Web Developers Form Advocacy Group to Allow Other Browser Engines on iOS

[hasanahmad]

I have supported Apple on its talking points about:

1. CSAM
2. App store wall garden
3. Case against Epic
4. Case against Spotify
5. Case against Facebook

And this is one time I agree with those outside Apple. There is no security risk or excuse of allowing engines other than webkit to have their own engine in the Apple app store.

Google Chrome should be allowed to use Chromium engine
Mozilla should be allowed to use Firefox engine
Microsoft edge should be allowed to use Chromium engine

 

[nvmls]

Is incredible how many fall for this OBVIOUS trap.

The moment chromium can enter iOS, is the end of REAL alternatives to browser engines:

chromium IS google
IS the dominant player
IS ad-business friendly

Is safari the only major alternative (the other, firefox is doing not well today). MS was the other and it allow itself to be defeated.

Having ONE SINGLE COMPANY dominates ALL THE MARKETS...

think deeply about this.

Then put some real talent behind and improve your own browser to at least "on par" with the rest.

 

[HQuest]

I guess because the other vendors have to call the WebKit engine "embedded" in the OS, rather than implement their own, so if Apple doesn't fix a particular bug it affects all apps that call it.

Which brings us to a few great points.

User defines browser X as default. Then launches an application that relies on WebKit, but since browser X is the default, doesn’t launch on the embedded browser. Now the user and the application developer will blame Apple for their app not working, because the user picked a non- fully supported browser. Or the app developer will need to code the app with support for browser A, B, C, or build its own, to ensure his app works as intended.

Or user installs browser X. Then browser X needs direct access to the hardware to perform specific functions. The first attack on this browser will give it elevated privileges on the device, and then the whole security of iOS goes away.

If by Apple “not fixing one bug in a timely fashion” means they have not done it as other times they put an update out in 2-3 days after found, more so as it was found during Xmas/NYE holidays and it is outrageous for devs to have time off for family and personal life, good luck trying to get your browser X app developer to fix something on iOS when they cannot even make their own secure.

 

[gaximus]

Webkit is much slower to fix bugs and adopt new features than other big browser engines.

Most people who build large websites dislike and complain about Webkit the most — but you have to do silly things to support it because Apple doesn't allow alternative browser engines on iOS.
It's like IE 7 if you were around the web in the mid-00s...

Its been nice, as a web developer, to not have to support IE anymore since Microsoft went to Chromium. But allowing more browser engines, will be more work for developers, because there will be more silly things to support.
Also WebKit is faster at JavaScript/TypeScript, run any JavaScript speed test on the same machine in both Safari and Chrome or Edge.

JetStream 2.1

browserbench.org

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

Safari is a great browser. It is not a great "OS replacement" (not that Chrome is either, but it tries...). The point of this advocacy group is to force Apple to support another platform on top of their own platform- Chrome OS. PWAs are not standard, they were invented by Google for Chrome OS. WebBluetooth, WebUSB are not standards (Mozilla and Apple reject it because of privacy concerns), they are Google inventions. Web devs want to be app developers without having to make actual apps. If your "app" is actually a website in a wrapper, either leave it as a website or make it a real app. Apple invests billions into native UI, APIs, and silicon- and they want developers to take advantage of that. Google invests billions into advertising and web technologies- and they want developers to take advantage of that. That's fine, but why should Google's desire to control every platform trump Apple's desire to control one platform? Is it because Apple's platform is the most profitable? Well then, maybe they're doing something right.

 

[LV426]

I have supported Apple on its talking points about:

1. CSAM
2. App store wall garden
3. Case against Epic
4. Case against Spotify
5. Case against Facebook

And this is one time I agree with those outside Apple. There is no security risk or excuse of allowing engines other than webkit to have their own engine in the Apple app store.

Google Chrome should be allowed to use Chromium engine
Mozilla should be allowed to use Firefox engine
Microsoft edge should be allowed to use Chromium engine

I'm pretty sure that what you have there is an invalid opinion.

 

[topdrawer]

I can see it now.


“Please download chrome to see your bank account”

 

[Jessica Lares]

I think Google's going to only have the advantage at the beginning. We need new ideas, but we need the mobile browser marketshare to have anything go anywhere.

 

[rwalle]

You are free to choose not to use Chrome, on any platform, like you have always been able to do. I myself don't use Chrome unless there is a specific need for it.

Stop whining.

 

[topdrawer]

You are free to choose not to use Chrome, on any platform, like you have always been able to do. I myself don't use Chrome unless there is a specific need for it.

Stop whining.

that's the point. developers don't want to develop for multiple platforms, just chrome. "specific need for it" will be on the rise. so far "specific need for it" only happens on desktops.

 

[_Spinn_]

This is just code for "we don't want to test or code for anything except Chrome"

 

[topdrawer]

This is just code for "we don't want to test or code for anything except Chrome"

yes. if developers had their way we all would use android.

 

[pier]

I’m reminded of Microsoft and IE dominance of the 90s. Apple needs to own this up.

This is much worse.

At least on Windows you could install other browsers.

 

[pier]

If someone could be kind enough to explain for me...

I was under the impression that Webkit was open source. So if the bug mentioned was a Webkit flaw, why was the burden placed solely on Apple to fix it to prove their point of Webkit's shortcomings? Wouldn't all possible contributors share said blame? Or was the bug inherent to Safari?

The code is open source, but Apple remains in control and they don't have much interest in others collaborating.

I've submitted bugs to Webkit for years. The first one in 2016. None have been solved so far. Some even don't even have a response from the WebKit team.

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

yes. if developers had their way we all would use android.

No, if web developers had their way we would all run Chrome OS, literally or practically.

Apple and Google (and by extension, web devs) have different visions for computing. Apple's vision is a single integrated device running native code curated by Apple. Google's vision is a web browser running web apps, overseen by Google. Neither vision is right or wrong. What's great is that we have a diverse computing ecosystem where Apple, Google, and others can all create their own platforms and consumers can choose which they prefer. The problem is that while Apple's model only requires the support of Apple's platforms to be viable, the web developer model requires the support of every platform to be viable.

Who's the monopoly again?

 

[npmacuser5]

100% - Apple forcing everyone to use WebKit is extremely limiting and makes alternative browsers almost pointless. WebKit sucks.

I love my iPhone. The issue is, using Safari, not all websites work. I have an issue with Citi's website on both the iPhone and Mac with Safari and in order to get to the site properly, I have to use a Mac with a different browser

Why not use Citi’s app? I use Citi’s app all the time. The point of the iPhone and iPad OS is apps. Especially on the iPhone. I use Safari on my iPhone rarely if ever. The Mac, as you pointed out works on the few occasions Safari fails. I have not found any web browsers that are 100%. Most failures are on the website side of the equation, poorly written narrow focus code.

 

[Jetscreamer]

Prodigy is way better than Earthlink.

I beg to differ sir. Compuserve is my go to ISP.

 

[Jetscreamer]

I want Firefox with the Gecko engine.

 

[Kuckuckstein]

I demand these developers build their own phone, OS, support them and service them, before asking others to do it for their own “demands”.

Yea, I am aware developers are the ones who made the iPhone so incredibly popular, but nobody has or is forcing a developer to develop to iOS. It was for own choice, so demanding this sounds as clever as you wanting to use a Porsche engine on a Mercedes car.

Nothing has ever connected people and different devices like the internet. It was conceived as a means to share knowledge no matter what device you use to put information or retrieve it. And it has driven UI design and open standards that everybody benefits from.

When Apple released their first version of Safari, they highly benefited from this open approach to a collectively owned platform - the web. With them restricting browsers to only use their render engine they work against this community.

I am fully fine with Apple setting standards for what engines should be allowed and not allowed to do. But just locking things to WebKit is dumb.

 

[czoli]

Keep IOS secure don't give in to third party browsers.

WebKit is buggy like hell and is the new IE.

WebRTC, especially, is a constant nightmare with new horrible bugs at every release, especially audio issues.

 

[czoli]

I want Firefox with the Gecko engine.

Firefox is dead, TBH, as sad as it sounds it is the reality

 

[q64ceo]

So the goal here is to allow Chrome dominance on all platforms so that all web developers stop caring about other browsers reinforcing Chrome's position even more?

Chrome is already a resource-hog with a truckload of useless features. It's Google's attempt to get everyone to use it as an OS, because they're still sad they didn't get in on the OS boom of the 90s.

The future we're striving for is one where an advertising company controls the whole web. They're already 3 years behind on blocking third-party cookies because they don't want to hit their ad business. I mean, I wouldn't intentionally kill my cash cows either.

Go ahead, login to your Google account in Chrome so that their tracking and data-mining is even more effective. Leave WebKit alone.

Nice spin.

Using Google fear is a good way to try to poison the discussion. But it doesn't work when you're called out on it.

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

So the goal here is to allow Chrome dominance on all platforms so that all web developers stop caring about other browsers reinforcing Chrome's position even more?

Chrome is already a resource-hog with a truckload of useless features. It's Google's attempt to get everyone to use it as an OS, because they're still sad they didn't get in on the OS boom of the 90s.

The future we're striving for is one where an advertising company controls the whole web. They're already 3 years behind on blocking third-party cookies because they don't want to hit their ad business. I mean, I wouldn't intentionally kill my cash cows either.

Go ahead, login to your Google account in Chrome so that their tracking and data-mining is even more effective. Leave WebKit alone.

Yep. wouldn't everything be so great if web devs didn't have to validate their code against anything other than Chrome? Isn't that really all the the world needs? Cushier dev gigs?

 

[theotherphil]

Chrome is a resource hog on MacOS….what makes these people think that they can provide a web browser more secure, as fast or as efficient than Apple on Apple’s own hardware? This hasn’t been the case on MacOS.

 

[mamcx]

Versions of Chromium have distinct differences that allow them to compete with one another. Opening up IOS wont automatically squash Safari.

I have more than 20 years of developing and have seen this playbook many times. Just because SMALL, TINY "alternative" exists does not change the fact that the GORILLA is on.

Every usage of chromium is PLUS for Google. Is feed the support for its development, and more importantly:

Is make sure THEIR APIs ARE THE STANDARD.

This is the key, major point.

Is the same when windows were nearly the only game on top. MS super-happy people make "competitive" apps, as long are done on windows apis.

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The sad, and important truth, is that "standards" are not magically implemented because that is so nice. Is because the MAJOR players are both competing, and forced to work together.

Apple has the card of iOS, and is the ONLY way to make safari "viable".

Safari is supported because the market of iOS is important, the moment developers, like me, can target chromium is the END.

Literally.

That is the moment bosses and customers start saying: Just target chrome, ignore iOS/Safari, lets go electron-like!

Making "electron's" and "web apps as native replacements" is 100% for the benefit of Google, and only incidentally for SOME users.

Google DO NOT CARE for Ux, only care it can get a bigfoot in each market so ITS goals are on top of anyone else.

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or we can hope for dreams, like see how *nix developers implement this and win.

Or accept reality: As long major players have this only 2 exponents of what the web is, the web still is open.