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Looks like legal issues will be heading Apple’s way.
People have to stop assuming that everything we don't like is somehow a matter for the courts. If every party that had a grievance against Apple (or any company) got their way, there would be no more Apple. At some point we need to accept that companies have the right to use their discretion to decide what technologies and features they are going to support in their products and we are free to agree or disagree and vote with our feet or our wallets to the degree that we feel it impacts us.
 
I use Edge on my iPhone and so far it’s works just as well for what I do. I also use the outlook email app so links from email open up in edge.
But that's the point, you're NOT using Edge, just a tiny UI wrapper around Safari/Webkit. So while Edge Desktop was patched immediate and was safe from this IndexedDB bug, your Edge on iOS was not. You were still vulnerable
 
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That's a straw man argument no one is arguing for for. We are advocating for CHOICE. If you think choice=dominance then you clearly don't have much confidence in Apple. 64% of MacOS users use, surprise!, Safari. Why? Because it's the default browser. That is the huge power Apple has, and always will have. Safari is in no danger of being 'dominated'.
 
"Safari is a great browser. It is not a great "OS replacement" …The point of this advocacy group is to force Apple to support another platform on top of their own platform". Nah, as you said, Safari isn't a platform. We want Apple to allow other rendering engines to integrate with its platform, just as Firefox is allowed on Mac, Windows, Linux and Android.
But why do you want other rendering engines? Because Safari is "behind" in features that would allow the web to become an alternative to native apps. On the Mac, I believe that allowing other rendering engines on the platform has been destructive because it has allowed for technologies like Electron. (I also don't like it when websites ask me to allow notifications.) iOS generally has the most, and highest-quality native apps compared to other platforms, which I like. I believe the banning of Chromium and other Web technologies/features is a part of that. So how does one add other browsers to iOS while respecting my (and other users') choice to have a platform that prioritizes native apps? You will have increased browser choice while decreasing choice between platforms with different philosophies about apps.
"WAs are not standard, they were invented by Google for Chrome OS." - this isn't true. PWAs were an offshoot of W3C Widgets (invented by Opera), and developed by Mozilla (Marcos Caceres moved from Opera Widgets to Firefox), Chrome and me and my team at Opera.
OK, I'm sorry, I didn't know the history. But at this point it (and most web technologies) are heavily pushed and adopted by Google, including ones that may have privacy issues. This is because Google is a Web company and has a vested interest in the Web being a viable replacement to the OS (see Chrome OS). I don't see that as a problem, and they are free to push their vision, which happens to align with web developers’ views. But Apple is a hardware company, and they have a different vision for what role the Web should play. What's wrong with that?
 
The problem with limiting browsers on iOS and iPadOS devices to webkit is a lack of competition to encourage Apple to support new technologies. A compromise would be for Apple to enter into a binding agreement with a web standards organization to fully support any standards. That way, Apple can maintain the security of controlling the browser engine while still being legally obligated to support new technologies.
 
Did you read the article? Safari/WebKit is NOT secure, that's the entire point. Is MacOS horribly compromised because Edge/Chrome/Firefox are allowed to ship full versions? Of course not.
Solution: Apple invests more in WebKit, not allowing other engines.

I don’t like the argument “well the Mac has other browsers and it’s fine” because it’s not fine! There’s a reason native apps are doing great on iOS and while the desktop gets Chromium shells. The reason developers are angling for Chromium on iPhone is not because it increases choice for users (the browser features users care about is not the engine, so from a user perspective there already is choice) but because it increases choice for them. Because they want to use web technologies that Apple doesn’t allow on iOS. Which, as we can see by what these technologies did to the desktop, Apple has very good reasons not to support.
 
Chromium is completely open-source and is miles better than WebKit - plus Microsoft is helping Google with it now.

It's nothing like IE in the 90s. The Web would benefit from a common standard.
The Web has always had common standards. The problem is when specific companies have too much control over those standards. Being "open sourced" doesn't negate or remove a controlling company's influence.

We may irreconcilably disagree on this but I feel healthy development of web technology should come from a growing set of standards implemented in competing engines, NOT a single engine that sets the standard. That was one of the big problems with IE in the 90's. Websites had to support Microsoft's version of the web standards not the actual common standards and we're seeing that again with Chrome/Chromium already.

I think we both agree that WebKit (also completely open source, if that is it's own virtue) needs massive improvements.
 
But Apple is a hardware company, and they have a different vision for what role the Web should play. What's wrong with that?
It's not even about PWAs, which is another pearl in the collar. In fact, I'd burn all the Electron garbage myself, but let's not pretend Apple is setting any kind of example with the level of software they are putting out under their "native" apps.

They are forcing people to use a mediocre product, far from their so called "privacy", slow support, performance, poor dev tools, anemic extensions ecosystem (mostly cash grabs), lately even a massive UX nose dive. All in all, I'm always checking it to see if it improves, but it's the same trash over and over. The feedback submitted is entirely ignored 99% of the time, even plain bugs.

If you want to force users, at least make it the best on every single aspect mentioned above.
 
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Did you read the article? Safari/WebKit is NOT secure, that's the entire point. Is MacOS horribly compromised because Edge/Chrome/Firefox are allowed to ship full versions? Of course not.
The question is not whether or not webkit only is secure. It's not. The question is whether webkit only is more secure than the alternative.

"Don’t compare me to the Almighty, compare me to the alternative." :)
 
They are forcing people to use a mediocre product, far from their so called "privacy", slow support, performance, poor dev tools, anemic extensions ecosystem (mostly cash grabs), lately even a massive UX nose dive. All in all, I'm always checking it to see if it improves, but it's the same trash over and over. The feedback submitted is entirely ignored 99% of the time, even plain bugs.

If you want to force users, at least make it the best on every single aspect mentioned above.
You make some great points I hadn’t fully considered. The question is how to allow browser engine competition without also bringing along everything else. At the very least Apple needs to invest more in Safari, and decouple Safari updates from iOS.
 
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You make some great points I hadn’t fully considered. The question is how to allow browser engine competition without also bringing along everything else. At the very least Apple needs to invest more in Safari, and decouple Safari updates from iOS.
Exactly.
 
Seeing how Safari security bugs take the longest (and a full OS update) to fix when compared to other browsers - and that these bugs affect every single iOS user, no matter which "browser" they use - this argument can be quite easily dismissed. The CMA, for example, already does.
I disagree. Apple are more than capable of rolling out minor OS updates to address important security issues in short shrift. I believe that happened not so long ago. Since WebKit is used extensively throughout iOS, as well as by Safari, a security problem is de facto an operating system problem.

Apple do not provide arbitrary updates to individual operating system components, e.g. WebKit (and many other components). They probably could if they wanted, but that could complicate matters for end users. They know where they are with the version of iOS they have installed. Things could get a lot more complicated if iOS and the numerous components it depends on had separate update mechanisms. As has been discussed earlier, WebKit is shared all over the place in iOS for efficiency reasons.

Our hope is that allowing competition will create incentive for Apple to actually compete and invest in WebKit so users want to keep using it even if there are alternatives and developers want to support it because it's a great browser.
That's not exactly easy as pie when numerous components of WebKit go mainstream on other devices (e.g. Android/Chrome), and they turn out to have serious security implications.

As far as I'm concerned, Apple WebKit gets updated quite often enough. Minor OS updates happen relatively quickly. I certainly wouldn't want to see Apple forced into accepting flaky WebKit 'standards' that compromise my security and privacy.
 
But that's the point, you're NOT using Edge, just a tiny UI wrapper around Safari/Webkit. So while Edge Desktop was patched immediate and was safe from this IndexedDB bug, your Edge on iOS was not. You were still vulnerable
The counter argument to this (and I do wish people would stop saying that other iOS browsers are wrappers around Safari - they use WebKit is all)...

Imagine you have four different browser installed on iOS, and each of them has its own version of WebKit. If each version shares a similar vulnerability (they are all forked from the same base), than all four browsers put you at risk. Other core iOS will also be putting you at risk, since WebKit is a shared iOS component.

Now, that means Apple plus the other three browser vendors will have to update their codebase in order to make your life safer. I'm not sure that really constitutes safe practise.
 
As far as I'm concerned, Apple WebKit gets updated quite often enough. Minor OS updates happen relatively quickly. I certainly wouldn't want to see Apple forced into accepting flaky WebKit 'standards' that compromise my security and privacy.
You've had IndexedDB bug leaking data all over throughout 57 days and you call this petition a "compromise" of your "security" & "privacy", guess you didn't even read the article. Also, your "privacy & security" are no better than most browsers, in fact worse than some.
 
You've had IndexedDB bug leaking data all over throughout 57 days and you call this petition a "compromise" of your "security" & "privacy", guess you didn't even read the article. Also, your "privacy & security" are no better than most browsers, in fact worse than some.
A single bug (now fixed) isn't proof that Apple's solution is less secure than the alternative. That said, the delay in patching the bug is absolutely something that Apple should fix.
 
A single bug (now fixed) isn't proof that Apple's solution is less secure than the alternative. That said, the delay in patching the bug is absolutely something that Apple should fix.
You wish it was a "single bug" and of course it is, every other major browser patched it sooner than your very private Safari.

Compact view still has the same UI glitches reported before even releasing it, favicons / titles disappearing, url bar getting cut, etc, etc, etc. Imagine they took 57 days to address IndexedDB, these may never be addressed at all.

1646329603528.png

1646329817166.png
 
You wish it was a "single bug" and of course it is, every other major browser patched it sooner than your very private Safari.

Compact view still has the same UI glitches reported before even releasing it, favicons / titles disappearing, url bar getting cut, etc, etc, etc. Imagine they took 57 days to address IndexedDB, these may never be addressed at all.

View attachment 1967419
View attachment 1967420
None of that addresses the question of whether limiting iOS to webkit for browsing is more secure than allowing multiple browser engines. I'd argue that it is. I don't want to have to wonder what version of what engine some random app that I downloaded is using.

I'd also argue that this bug is probably fixed for a larger percentage of iOS users than Android users.
 
None of that addresses the question of whether limiting iOS to webkit for browsing is more secure than allowing multiple browser engines. I'd argue that it is. I don't want to have to wonder what version of what engine some random app that I downloaded is using.

I'd also argue that this bug is probably fixed for a larger percentage of iOS users than Android users.
None of that addresses the fact that Safari is trash and there is no choice in iOS. On desktop having options, they have a measly 9.81% market share. The rest is speculation.
 
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None of that addresses the fact that Safari is trash and there is no choice in iOS. On desktop having options, they have a measly 9.81% market share. The rest is speculation.

Safari's "desktop" share is tied to about 15.8% worldwide macOS share which means that approximately 62% of browser usage on macOS is Safari. It certainly could be better but also could be worse.
 
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Take a look at their website and you will see it only has to do with money and nothing else. They are using the cover of security and choice to hide the fact that they want to make an end run around the App Store. In other words they want to ride for free. I have had it with these fake do-gooders who want to force companies (or the government to force them) to change their business model. If you do not like something then get a different job. No one is forcing you to develop for a platform nor is it the governments place to dictate what companies can and cannot do with their products. I realize it is hard for many to believe but no company is under any obligation to help your company survive.

I, like nearly everyone else on earth, will never use anything but native apps. If you do not natively develop for iOS or Android then you keep yourself in obscurity. I have yet to meet anyone outside of the group that posts here that care about the Safari engine. Regular people just need their phone to work without being saddled with any choices. You could not even to begin to explain a rendering engine to someone who is not a developer.
 
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Safari's "desktop" share is tied to about 15.8% worldwide macOS share which means that approximately 62% of browser usage on macOS is Safari. It certainly could be better but also could be worse.
How much of that would be devs? The Apple U.S. Maps bubble play all over? Plot twist: Safari is just a casual browser now? STP another poor attempt at what?
 
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