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kdarling

macrumors P6
Apple Pay does not work with a passcode, only with TouchID (/Face ID iPhone X).

Okay, now your other posts make sense. You have the common misconception that Apple Pay is somehow dependent on biometrics. It's not. Biometrics are simply a shortcut to the passcode.

That's why Apple Pay certainly works with a passcode if desired. In fact, if TouchID fails five times in a row (if say, your finger was wet), then Apple Pay will request the passcode instead.

You can even turn off TouchID for Apple Pay entirely and always use a passcode to pay with, an option that people with bad fingerprints (like a bricklayer) might want:

iphone7-ios11-settings-touch-id-passcode.jpg

Not to mention that Apple Pay on the Apple Watch doesn't even have its own authentication method, much less TouchID. Instead, it relies on the user having entered their passcode on their phone.

If it helps, here's Apple's own Apple Pay security document, where they state that, "... you must authenticate using Touch ID or your passcode ..."
 
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dontwalkhand

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2007
6,367
2,861
Phoenix, AZ
Actually, cashiers have the option to run chip cards as regular swipe cards. I have actually used my chip card that way when the card wasn't working in the chip reader for some reason just a couple of weeks ago. There is more flexibility in the system then some would lead you to believe. Thus it is still possible to use Samsung Pay as well.
Incorrect as a person who works in this industry. Why Samsung Pay still works is it creates a fake chipless card without the service code stating there’s a chip. Hence allowing you to still use Samsung Pay on chip reading terminals.

Cashiers can’t bypass the chip reader. You have to insert a card and have it fail at least 3 times before it allows you to swipe. The bank will flag this as a fallback, and if they see it happen a lot in a day; they’ll just block the whole card, and you need a new one with a working chip.
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This is from a practical point. I've used Apple Pay since the beginning, and there have been cases where I've seen the Android Pay logo, see people use their Android Pay in line before me, and when it came to my purchase, it didn't go through. the terminal simply didn't register the purchase, and my Watch just had the card on the face, looking at me.
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Apple Pay saved my vacation in Canada. OK, that's a little extreme, but our cards didn't work there... No Cip, No PIN, and the merchants wouldn't take our cards. I remembered that I had Apple Pay, and went ahead and tried it at London Drug, and it worked!

I think you're right... I've used it at a lot of places and they marvel that it works, even now, three years later.
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Will do. The place I was at was in Washington State, and I'm in South Carolina now.
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Like I put above... I'll name names when I encounter them. Yeah, I get those places, but if I ran the Samsung Store or the Microsoft Store, I'd be all in on taking Apple Owner's money buying my products as a competitor. It'd most likely be a one time use of Apple Pay there, as henceforth, they'd be using Android Pay after that.

EDIT: I remember... it was Safeway in Lynnwood, WA, at 148th and WA99 that didn't take Apple Pay, but did take Android Pay. This is a recollection from about 6 months ago. I think Lowe's down in Mt. Peasant, SC is also one of those too. I'll double check this weekend.
It’s 2017 and your cards still don’t have a chip? Who do you bank with so I know to avoid them! All of my banks issue chip cards, and I live in Phoenix! And no problem using my Wells Fargo debit in Canada or Europe. Apple Pay worked as well in Canada, but had resistance to people using it in Mexico, as the cashiers were very weary of it in mexico.
 

MadeTheSwitch

macrumors 65816
Apr 20, 2009
1,193
15,781
Incorrect as a person who works in this industry. Why Samsung Pay still works is it creates a fake chipless card without the service code stating there’s a chip. Hence allowing you to still use Samsung Pay on chip reading terminals.

Ah, but earlier it was stated Samsung Pay would not work with chip reading terminals...this is false. They do.

As for cashiers not being able to bypass, hmmmmm, my card did not fail three times and they were able to run it differently so I guess you'd have to take that up with them as I know what I saw and what happened and what the employees said themselves "just run it as a regular swipe", said manager to employee. They were having massive problems with this reader though, not just on my card, so maybe when a reader goes bad it unlocks the ability???
 

dontwalkhand

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2007
6,367
2,861
Phoenix, AZ
Ah, but earlier it was stated Samsung Pay would not work with chip reading terminals...this is false. They do.

As for cashiers not being able to bypass, hmmmmm, my card did not fail three times and they were able to run it differently so I guess you'd have to take that up with them as I know what I saw and what happened and what the employees said themselves "just run it as a regular swipe", said manager to employee. They were having massive problems with this reader though, not just on my card, so maybe when a reader goes bad it unlocks the ability???
When a reader goes bad it is doing as intended and allow fallback.
 

JeffyTheQuik

macrumors 68020
Aug 27, 2014
2,468
2,407
Charleston, SC and Everett, WA
Incorrect as a person who works in this industry. Why Samsung Pay still works is it creates a fake chipless card without the service code stating there’s a chip. Hence allowing you to still use Samsung Pay on chip reading terminals.

Cashiers can’t bypass the chip reader. You have to insert a card and have it fail at least 3 times before it allows you to swipe. The bank will flag this as a fallback, and if they see it happen a lot in a day; they’ll just block the whole card, and you need a new one with a working chip.
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It’s 2017 and your cards still don’t have a chip? Who do you bank with so I know to avoid them! All of my banks issue chip cards, and I live in Phoenix! And no problem using my Wells Fargo debit in Canada or Europe. Apple Pay worked as well in Canada, but had resistance to people using it in Mexico, as the cashiers were very weary of it in mexico.
That was in 2015... (sorry for the confusion) Apparently, when you live in Everett, WA, and go 100 miles north to Vancouver, WA, it's a lot different than going 1000 miles from Everett, WA to San Diego, CA. One is "out of the area" and the other is "spend all you like!".

We got our chipped card in September that year, and the funny thing was that we could use the card at ATM's to get cash, but not at stores to buy toiletries.
 

D582

macrumors member
Nov 16, 2015
41
35
Toronto/San Francisco
Why do you need to enter a PIN, Is TouchID not good enough?

Yeah that’s my biggest gripe with Apple Pay. Some pos sales still require a pin. If I run my debt card as credit and don’t need cash back the system should allow the purchase to be authorized without entering my pin.

You’re it doing wrong...no, seriously, you should be able to run it as credit card, most places where “enter pin” shows up in terminal, I just hit enter, (without entering any numbers), and it should run it as credit not debit. Unfortunately, some places, you do that, and you still have to sign it...the U.S. has old fashioned policies where the merchant’s financial institution may still require a signature :rolleyes:

In the UK we never have to use a PIN with ApplePay. We just hold the device over the terminal with TouchID activated and Boom! Transaction complete. I use it all the time in many stores. If I had to use a PIN as well I'd still use the old plastic card as there would be no benefit whatsoever in ApplePay

As you've alluded to, it is unfortunate that the merchant software for the terminal seems to drive some of the experience, and different merchants have set it up in very different ways.

Most merchants require a signature in addition to ApplePay, but that's because VISA/Mastercard charge the retailers for signature verification whether it's needed or not, and the retailers don't get to opt out of that.

Non-fast food restaurants really need to get onboard with Apple Pay. Running through my past month of expenses, I had to use my physical credit card at 10 different restaurants and 3 times at gas stations. In the same time period, I was able to use Apple Pay for groceries 3 times. So I'm up to around 19% of my in-person (as opposed to online) transactions being through Apple Pay.

Yup, this is what I have been seeing. Sprouts at one point had apple pay and you didn't have to enter a pin, but now that they went to the generic contactless payment we have to enter a pin. Same with Trader Joes and some of the gas stations we go to.

Not just this but I had to sign for a transaction after using Apple Pay at a Wegman's grocery store. Completely defeats the purpose.

There are a couple of issues at play with this poor and confusing user experience in the US. First, most US merchants that take contactless payments have not implemented it correctly and still only support the 'legacy' contactless protocols which transmit data similar to that of a magnetic stripe transaction. Transaction handling, including signature and PIN requirements will mimic the experience when you would swipe a card.

Merchants need to implement the newer EMV contactless protocols to make the experience better. This, along with a what is known as Consumer Device Cardholder Verification Method (CDCVM) allows for Touch ID or phone passcode to act as cardholder verification and therefore not require an additional signature or PIN, at least for credit card transactions. (If you go to the UK for example, it is very common these days to see a message like 'Cardholder Device Verified' on the receipt when using Apple Pay).

US debit cards are a different story because of the way that these transactions have been routed in the US and with current US debit card regulations. Without getting into the minute details, even with a terminal implementing the latest contactless protocols, you may still need to sign or enter a PIN depending on how the merchant has decided to route the transaction.

At least in the US, this is one area Samsung Pay has an advantage. Not sure why they are the only ones that are doing it.

Simple, they have a patent on MST that enables this, through their acquisition of LoopPay. Apple sees magnetic stripe as a dead technology for payments anyways, which is especially true in most markets outside the US.

Every month I email Kroger asking them to enable Apple Pay (they do one of the android ones).

They can do Samsung Pay because of MST. I have heard rumours of Kroger testing contactless payments but not sure what their status is.

I just wish Target would get on board. And Home Depot. And gas stations ... definitely gas stations.

Home Depot had it, and then disabled it. They use the same system in Canada and have not enabled it there either, despite our much higher use of contactless.

Target (and definitely Wal-Mart) don't like contactless very much as it hinders their data collection and mining efforts.

I just hope Canadian banks get on board wtih this REALLY fast very soon!

This will first require the Interac Flash protocol to be updated to support ATM transactions. It currently does not support this. (I think it eventually will, but I wouldn't expect it 'tomorrow').

Chipotle sucks ass anyway, and refuse to even do chip cards in full chip countries like Canada.

Chipotle has chip and contactless in Canada now, at least the last time I walked past one (I don't eat there).

That's actually incorrect. MST passes a one time use token, not your credit card number. The bank knows the one time use token is associated with your credit card. Its just as secure as NFC, just accepted at way more places in the US.... like pretty much every place that takes a credit card. http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/132...y-how-does-it-work-and-which-banks-support-it

I did not know that. However, realize, if a machine accepts chip and pin cards but not NFC, you’ll still have to get the card out and put it in the slot, you won’t be able to use the MST function.

Samsung Pay via MST is more secure than a magnetic stripe card, but is not as secure as EMV based contactless payments. It will work at EMV chip enabled terminals as the data it transmits is supposed to include a 1XX service code which indicates that the card does not have an EMV chip. There have been some banks not provisioning the cards properly and including a 2XX service code, which will force a chip card to be inserted.
 

ArtOfWarfare

macrumors G3
Nov 26, 2007
9,541
6,028
And gas stations ... definitely gas stations.

I think that too every time when I see articles on Apple Pay. Then I remember I’ll be getting my Tesla Model 3 before long, and that I’m just a few months from the last time I ever buy gas.

I’ll stop buying gas before most of the chains switch to contactless, I’ll bet.
 
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dontwalkhand

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2007
6,367
2,861
Phoenix, AZ
I think that too every time when I see articles on Apple Pay. Then I remember I’ll be getting my Tesla Model 3 before long, and that I’m just a few months from the last time I ever buy gas.

I’ll stop buying gas before most of the chains switch to contactless, I’ll bet.
Many of the non Tesla charging stations also have contactless, you’re good there.
 
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