to me is highlight why the concept of the cloud is faulty. I don't trust anyone but myself to handle my data correctly.

Personally, I agree with this wholeheartedly.

[1] If the famously aggressive litigants at the RIAA haven't gone there, there is probably no 'there' to go.

 

[mully1121]

I agree with your overall assessment here, but I still feel that once a transaction has been made, Apple can in good faith store a movie as data. Technically it is not hard to do, Apple do it with Match, and legally as Amazon and Google have shown, it's acceptable[1].

Technically its not hard to do but do they have the legal right to do it? I have no idea what terms Amazon and Google have gotten with the studios, nor do I have a clue what terms Apple has. I would assume, given their normally excellent customer service, they aren't just giving a big "screw you" to these customers and are not legally able to restore these items.

IApple want customers to believe that a household without a PC can still be an iPhone household though, and for the most part that's true. Except for when it isn't.

Their advertising may be misleading, I honestly don't pay attention to it much (I don't need much pushing to get me to buy their products ) I would argue they aren't the only ones doing it. Everyone is pushing for this whole "lets keep everything in the cloud." And this was well before Apple started pushing iCloud.

Maybe the solution for iPad/iPhone users is some sort of cloud storage (completely separate from Apple) where they have more control over what they put in and take out and can do it free of a PC. I'm not sure if there are any services that really let you do that though and I know you'll end up having to pay some sort of yearly/monthly fee. You'll still run into the just the general "how reliable is the cloud?" issue of course but it may be a better long term solution if you truly want to go PC free.

 

[adbe]

Technically its not hard to do but do they have the legal right to do it?

No-one actually knows. But:

I have no idea what terms Amazon and Google have gotten with the studios,

They don't. The RIAA was quite public and vocal about their displeasure. They also threatened legal action. That never happened, and no-one really seems to think it is going to. This is distinct from the MP3.com case, because MP3.com were doing something more akin to iTunes Match, without a licensing agreement.

The distinction being that Google/Amazon only gives you access to what you personally uploaded, whereas Apple will replace the file with their own copy if they deem it appropriate. I.E. Google and Amazon are offering straight-up cloud storage that happens to do music indexing and tagging.

Apple could do likewise unless a) they're eager not to upset their content partners, or b) they just don't care enough.

Their advertising may be misleading, I honestly don't pay attention to it much (I don't need much pushing to get me to buy their products ) I would argue they aren't the only ones doing it. Everyone is pushing for this whole "lets keep everything in the cloud." And this was well before Apple started pushing iCloud.

Yeah, but accessing previous purchases through iTunes doesn't really feel like the cloud to most people. I'd suggest most users would see that more like a company canceling a subscription service without refund. You buy the product with an understanding of access on demand, and at some point after taking your money, the supplier changes the terms against you.

Maybe the solution for iPad/iPhone users is some sort of cloud storage (completely separate from Apple) where they have more control over what they put in and take out and can do it free of a PC. I'm not sure if there are any services that really let you do that though and I know you'll end up having to pay some sort of yearly/monthly fee. You'll still run into the just the general "how reliable is the cloud?" issue of course but it may be a better long term solution if you truly want to go PC free.

That I think is really what's needed but since Apple make it so hard (for most people read impossible) to get media into an iDevice except through iTunes or the iTunes Store, that can't happen.