What are the odds that Apple will ditch the Touchbar with the next redesign?

[OUsooner08]

That is the point: I'm not hitting them, it takes but the softes little touch for the Touch Bar to react...

Except it doesn’t, I’ve had multiple machines in my business with the TB and I have to deliberately touch it for it to react. If you’re typing normally they way you’re taught in computer class accidental brushing of the TB shouldn’t event be possible.

 

[OUsooner08]

Quote in bold above is THE BEST description on the negatives of the Touch Bar - Another note, people are able to articulate why the TB is a pita (like the post above) but not so much why TB is a good thing...

That being said - in order to have more battery life and a fan in case your workflow requires you to do very process intensive tasks with lots of disk I/O, you have to take the TB down your throat - lol.... I don't blame Apple, that is their strategy and I respect that. I wish it was different, but it is what it is...Apple has its strategy, I can either take it or leave it.

It’s been clearly articulated the benefits of the TB. Several times in this thread. It just seems anti-TB people gloss over it.

 

[1240766]

It’s been clearly articulated the benefits of the TB. Several times in this thread. It just seems anti-TB people gloss over it.

Yeah, by you and another...lol

 

[chabig]

The touch bar also lets you skip ads on YouTube. That’s huge in my opinion. Without if there is no way to avoid watching 5 second previews. With it, you just advance past the ad.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Except it doesn’t, I’ve had multiple machines in my business with the TB and I have to deliberately touch it for it to react. If you’re typing normally they way you’re taught in computer class accidental brushing of the TB shouldn’t event be possible.

In my experience the Touch Bar is about as sensitive as my phone's screen, and that too requires just the softest of touches to react, if you touch something like a button or icon meant to activate something.

Never had any typing lessons as a part of any computer classes though, regrettably, so I'm typing my way...

(Back in the mid-80s I wanted to take touch typing, for old school type writers, though we had a very old fashioned administrator at our school, and she didn't allow boys to take touch type, because "that was for girls" who were destined to become secretaries or whatever; so I took some computer classes, held on some ZX Spectrum-like machines, and the rubber buttons on those made them very poor for any kind of typing lessons, so all we did were some simple programming lessons instead.)

 

[Apple_Robert]

The difference between the Touch Bar and physical keys is that just the slightest graze on the Touch Bar is enough to trigger it, while with physical keys you have to press them down, making it that much harder to indadvertedly do something unintended.

If you always manage to just touch the keys you intended, good for you, but I'm not that precise in my typing; especially when typing numbers, which I typically do with my index finger, making it easy to graze the F keys with the middle finger. With physical keys this is not a problem...with the Touch Bar...well...I manage to make enough contact with that to trigger unwanted behaviour often enough for it to be annoying.

Remember, just because you are happy with something, everyone else might not be. This is why BTO options are good, making it easier for most people to get something that suits them.

Thank you for expounding on the problem I described in brevity. That is exactly the frustration I had.

 

[Apple_Robert]

I see. Well this makes more sense, but I still find it a little odd you’re hitting it by accident because even with function keys I never went anywhere near them, nor the number keys unless I needed them.

I guess we all type a little differently though. I do find this problem to be very specific and I don’t think is enough justification to remove it necessarily, but yes a BTO option wouldn’t hurt anyone. Win win.

I would rather not have to pay extra for the Touch Bar feature, if I am not going to use it. The MBA affords me the option and I hope we continue to get the option.

 

[1240766]

Except it doesn’t, I’ve had multiple machines in my business with the TB and I have to deliberately touch it for it to react. If you’re typing normally they way you’re taught in computer class accidental brushing of the TB shouldn’t event be possible.

that is the best... yeah, I guess I don’t type as you were taught on your computer class....... lemme see, I don’t remember ever having a computer typing class... maybe it is a new thing... but I have been coding for over 20 years...guaranteed it is not my typing


BTW, it is not when you are typing that you brush, it is when your fingers are hovering the keyboard when you are reading what you write, coded, etc...

 

[shenfrey]

Quote in bold above is THE BEST description on the negatives of the Touch Bar - Another note, people are able to articulate why the TB is a pita (like the post above) but not so much why TB is a good thing...

That being said - in order to have more battery life and a fan in case your workflow requires you to do very process intensive tasks with lots of disk I/O, you have to take the TB down your throat - lol.... I don't blame Apple, that is their strategy and I respect that. I wish it was different, but it is what it is...Apple has its strategy, I can either take it or leave it.

it's incredibly easy to speak the benefits of a TB, I am not sure why you think people are struggling otherwise.

The beauty of having contextual commands, like screenshots, emojis, PIP all right there in front of us at the tap of a button. Then there is customisation, we can turn the TB into anything we want with the right 3rd party Tools. The TB is also unobtrusive enough, that as long as you are typing like most people and don't have 6 inch long fingers, it never gets in the way.

Resetting your MB due to TB issues are teething problems, ones that will get resolved over time and become more and more reliable. The TB may not be to everyones tastes - for whatever reason - but do not think for a moment that we are unable to articulate the benefits of why it isn't, in your words, a pita.

 

[1240766]

it's incredibly easy to speak the benefits of a TB, I am not sure why you think people are struggling otherwise.

The beauty of having contextual commands, like screenshots, emojis, PIP all right there in front of us at the tap of a button. Then there is customisation, we can turn the TB into anything we want with the right 3rd party Tools. The TB is also unobtrusive enough, that as long as you are typing like most people and don't have 6 inch long fingers, it never gets in the way.

Resetting your MB due to TB issues are teething problems, ones that will get resolved over time and become more and more reliable. The TB may not be to everyones tastes - for whatever reason - but do not think for a moment that we are unable to articulate the benefits of why it isn't, in your words, a pita.

All you have listed there can be done FASTER with shortcut keys and function keys, with muscle memory, without having to stop and look at the touch bar... NEXT?

 

[shenfrey]

All you have listed there can be done FASTER with shortcut keys and function keys, with muscle memory, without having to stop and look at the touch bar... NEXT?

Contextual actions based on the app you are in, can be done with muscle memory and function keys as easily as pressing a single icon on a Touch Bar?

 

[brianmowrey]

There's already a location for contextual commands.

It's called the Entire Actual Keyboard.

That is why the fastest UIs are text based, after a few months of use you memorize interface flows and can enter commands for operations that haven't even appeared on the display yet.

The function bar doesn't need to be contextualized. Provides no benefit at all.

 

[cwwilson]

Judging from this thread, it would appear the holy grail of MacBooks is the 2015 15”. No touchbar, plenty of ports, MagSafe etc...

Theoretically, this model with the new Apple chip inside, upgradable RAM/SSD and somehow full Boot Camp compatibility would be the ultimate laptop no?

I don’t know why so many people here despise the touchbar, I think it’s a pretty cool feature myself and wished mine had one.

 

[brianmowrey]

Theoretically, this model with the new Apple chip inside, upgradable RAM/SSD and somehow full Boot Camp compatibility would be the ultimate laptop no?

Yes (or a 2nd gen chassis with HDMI-out on 13", really) except, SOC can't offer upgradeable memory without walking back all of the energy/heat/superfast-swap advantages of SOC.

OTOH there's no clear obstacle to hybridizing disk storage so that the allegedly "pro" machine's logic board can plug in two or three extra M2 drives that supplement the SOC base - except that everyone who bought an MBP after 2016 demonstrated to Apple that it doesn't need to offer its "pro" consumers expandable internal storage, so we'll never get it back.

 

[cwwilson]

Yes (or a 2nd gen chassis with HDMI-out on 13", really) except, SOC can't offer upgradeable memory without walking back all of the energy/heat/superfast-swap advantages of SOC.

OTOH there's no clear obstacle to hybridizing disk storage so that the allegedly "pro" machine's logic board can plug in two or three extra M2 drives that supplement the SOC base - except that everyone who bought an MBP after 2016 demonstrated to Apple that it doesn't need to offer its "pro" consumers expandable internal storage, so we'll never get it back.

How silly of me, totally forgot the RAM is integrated into the chip itself 😆

But being able to at least swap the SSD if you need would be a nice feature. HDMI is also cool to have, keeps your other ports open for other things.

I’m also really fond of the MagSafe charger and I think it’d be great if Apple brought it back, especially now that the iPhone has it (even if it is not technically the same).

But nowadays USBC is seen as sort of the “do it all” port so Apple will just slap a few of those on there and that allows them to save money and simplify the design.

 

[henkej]

Korg Gadget...with no Touch Bar? No thanks.

 

[Upeo]

But Pro's are in many shapes and sizes so maybe others out there adore it.

This is exactly it. It's really not a matter of being a pro or not being a pro, it really comes down to personal preference and what your workflow looks like. For me, the convenience of having it when I photo/video edit outweighs the inconvenience of not having physical function keys when I program, even though I program more than I edit. I completely understand if it's not the same for somebody else though so having it as an option would really be the ideal solution.

I really don't understand the notion that the things we don't like should not exist. (Not a direct reply to the post I'm quoting but to the tone of the conversation about the Touch Bar in general) I understand that having too big of a lineup can lead to optimisation issues, but it doesn't seem as if that would be a problem in this case. Hopefully they can just let people get the version they want and then use the sales data to conclude whether it's a feature they should keep investing in or not.

 

[canhaz]

I really don't understand the notion that the things we don't like should not exist. (Not a direct reply to the post I'm quoting but to the tone of the conversation about the Touch Bar in general) I understand that having too big of a lineup can lead to optimisation issues, but it doesn't seem as if that would be a problem in this case.

I agree with you in principle, with the caveat that only if it doesnt come at a heavy price. For example if Apple covered a leather case that 10% of users loved but the majority hated. Then sure, go ahead and offer it.

In the case of the touchbar however, it does come at a real cost. We're talking about a sizeable design and structural change. This amplifies an already expensive SKU's by a factor of 2. eg they need 2 sets of chassis designs in all the diff colors. It also makes customers go through more decision making. "Do I need this touchbar thingy or not?","Is it worth the +$299?" etc

 

[Upeo]

I agree with you in principle, with the caveat that only if it doesnt come at a heavy price. For example if Apple covered a leather case that 10% of users loved but the majority hated. Then sure, go ahead and offer it.

In the case of the touchbar however, it does come at a real cost. We're talking about a sizeable design and structural change. This amplifies an already expensive SKU's by a factor of 2. eg they need 2 sets of chassis designs in all the diff colors. It also makes customers go through more decision making. "Do I need this touchbar thingy or not?","Is it worth the +$299?" etc

It's two SKU's that they already offer though so it wouldn't impact their manufacturing much I believe. The only new one they would have to develop would be the 16' with the function keys which is something they are apparently ready to do regardless. If it is an extra cost, I don't mind them passing it on down to us. The Touch Bar is the extra feature, function keys are the default, so if me as a user wants the extra feature, then it makes sense that I would pay more for it, if it is a reasonable amount.

As far as the decision making, I feel like that burden really has to fall on the customer. We're spending thousands of dollars on these machines, understanding which configuration fits us best is really homework we should do. If you haven't used it before, it can be difficult to understand whether it's something you'd enjoy or not, true, but with return policies the way they are these days, we can try it if we're too torn and return it if we can't adjust. If budget is too much of a concern then the decision's made for us.

On their side they'd also have more information to make a decision. If the Touch Bar model sells well, then that takes care of the extra cost of manufacturing them. If it doesn't, then they have concrete data telling them the market doesn't want this. They are in a position as a company where they can take these kinds of risks, I really don't believe there would be too much of a downside for anyone involved, with the caveat that I have no knowledge of how they come to these decisions naturally and don't have access to the data they do.

 

[canhaz]

On their side they'd also have more information to make a decision. If the Touch Bar model sells well, then that takes care of the extra cost of manufacturing them. If it doesn't, then they have concrete data telling them the market doesn't want this. They are in a position as a company where they can take these kinds of risks, I really don't believe there would be too much of a downside for anyone involved, with the caveat that I have no knowledge of how they come to these decisions naturally and don't have access to the data they do.

I've thought about this as well. Apple however tends to not do focus group testing, or empirical approach using sales numbers. I appreciate that and believe it's why they succeed in consumer tech vs Google etc. They are not design by numbers.

An empirical system would never have made an iPhone to begin with. It seems highly unlikely one could get to the iPhone by making, iterative changes to the old smartphones circa 2007 and comparing sales figures. Apple make big bold, untested design changes and they largely pay off.

The touchbar was one of these. Unfortunately, just like the butterfly keyboards it simply was not well received. They don't always hit a home run eg the Newton.

I do understand it sucks if you happen to be in the minority. For example, I actually loved the butterfly keyboards in part because mine was reliable. The travel and firmness of the new butterfly IMHO were a huge improvement. They reduced the twisting and key rotation to almost nothing and reduced travel, which makes for an excellent experience. It makes less accurate typers feel more in control. On a mushy keyboard you need to strike the key closer to the center of the cap.

Fortunately they took some of those innovations and brought them into the new scissor switch designs so it's almost as good in that regard. But I digress 😂

 

[arche3]

New Apple leak says no more touch bar for mbp 16 in 2021.

 

[timbals]

The touch bar is so good that not a single competitor has tried to copy it in 5 years... think that says it all.

I've had several touch bar macbook pro 13's since 2016 and I hate it for all the reasons in the first post. If the Macbook air wasn't so anemic I would have "downgraded" long ago.

The only good thing about it is that it looks cool.

 

[canhaz]

If the Macbook air wasn't so anemic I would have "downgraded" long ago.

That was true up until the Macbook Air M1 got released. That thing seriously kicks butt and puts my 2020 MBP's 13" to shame . If it weren't for the fact I need to run Windows apps occasionally I'd switch in a heartbeat.

 

[timbals]

That was true up until the Macbook Air M1 got released. That thing seriously kicks butt and puts my 2020 MBP's 13" to shame . If it weren't for the fact I need to run Windows apps occasionally I'd switch in a heartbeat.

Yup, unfortunately monitor support is really poor on the M1 macs (fuzzy text and RGB isn't working with a lot of monitors). It's also a shame that the Air's battery life is much shorter than the Pro's

 

[ght56]

It seems very unlikely considering they did not drop it with the first Apple Silicon models. If they intended to drop it, there is no reason they would spend all the time getting ASi to work with it. The rumored 14-inch could just be the 13-inch with a different screen using smaller bezels.