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Thanks nanofrog!

So basically I'd be ok with using some Black Caviars in RAID O on my MacPro since I'm using Disc Utility to set them to RAID 0. Right?

Also, will a drive failure happen more often if I use RAID 0? I prefer my drives be set up to look like one drive, its easier to manage/search through finder as well as backing up using CCC. But if the percentage is higher for drive failure in RAID 0 then it may not be a good option.

BTW, I agree about SSD's, I have my OS and apps on an OWC 120GB and I love it. I wish I could store all my data on SSD's, but the capacity/cost ratio just isn't good.
 
So basically I'd be ok with using some Black Caviars in RAID O on my MacPro since I'm using Disc Utility to set them to RAID 0. Right?

probably

Also, will a drive failure happen more often if I use RAID 0? I prefer my drives be set up to look like one drive, its easier to manage/search through finder as well as backing up using CCC. But if the percentage is higher for drive failure in RAID 0 then it may not be a good option.

The chance of disk failure is the same, but now if either disk fails you've lost everything - so the change of the virtual disk failing has doubled (or more if you have more physical disks in it)

Edit: but if you want your storage to appear in one large volume, with safety in case a disk should fail, then you are looking at parity based raid (something like raid5) which really should be done with "enterprise" drives. Although some vendors will happily sell you a raid5 using "desktop" disks. Perhaps the raid controller they use is more tolerant of a disk "misbehaving"?
 
probably



The chance of disk failure is the same, but now if either disk fails you've lost everything - so the change of the virtual disk failing has doubled (or more if you have more physical disks in it)

Edit: but if you want your storage to appear in one large volume, with safety in case a disk should fail, then you are looking at parity based raid (something like raid5) which really should be done with "enterprise" drives. Although some vendors will happily sell you a raid5 using "desktop" disks. Perhaps the raid controller they use is more tolerant of a disk "misbehaving"?


Probably scares me. Hoping for a definitive yes.

Didn't realize that about raid 0. I thought that if one drive failed the other would still be ok. If that's the case then failure rate is definitely double. That sucks.
 
Probably scares me. Hoping for a definitive yes.

I won't give you a definitive yes, because in the unlikely event it does not work for you, you might hire a lawyer, and hunt me down :eek:

Didn't realize that about raid 0. I thought that if one drive failed the other would still be ok. If that's the case then failure rate is definitely double. That sucks.
That is the way it works. Loose a disk, loose the data in your raid 0. (I suppose you might be able to recover some of the data, in some of your files, but that is not much use to most people)

That is why you have backups - and NO, raid1 is NOT a backup. The most ANY raid can do is protect you from disk failure.
 
I won't give you a definitive yes, because in the unlikely event it does not work for you, you might hire a lawyer, and hunt me down :eek:


That is the way it works. Loose a disk, loose the data in your raid 0. (I suppose you might be able to recover some of the data, in some of your files, but that is not much use to most people)

That is why you have backups - and NO, raid1 is NOT a backup. The most ANY raid can do is protect you from disk failure.

My backup system is an external enclosure set to raid 1. Everything on my mac gets backed up once a day to the external drive, which is only plugged in when I do the backup. That gives me two backups of all my files. If one drive fails in my external then I still have the second drive. Any problems with that?
 
My backup system is an external enclosure set to raid 1. Everything on my mac gets backed up once a day to the external drive, which is only plugged in when I do the backup. That gives me two backups of all my files. If one drive fails in my external then I still have the second drive. Any problems with that?

Everybody has a different philosophy on what makes a good backup. And there is no right answer. My experience has been that disk directory errors, and even more often human errors, are more frequent than outright disk failures. You might well end up with two perfect copies of one of these errors. Something to think about. There is no perfect backup scheme, but it is good to know the strengths and weaknesses of each scheme, and pick the one that works best for you. You have a very solid backup - but it is only one backup. At least you have a backup, it is surprising how many people do not.

Did I mention there is no perfect backup scheme?
 
Everybody has a different philosophy on what makes a good backup. And there is no right answer. My experience has been that disk directory errors, and even more often human errors, are more frequent than outright disk failures. You might well end up with two perfect copies of one of these errors. Something to think about. There is no perfect backup scheme, but it is good to know the strengths and weaknesses of each scheme, and pick the one that works best for you. You have a very solid backup - but it is only one backup. At least you have a backup, it is surprising how many people do not.

Did I mention there is no perfect backup scheme?

How is it only one backup? I understand both drives in the enclosure are identical but there are two drives, therefor two backups. If one drive fails, then I have the second backup to go off of. Just trying to see ur point
 
How is it only one backup? I understand both drives in the enclosure are identical but there are two drives, therefor two backups. If one drive fails, then I have the second backup to go off of. Just trying to see ur point
yes but it will only appear as 1 logical disk and partition, therefore being 1 backup :)

in anycase, you can use ANY drive to make a software RAID. it is not recommended to use "green" drives in hardware RAID (or in any RAID for that matter) hehe.
 
yes but it will only appear as 1 logical disk and partition, therefore being 1 backup :)

in anycase, you can use ANY drive to make a software RAID. it is not recommended to use "green" drives in hardware RAID (or in any RAID for that matter) hehe.

So to have two "true" backups I would need to have a second enclosure.
 
So to have two "true" backups I would need to have a second enclosure.
yes - its a stupid technicality really, no need to worry about it haha. the logic being that if 1 drive fails the 2nd drive can be read, but its still going to be seen as a "RAID".

what config were you considering?
 
The chance of disk failure is the same, but now if either disk fails you've lost everything - so the change of the virtual disk failing has doubled (or more if you have more physical disks in it)

He's looking at 4 drive RAID 0, so his failure potential would actually be 4x.

If you've got backups, you won't necessarily lose data, but your RAID will have to be reformatted/restored.
 
I want raid 0 for internal storage and raid 1 for my backups. Works well for me.
 
I want raid 0 for internal storage and raid 1 for my backups. Works well for me.
ahh wonderful, cant see anything wrong with that then. nice and redundant. just keep the RAID1 away from the MP and disconneted :p

nanofrog said:
Previously, all a user had to do, was get hold of the TLER utility, and adjust consumer drives (this was common with Green versions for data center use, as there weren't any RE versions available in the past). This has now changed (when the RE4-GP came out), so they've now locked the firmware settings in the consumer models = forced to buy the enterprise models for RAID cards (REx or REx-GP), since it's no longer possible to adjust the firmware settings. They make more money this way.
so basically they are messing us over :( what are the benefits to forcing users to purchase RE over the consumer models, and then changing over the timings?
 
So basically I'd be ok with using some Black Caviars in RAID O on my MacPro since I'm using Disc Utility to set them to RAID 0. Right?
Yes, you'd be OK in terms of those disks working, as they're attached to the ICH (I/O Controller Hub) that's soldered to the backplane board, and Disk Utility, which is part of OS X, will handle the RAID functions.

You are running higher risk than a single disk though;
Risk of Total Data Loss for a RAID 0 = n disks * failure rate of a single disk

Also, will a drive failure happen more often if I use RAID 0? I prefer my drives be set up to look like one drive, its easier to manage/search through finder as well as backing up using CCC. But if the percentage is higher for drive failure in RAID 0 then it may not be a good option.
The drive itself, not so much (they can be under additional risk for other RAID levels). But as you're running more than one disk in the set, your risk for data loss is higher (see formula posted above).

And it's the Risk of Data Loss that's important (idea that the data is worth far more than the disk/s that contain it).

Although some vendors will happily sell you a raid5 using "desktop" disks. Perhaps the raid controller they use is more tolerant of a disk "misbehaving"?
FakeRAID controller based solutions; I hate them with a passion, as software implementations cannot handle parity based arrays properly, and they don't make their customers aware of this. :( :mad:

in anycase, you can use ANY drive to make a software RAID. it is not recommended to use "green" drives in hardware RAID (or in any RAID for that matter) hehe.
The enterprise versions would be fine (RE4-GP). In fact, they're used often for backups or even primary locations that can be met with the reduced throughput (power usage is more important = operational expenses).

My backup system is an external enclosure set to raid 1. Everything on my mac gets backed up once a day to the external drive, which is only plugged in when I do the backup. That gives me two backups of all my files. If one drive fails in my external then I still have the second drive. Any problems with that?
Well, if you backup a user error for example, it will be duplicated automatically to both disks.

If you're after redundancy, you'd be better off using it with the primary array (i.e. use RAID 10, as Disk Utility can handle it). Performance would be the same as a 2x disk stripe set, but have a redundancy of n = 2 before total data loss.

Now if your performance cannot be met by that, then you'd need to be looking at a card of some sort (RAID or non-RAID card) and additional disks (probably an external enclosure as well, though depending on the drive count, it may be possible to keep the drives internal in the system).

so basically they are messing us over :( what are the benefits to forcing users to purchase RE over the consumer models, and then changing over the timings?
Well, none of the other disk manufacturers have ever made such a utility available at all. Not even for the enterprise units, so we should be greatful that it lasted as long as it did. :eek: :p

Granted, I know it's not fun that the consumer models are no longer usable, but at least the enterprise disks do have the additional sensors and improved specs to compensate for the additional cost (users are paying for more than just different firmware). ;)
 
The enterprise versions would be fine (RE4-GP). In fact, they're used often for backups or even primary locations that can be met with the reduced throughput (power usage is more important = operational expenses).

Well, none of the other disk manufacturers have ever made such a utility available at all. Not even for the enterprise units, so we should be greatful that it lasted as long as it did. :eek: :p

Granted, I know it's not fun that the consumer models are no longer usable, but at least the enterprise disks do have the additional sensors and improved specs to compensate for the additional cost (users are paying for more than just different firmware). ;)
im just coming from the angle of costs, and reliability. sure with the consumer model you can change the timins, but i daresay they would not be as reliable, safe, quiet and effective as the RE drives? but still wonderful to be able to have the option to change in any case.
 
im just coming from the angle of costs, and reliability. sure with the consumer model you can change the timins, but i daresay they would not be as reliable, safe, quiet and effective as the RE drives? but still wonderful to be able to have the option to change in any case.
Yes, the consumer models are cheaper. No, they're not as reliable. And unless it's older drives, you can't run the TLER utility on consumer drives anymore.

It was a nice thing to have for backup locations, but alas, no longer possible with the disks currently manufactured (consumer Green models).

You can still change the timings on the enterprise units for compatibility issues though (could solve an issue rather than screwed while waiting for new card firmware, as most of the problems are solved that way, not from the drive makers).
 
How is it only one backup? I understand both drives in the enclosure are identical but there are two drives, therefor two backups. If one drive fails, then I have the second backup to go off of. Just trying to see ur point

It is one backup because you made it at the same time, and it is in the same place. It is a very good backup, but it is one backup in my mind. If the enclosure craps out, then what? If you delete a file by mistake, then make a backup, what happens? I'd almost rather raid1 my working drive (so I had an immediate backup of everything I did) and rely on a single backup when I knew things were good. But that is me, and like I said, everybody has a different idea of how to backup. In case you care, what I do is nightly
backup to a local drives (turned on as needed), and occasionally backup to off-site drives. I also use time machine to backup some stuff automatically. Again it is not perfect, and it may not work for you.

If you raid 2x2tb disks (for the space) how does your backup deal with that? Are your backup disks 4tb (if so, where can I buy them), or do you not plan to fill your working disks.

Not trying to cause problems, just discussing things :cool:
 
Yes, the consumer models are cheaper. No, they're not as reliable. And unless it's older drives, you can't run the TLER utility on consumer drives anymore.

It was a nice thing to have for backup locations, but alas, no longer possible with the disks currently manufactured (consumer Green models).
maybe it was causing more troubles then it was worth? R&D wise or something, the fact that they were doing it would have made them quite popular though! so i am confused why they dropped it.

You can still change the timings on the enterprise units for compatibility issues though (could solve an issue rather than screwed while waiting for new card firmware, as most of the problems are solved that way, not from the drive makers).
ahh yes well you would want to hope so! at least they still have some sense about them ;)

quick question too - for consumer drives, would you go samsung, WD or hitachi (talking 2TBs, lowest models possible). im out of space again ;)
 
FakeRAID controller based solutions; I hate them with a passion, as software implementations cannot handle parity based arrays properly, and they don't make their customers aware of this. :( :mad:

Here is a popular example.

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other World Computing/MEQX2T8.0S/

says hardware raid. Uses "desktop" drives (4 x 2.0TB* Hitachi Deskstar™ 7K2000). I suspect all hardware controllers are not the same - some might allow more variability in the drives they control. I know nothing about the controller they are using. Maybe it fakeraid, maybe they are selling crap, maybe they have a controller that really works with desktop drives. I don;t want to get into a fight with them, but you might . .. . . :confused:
 
maybe it was causing more troubles then it was worth? R&D wise or something, the fact that they were doing it would have made them quite popular though! so i am confused why they dropped it.
They didn't have RE versions of the Green drives, which have a solid place in data centers due to power consumption (bean counters griping about the electricity bill). So they allowed the TLER utility to be used for that purpose (since those disks would be attached to RAID cards). But as it was also able to be done to the other consumer models, it cut into their profit margins (i.e. customers buying the cheaper, lower margin drives instead of the more expensive RE versions <7200rpm>).

Now they've got an enterprise Green, and eliminated the ability to run the TLER on any of the currently manufactured consumer models.

ahh yes well you would want to hope so! at least they still have some sense about them ;)

quick question too - for consumer drives, would you go samsung, WD or hitachi (talking 2TBs, lowest models possible). im out of space again ;)
1st choice = WD
2nd choice = Samsung

Hitachi I don't trust at all, and won't use their consumer drives (high failure rates from what I've seen and heard, and their Customer Support was absolutely awful last time I dealt with them). So they've lost me as a customer for consumer models, unless there's a significant change, and I trust the sources for that information. Their enterprise units are fine, particularly the SAS units.
 
They didn't have RE versions of the Green drives, which have a solid place in data centers due to power consumption (bean counters griping about the electricity bill). So they allowed the TLER utility to be used for that purpose (since those disks would be attached to RAID cards). But as it was also able to be done to the other consumer models, it cut into their profit margins (i.e. customers buying the cheaper, lower margin drives instead of the more expensive RE versions <7200rpm>).
aahhh i see! that makes prefect sense in the business mode side of things then and i see where they are coming from.

Now they've got an enterprise Green, and eliminated the ability to run the TLER on any of the currently manufactured consumer models.
so this enterprise version comes with the same (7,0) timings as the rest of the RE line AND has the ability to change it as well?

1st choice = WD
2nd choice = Samsung

Hitachi I don't trust at all, and won't use their consumer drives (high failure rates from what I've seen and heard, and their Customer Support was absolutely awful last time I dealt with them). So they've lost me as a customer for consumer models, unless there's a significant change, and I trust the sources for that information. Their enterprise units are fine, particularly the SAS units.
ive got 2x2TB hitacihs in raid1 at the moment, they seem fine. the Samsun and seagate 2TBs are $109, WD is $118 - seems worth the investment if you are suggesting them ;) especially since i am considering RAID0! :eek:
 
so this enterprise version comes with the same (7,0) timings as the rest of the RE line AND has the ability to change it as well?
Yes. All the RE versions have the 7,0 timing by default, and they can be adjusted with the TLER utility (though some that've tried didn't see how to adjust the actual values, just set it on/off; but it is possible). It's an old tool afterall, and has to be done via a command line (so it's not as easy as a GUI).

ive got 2x2TB hitacihs in raid1 at the moment, they seem fine. the Samsun and seagate 2TBs are $109, WD is $118 - seems worth the investment if you are suggesting them ;) especially since i am considering RAID0! :eek:
Keep in mind, my choices are based on reliability first, performance and cost after (they can change, depending on need).

I look at it this way; A super fast or cheapest capacity disk is useless if it's going to fail on me in less than 3 years of use (additional time is better of course, but I plan on a 3 year MTBR). So if they fail prior to that, they're not a bargain to me (I don't want to have to deal with RMA's, swapping out bad disks,... prior to planned instances).
 
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