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mdriftmeyer

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2004
3,813
1,989
Pacific Northwest
100% - Apple forcing everyone to use WebKit is extremely limiting and makes alternative browsers almost pointless. WebKit sucks.
Not hardly. It's rock solid and has extensive support for the latest standards. What you might want to do is go under the Developer Experimental features and explore.
 

jonblatho

macrumors 68030
Jan 20, 2014
2,510
6,206
Oklahoma
I had my fair share of troubles with supporting IE6 back in the day when it was woefully outdated and not standards compliant but had to be supported because legacy users.

That said, WebKit is widely standards compliant, it just isn’t including some additions like FileWriter for file system access (will be included soon), different media formats like WebP/WebM or OGG and hardware access APIs.

Some of these are for security reasons, some for political reasons (media formats).

All in all, for the user the enforcement of one engine on iOS still allows for competition on browser features while ensuring that websites run and look the same on iOS.

As a user what annoyed me most is that a website won’t work at all if it isn’t using chrome, because I don’t want to install Googles battery eating spyware on my machine.

The trend to web apps Is not appealing to me at all, because they all use their own UI paradigm, and I use macOS/iOS for a reason.

Concluding: it would be fair if Apple was forced to open up Safari-exclusive features like full screen video and such to all WebKit-clients. It would be nice if they were faster to fix bugs and release updates more frequently. And it would be great if there was an agreed set of features that can be reliably used by developers to deliver websites all users can enjoy. But if your site relies on cutting edge or potentially unsafe features to work, don’t be surprised if not every user is happy.
The flipside of the security coin is that when WebKit has zero-day vulnerabilities (which has happened multiple times in the past year or so) all browsers on iOS are impacted. There’s no option to use an alternative, non-WebKit browser that isn’t impacted by the vulnerability pending a fix.
 
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nvmls

Suspended
Mar 31, 2011
1,941
5,219
Not hardly. It's rock solid and has extensive support for the latest standards. What you might want to do is go under the Developer Experimental features and explore.
"Rock solid" ?

1646231386294.png
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,553
7,475
Sounds like a group of bad developers that want to not develop for standards supported by Safari and Firefox, instead they only want to develop for Chrome and Chrome “standards” like they did for IE6. Couldn’t possibly have multiple browser engines to have to test your code on.

Having to support Chrome(ium), Firefox and Safari is an absolute picnic relative to the bad old days of IE6 and earlier - especially considering how much more complex web pages/apps are today (and the extra challenge of supporting desktop/laptops, touchscreen tablets and tiny mobile screens). That said, Safari - especially mobile Safari - is lacking on some features, esp. more bleeding-edge ones, and it *is* rapidly becoming the more troublesome of the three to support. It's nothing like the royal pain that was IE6, though.

Look at the usage stats: (That may not be the best stats site, but it's hardly making extraordinary claims) Across all platforms, Chrome is dominant, Safari is a poor second, but still significant and the rest are minnows (esp. as most of them apart from Firefox are either Chromium or Webkit under the hood). I wouldn't bet against Edge in the future, but again, that's basically Chromium, so it comes down to whether you want MS or Google to harvest your data.

Tablets - (where no one really competes with iPad) are a bit different - mostly split between Chrome & Safari, with "Android" (i.e. Chromium) a distant third, and nothing else worth mentioning.

In either case, the effect of allowing competition with Safari on iOS will simply be to hand even more domination to Chrome, which is what punters are choosing in droves on the platforms that do offer a choice.

Also, I suspect some of Safari's deficiencies are "strategic" choices by Apple to limit the power of webapps - allowing Chromium browsers (and, maybe, Electron apps) could be a disincentive for developers to write "proper" native Apps - especially in the case of the iPad: part of iPad's advantage over cheap Android tablets is the availability of native Apps optimised for tablet use.
 
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webkit

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2021
2,920
2,529
United States
Microsoft didn’t make the computers they made the makers use IE or they didn’t get windows

Apple makes the iOS devices, the iOS software and this is nothing like that.

So, if you make the OS and exclusively make the hardware for it, you can be more controlling or restricting but if you only make the OS, it's a different story? Sounds like Apple found the "loophole" and is attempting to use it to their advantage as much as possible. :)
 

genovelle

macrumors 68020
May 8, 2008
2,104
2,681
I’m reminded of Microsoft and IE dominance of the 90s. Apple needs to own this up.
The difference is Apple owns the device. The problem with engines like chrome is they require installing server like elements that communicates data.
 

gsurf123

macrumors 6502
Jun 1, 2017
472
848
A non-issue for 99.9999999999999999999999999999999...% of iOS users. They use Safari and are happy with it. End users do not want complexity and they never had. It all goes back to developers biting the hand that feeds them and not realizing if iOS does not do what you want just move over to Android.
 

threesixty360

macrumors 6502a
May 2, 2007
703
1,374
I think this is a little simple.

- Apple earns $15B/year from charging Google to be the default search engine on Safari. This revenue stream would not exist if Google could not monetize search, so I think it's deceptive to say that Apple wants everything to be "private."

- Apple sells app install ads. A convenient benefit of the "privacy" protections of App Tracking Transparency is that they don't apply to Apple's ad products — only to Facebook/Instagram/Snap/etc. ad products.
Apple made $5B in revenue from ads in 2021, and that's likely to grow a ton in the coming years.
Not sure what any of that has to do with browser engines???

As for privacy, apple wants its users to choose what they share. Google / fb etc would rather you couldn’t choose.

That’s all it is.
 

lala7mac

macrumors newbie
Oct 16, 2021
9
5
No idea why anyone would use anything other than Safari on iOS. Just buy a non-iphone phone and leave Apple alone ??
Why can’t a company stick to their own rules?
So the goal here is to allow Chrome dominance on all platforms so that all web developers stop caring about other browsers reinforcing Chrome's position even more?

Chrome is already a resource-hog with a truckload of useless features. It's Google's attempt to get everyone to use it as an OS, because they're still sad they didn't get in on the OS boom of the 90s.

The future we're striving for is one where an advertising company controls the whole web. They're already 3 years behind on blocking third-party cookies because they don't want to hit their ad business. I mean, I wouldn't intentionally kill my cash cows either.

Go ahead, login to your Google account in Chrome so that their tracking and data-mining is even more effective. Leave WebKit alone.
Key word here being “allow”. You’ve just admitted that the only reason Safari/WebKit is so dominant is because that’s all they allow on iOS. Let the best browsers win based on merit. I might agree with you if iPhones weren’t the #1 phone in the world, but you’re basically advocating against what’s in the best interest of the consumer.
 
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lala7mac

macrumors newbie
Oct 16, 2021
9
5
A non-issue for 99.9999999999999999999999999999999...% of iOS users. They use Safari and are happy with it. End users do not want complexity and they never had. It all goes back to developers biting the hand that feeds them and not realizing if iOS does not do what you want just move over to Android.
Apple doesn’t feed web devs. They feed native iOS devs.
 

treedeveloper

macrumors newbie
Mar 2, 2022
7
9
So this is a bit disingenuous. While I agree Apple could be better at patching itself, and its possible that a competitor could do a better job, but its also possible that a competitor could do a worse or malicious job. I admit that I don't understand all the technicalities, but it seems to me that a browser with an independent engine is way harder to secure than a traditional app.

And yes, while most of us here are smart enough to avoid shady web browsers, a lot of others aren't. And, as with side loading, some bigger companies could easily bully less tech savvy folk into sacrificing privacy. If Facebook built in a browser to their app that tracked the user completely, lots of people would use it.

For me personally, I'd prefer to have an option of a locked down platform for something as important as my phone. I understand that others might feel differently, and for that there are other options. But if apple is forced to open this up, then I'm the one without the option.
The issue is that Webkit and Safari are tied to the OS version on Iphones. If Apple wants to apply a "Patch", it has to be through an OS update. This is not standard practice for any other browser (or even other apps on IOS). This is why the bug in question stayed open for so long, because Apple waited until their next OS update to include the fix.

This is routine for Apple, vulnerabilities in Webkit are found, they stay open for rampant abuse until the next OS update. Compared to other browser code-bases such as Chromium or Gecko (Chrome and Firefox). Chrome has a a standard 4 week release cycle that often include patches for non-public exploits, and they have the ability to quickly push a public Patch in the case that a severe vulnerability pops up. This is the basis of the argument that Safari/Webkit's security practices are no more secure than other browsers and are therefore an unjustifiable basis for excluding other browsers.

Secondly, Facebook uses the In-App browser currently to do exactly what you despise, track you. They have access to every page you visit from their apps, they can inject javascript to interact with on-page resources (even correlating Ad ids of different companies with your FB account). The current status quo does not protect you from these dangers, only obfuscates them.

If you're truly invested in fighting these bad practices, I suggest you actually track down the group and help out. One of the other initiatives is about removing the elevated permissions available to In-App browsers Spefically for the reasons above.
 
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Pecka

macrumors 6502
Jan 13, 2022
264
227
I honestly don't see why iOS have to be different from macOS when it comes to web browsers. Being able to choose is always good.
 
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F95KEN

macrumors newbie
Mar 2, 2022
1
0
I develop a webapp which uses WebRTC in the browser extensively. The implementation of WebRTC on Safari/WebKit is so poor and seems to introduce new issues with every release. It's frustrating spending so much time debugging in Safari and reducing features to try and preserve the user experience, when Chrome / Edge / Firefox all work without a hitch. The endgame is that small web developers who should be thriving on iOS have to use the Apple-provided dev tools and publishing platform to really reach users. Somewhere along the way, the web browser became a second-class citizen for Apple.

So then, why not just develop a native iOS app?

Downside to allowing apps to use third-party browser engines would be that apps on iOS could be built using Electron, rather than using native iOS APIs. Can't speak for everyone but I wouldn't say having a bunch of electron-based apps on my iOS device like I have on my Mac now would be much of an improvement to the native experience App Store apps are currently forced to offer. Electron apps are memory hogs and often have poor UX.

This is of course exactly why most web developers want Apple to stop blocking other browser engines, so they can do the lazy thing and develop electron-based apps to quickly deploy to different types of systems. But in the interest of the users, I hope Apple keeps blocking this development on iOS. Natively coded apps are more than worth being locked to the WebKit browser engine on iPhone for me.
 

treedeveloper

macrumors newbie
Mar 2, 2022
7
9
Also, I suspect some of Safari's deficiencies are "strategic" choices by Apple to limit the power of webapps - allowing Chromium browsers (and, maybe, Electron apps) could be a disincentive for developers to write "proper" native Apps - especially in the case of the iPad: part of iPad's advantage over cheap Android tablets is the availability of native Apps optimised for tablet use.
First, Electron is not mobile compatible. You might be referring to Web-Skin-Apps that are built on top of things like Apache Cordova. Second, these apps already exist and are in the App Store right now. Apple's stance here has not prevented the outcome you despise, nor have you noticed.
 

treedeveloper

macrumors newbie
Mar 2, 2022
7
9
So then, why not just develop a native iOS app?

Downside to allowing apps to use third-party browser engines would be that apps on iOS could be built using Electron, rather than using native iOS APIs. Can't speak for everyone but I wouldn't say having a bunch of electron-based apps on my iOS device like I have on my Mac now would be much of an improvement to the native experience App Store apps are currently forced to offer. Electron apps are memory hogs and often have poor UX.

This is of course exactly why most web developers want Apple to stop blocking other browser engines, so they can do the lazy thing and develop electron-based apps to quickly deploy to different types of systems. But in the interest of the users, I hope Apple keeps blocking this development on iOS. Natively coded apps are more than worth being locked to the WebKit browser engine on iPhone for me.
Electron does not run on mobile. Apps built on web technology already exist on IOS, make of a non-trivial percentage of Apps in the App store, and you have not noticed.
 

treedeveloper

macrumors newbie
Mar 2, 2022
7
9
Sounds like a group of bad developers that want to not develop for standards supported by Safari and Firefox, instead they only want to develop for Chrome and Chrome “standards” like they did for IE6. Couldn’t possibly have multiple browser engines to have to test your code on.
You might start by actually reading the document outlined. You would have found the page discussing APIs that are ONLY buggy/ incomplete/ or missing on IOS.
 

huge_apple_fangirl

macrumors 6502a
Aug 1, 2019
757
1,283
I honestly don't see why iOS have to different from macOS when it comes to web browsers. Being able to choose is always good.
On macOS the ability to install alternate engines has also allowed for the proliferation of garbage like Electron to the detriment of native apps. There are trade-offs both ways.
 
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mamcx

macrumors regular
Mar 13, 2008
210
28
Is incredible how many fall for this OBVIOUS trap.

The moment chromium can enter iOS, is the end of REAL alternatives to browser engines:

chromium IS google
IS the dominant player
IS ad-business friendly

Is safari the only major alternative (the other, firefox is doing not well today). MS was the other and it allow itself to be defeated.

Having ONE SINGLE COMPANY dominates ALL THE MARKETS...

think deeply about this.
 

treedeveloper

macrumors newbie
Mar 2, 2022
7
9
If someone could be kind enough to explain for me...

I was under the impression that Webkit was open source. So if the bug mentioned was a Webkit flaw, why was the burden placed solely on Apple to fix it to prove their point of Webkit's shortcomings? Wouldn't all possible contributors share said blame? Or was the bug inherent to Safari?
While Webkit is open source and can be contributed to by anyone (and often is by community members and Google employees), Apple has final say in what pull requests make it into each release. Sometimes they simply ignore an issue, or in this case, the "Patch" was in the webkit code-base in only a few days. The delay came about because of Apple's release schedule. See, unlike other Apps on IOS, Webkit and Safari are tied to the OS version. When Apple wants to update Webkit, it has to push a Full OS upgrade. This often manifests as delayed patches and open exploits as Apple doesn't push patch versions of the OS (except on very specific, ultra-high severity this could bankrupt us exploits). They bundle the fix with the next minor release, which is ready whenever it is ready.

Other browsers (on non-ios devices) have standard release cycles where they patch vulnerabilities that they know about that are non-public, and they have the ability to push an emergency patch version in the event that a critical vulnerability rears it's head.

So the short answer to your question is, people DO contribute code and bug fixes, but it doesn't matter when the fixes get in the code base, it matters when Apple gets around to pushing an OS Update.
 

treedeveloper

macrumors newbie
Mar 2, 2022
7
9
Is incredible how many fall for this OBVIOUS trap.

The moment chromium can enter iOS, is the end of REAL alternatives to browser engines:

chromium IS google
IS the dominant player
IS ad-business friendly

Is safari the only major alternative (the other, firefox is doing not well today). MS was the other and it allow itself to be defeated.

Having ONE SINGLE COMPANY dominates ALL THE MARKETS...

think deeply about this.
People have, and you're unfortunately incorrect. MS for example uses the Chromium project as it's base for the Edge browser (as you mentioned). However, what you failed to mention is that Edge HAS the up to date tracking prevention you lambast Chrome for lacking (which is understandable). Versions of Chromium have distinct differences that allow them to compete with one another. The most privacy conscious browser by most Metrics (Brave) is built on Chromium. Opening up IOS wont automatically squash Safari. It will compete with the other browsers on an even playing field, to gain and lose market share according to it's users' preference.

Second, we do not justify one companies anti-competitive behavior because another company is being anti-competitive. We go after both. The Open Web Advocacy group has other initiatives aimed at protecting user privacy and consumer choice (such as replacing In-App browsers with Remote Tab functionality instead to avoid the hosting app from having elevated permissions to inspect, record, and ultimately track whatever content you view through the in-app browser. FB on IOS uses this method right now to track what IOS users visit from FB apps and even correlate third party Ad ids with your FB account).
 
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