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I agree. The problem with upvotes and downvotes is people make posts to gain upvotes and avoid downvotes. That happens already, but it would happen even more if downvoted posts were hidden and upvoted posts were pushed to the top. Then it would just be one big popularity contest, more so than it already is.
 
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I agree. The problem with upvotes and downvotes is people make posts to gain upvotes and avoid downvotes. That happens already, but it would happen even more if downvoted posts were hidden and upvoted posts were pushed to the top. Then it would just be one big popularity contest, more so than it already is.
I think competition is absolutely stupid and worthless. I think posting something useful/meaningful goes much father than just posting something to post it—to build up a higher post count, etc. Because that's not how it works in the real world. If you say something meaningful, people will listen and you will get responses.
 
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NO, NO, NO!

We don't need more places where "mobs" can effectively eliminate thoughts and ideas via downvotes and boost others to the point where all you can see is what the mob wants you to see.
Okay maybe I’m putting too much trust in this community? I’ve seen it works on others sites. Mods are needed anyhow. The threshold for hiding has to be right.
I agree. The problem with upvotes and downvotes is people make posts to gain upvotes and avoid downvotes. That happens already, but it would happen even more if downvoted posts were hidden and upvoted posts were pushed to the top. Then it would just be one big popularity contest, more so than it already is.
Upvoted can be highlighted, standard sorting can be by date still. The problem I’m seeing is a thread with hundreds of replies, everyone‘s saying the same things but it’s all buried in there. Some order to the chaos could actually have a positive impact on discussions as they can go on for longer and get to the real point. More people can find it and participate.
I think competition is absolutely stupid and worthless. I think posting something useful/meaningful goes much father than just posting something to post it—to build up a higher post count, etc. Because that's not how it works in the real world. If you say something meaningful, people will listen and you will get responses.
It’s hard to have a meaningful discussion in a room full of shouting people.

This all applies to popular news article threads, not other forums BTW. And it may never happen but it’s a mechanism other sites are using to deal with increased negativity.
 
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Interesting thread. I find that a good subset of the regulars here are intelligent and erudite people, who don’t hesitate to write long and detailed posts on areas of their specialised knowledge. That’s certainly one of the things that attracted me to the site, and has encouraged me to stay.

That said, there are a few knuckleheads (who I’ve started putting on ignore) and there is just no point in reading the 10 pages or more of comments on a news article. Life is just too short, and there is too much chaff and argument amongst the good stuff.

I wish there was an “include only these posters” feature — so that you could only see the posts from people you knew and trusted to present a fair and knowledgeable view.
 
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You have made some very good points, @icanhazmac:

To be perfectly candid, I have the very same issue with the "like" button: Sometimes, I use it to register my agreement with what the poster has written, sometimes, I am simply applauding a post that I think is well written, and am choosing to signal that I "like" the post.
The emoji reactions aren’t perfect and there is no “agree” emoji.
Personally, I would like to see an evolution of the "like" button, so that it becomes possible to distinguish between "liking" a post and agreeing with its contents. Of course, a post can also elicit both reactions (and that is what the "love" emoji is for, to my mind).



On this, I am in complete agreement with you.
Like and agree and dislike and disagree. An agree reaction would be nice. I think a dislike reaction is useful, just have a low 24 hour limit on it.
I would like - in an ideal world - to be able to draw a distinction between "laughing with" and "laughing at" - the latter is an ugly enough spectacle - when responding to a post.

And it is an intellectually lazy, disrespectful, style of posting to seek refuge in that "laugh" emoji rather than take the time and trouble to craft an articulate reply to something with which you disagree or wish to mock.
In todays day and age, imo, it’s okay to disagree with a post without a response. Sometimes it’s just better that way.
Unfortunately, the two have become conflated.

If it were possible to have two separate icons to indicate - draw a distinction between - signalling that you "dislike" a post, or registering your disagreement with a post - I think that this might serve to remove some of the negativity, and the negative - occasionally toxic - tone of debate - that inevitably follows the intellectually lazy abuse of these icons, or emojis.
I think there should be a daily limit on all reactions except like and love. Or change the laughing reaction to also show a thumbs up; ie laughing with a thumbs up.
To my mind, it would serve to improve the tone in which discussions and debates are conducted in.



Agree that words are more powerful - sometimes, far more powerful than little red faces or thumbs - but there is a blunt lack of subtlety in those little red faces when they are available to be used that encourages an infantilisation of thought, and, unfortunately, an equal infantilisation of expression in subsequent online exchanges.
Sometimes it’s better an emoji than a response. The reaction sometimes conveys a response far better than a response.
That is what I mean when I write that an etiquette - an agreed set of standards of online behaviour that one ought to abide by - has yet to evolve, or develop, for people who choose to participate in the online space.

The tech revolution is so recent - and so transformative - that we are still working out ways of coping with it.
Lack of written skills are nothing ne, neither are lack of manners.
Appropriate behaviour and conduct online will come - as, for example, the rules of the road developed after the invention of the internal combustion engine and the automobile, in some instances requiring regulation, and - for the most part - they are adhered to - as we learn to deal with the challenges of the online world.
You can’t people to be civil there are no laws covering civility; whether online or in person.
Again, on this, I am in complete agreement with you.

Attack the argument, rather than the person; above all, do not impute - I was about to write "impure" - motives, I shall replace that with "unworthy" motives, to someone, merely because you may disagree, and disagree, at times, vehemently, with what they have written.
Of course I agree, discuss the post…not the poster.
 
A disagree option would be useful. A lot of people would just use it rather than feel the need to start often ratty and pointless discussions about why.
 
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The disagree option does exist, but only on news articles, I think there's a whole thread somewhere about that iirc

I had noticed. No idea why it's limited to news. Not really sure why it would be necessary to hold off certain reactions from the forum. Not like they have any impact on threads other than being visible. But this is a business first so perhaps driving content through replies rather than just clicking reactions is what they want.
 
That is what I mean when I write that an etiquette - an agreed set of standards of online behaviour that one ought to abide by - has yet to evolve, or develop, for people who choose to participate in the online space.

The tech revolution is so recent - and so transformative - that we are still working out ways of coping with it.

Appropriate behaviour and conduct online will come - as, for example, the rules of the road developed after the invention of the internal combustion engine and the automobile, in some instances requiring regulation, and - for the most part - they are adhered to - as we learn to deal with the challenges of the online world.
Plans do or do not work, which is why plans always work. Similarly, appropriate behavior and conduct will or will not come, hence, it will always come.

What I am trying to say is that someone’s inappropriate behavior is how that person behaves appropriately, and vice versa. I say this because everything exist at the same point, though our minds present both sides of the same coin in turn, which deludes man into believing they’re “two” and separate. Duality however is illusory, which doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It means it does exist, but it does not exist in the manner our conditioned minds believes it exist. Inappropriate behavior is minimal appropriate behavior, but nevertheless appropriate behavior, and vice versa, which means appropriate is as inappropriate as inappropriate is, and inappropriate is as appropriate as appropriate is, their difference only being a matter of more or less.

Although I cannot say I never disagree with others or that dealing with others is never a challenge for me, my understanding of the mind presenting me with the illusory dualities of right and wrong, normal and abnormal, appropriate and inappropriate etc. is that life is just diverse and varied, albeit illusory.

Attack the argument, rather than the person;
You seem to overlook that man’s mind is conditioned to make man think that thoughts are life. In fact, he identifies with his thoughts; he thinks he is what he thinks he is. What I understand for a fact however is that both life and man’s true nature are thoughtless.

By dividing the indivisible, our minds present us with a myriad of illusory separations, one of them being the separation between the argument (thought) and the person (thinker). But that separation doesn’t stop men and women who believe thoughts are life not at all from believing they are attacked when their thoughts are attacked. To them you can say as much as you want that you only believe their ideas are stupid, but deep down they will believe that you believe they are stupid.

The fact that people can and do easily think they are attacked by others who in turn think they only attack the person’s argument, doesn’t mean I don’t believe it can be helpful when people are careful not to attack the person but only the argument. The fundamental problem with discussions becoming “toxic” however is not a lack of social or communication skills or evolved etiquettes, but people being unaware of themselves being strongly identified with their thoughts as beliefs.

The separation between argument and person however is real for those who’ve realized their true nature; they will never believe and cannot believe either they’re are attacked when their thoughts are attacked because they understand that thoughts cannot define life or them. Hence, they remain harmonious, come what may.
 
A disagree option would be useful. A lot of people would just use it rather than feel the need to start often ratty and pointless discussions about why.

I think if MR begins allowing "disagree" on forum posts, the reaction should not be counted as a -1 to reduce its use by trolls and rank-strivers.
 
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Communities have all gone down. I think it's the significant rise of social media the last 10-15 years or so. I remember back in 2005-2010 online communities were always very helpful. Now you can't even ask a question these days without ONE person chiming in and saying you are an idiot or something along those lines. Let alone if a topic is very opinionated. People just HATE HATE HATE difference of opinion these days. It's even impacting in-person where people just want to shout and argue and not debate or have HEALTHY arguments anymore. Its MY WAY or the HIGHWAY attitude I see all the time now.

I don't care how different my opinion is with someone, but the minute you insult or talk down to me that is when I do the same to you.

"Treat others how you want to be treated" seems to be ignored by A LOT of people in today's world. Online and offline.
 
I think if MR begins allowing "disagree" on forum posts, the reaction should not be counted as a -1 to reduce its use by trolls and rank-strivers.

I don't think it should be counted as anything but an opinion. Treating it as a -1 reduces its legitimate use. I am sure there are plenty of trolls and rank-strivers but I doubt it's a high % of users. Maybe not, I don't know.
 
I don't think it should be counted as anything but an opinion. Treating it as a -1 reduces its legitimate use. I am sure there are plenty of trolls and rank-strivers but I doubt it's a high % of users. Maybe not, I don't know.
I mean, it is against the forum rules to post stuff just to accumulate a higher post count/rank, but like you say, trolls and spammers do exist, so anything could happen.

I wonder if this is just how forum software works compared to instant messaging—"downvoting" a post, at least on XenForo, results in a -1, so you lose your "reaction score." This isn't limited to MacRumors, I think it's just how the forum software works. I know this from being on other forum sites that use the same backend.
 
I think if MR began allowing "disagree" on forum posts, the reaction should not be counted as a -1 to reduce its use by trolls and rank-strivers.
This is the biggest problem I have with downvoting. I've seen it used as retaliation. Granted, just happened to me once but it was enough for me not to like it. lol. So I never use it.

I would like a thoughtful response option and a disagree response option that doesn't harm the other user and invite retaliation.


I mean, it is against the forum rules to post stuff just to accumulate a higher post count/rank, but like you say, trolls and spammers do exist, so anything could happen.

I wonder if this is just how forum software works compared to instant messaging—"downvoting" a post, at least on XenForo, results in a -1, so you lose your "reaction score." This isn't limited to MacRumors, I think it's just how the forum software works. I know this from being on other forum sites that use the same backend.

It is? I never knew that!

Look at that. https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201265337-Forum-Rules

"Overposting. Making the same post many times, making multiple pointless posts in the same thread, making numerous posts with no real content, or posting for the purpose of gaining a higher post count."

Learned something new.
 
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I wonder if this is just how forum software works compared to instant messaging—"downvoting" a post, at least on XenForo, results in a -1, so you lose your "reaction score." This isn't limited to MacRumors, I think it's just how the forum software works. I know this from being on other forum sites that use the same backend.

I had no idea it did that, to be honest. Fair enough then, if that is how it works.
 
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I wonder if this is just how forum software works compared to instant messaging—"downvoting" a post, at least on XenForo, results in a -1, so you lose your "reaction score."

So a couple of things.

The -1 means nothing because the reaction score means nothing, unless it does to you personally for some strange reason.

The flip side of that is all the trolls that use the laughing emoji as "laughing at you" are actually giving you a +1 to your meaningless reaction score.

/shrug

Maybe we should get rid of the reaction score instead of the emoji reactions. This might cut down on +1 farming posts and -1 troll retaliations.
 
So a couple of things.

The -1 means nothing because the reaction score means nothing, unless it does to you personally for some strange reason.

The flip side of that is all the trolls that use the laughing emoji as "laughing at you" are actually giving you a +1 to your meaningless reaction score.

/shrug

Maybe we should get rid of the reaction score instead of the emoji reactions. This might cut down on +1 farming posts and -1 troll retaliations.
While the reaction score means nothing to me, I know it does for others based on their actions / reactions. I like giving thumbs up to people I agree with to show my support and let them know I read their post.

Read something recently about how those likes are a huge factor in the addiction of social media. I see it here, but not to the extent that I did on FB or IG back in the day when I did use them (2016).
 
Read something recently about how those likes are a huge factor in the addiction of social media.

Agreed and this is part of my desire to see the reaction score go away. MR would be a better place if not for the "reaction farm" accounts that create vague, vanilla, positive posts in every single thread.
 
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Agreed and this is part of my desire to see the reaction score go away. MR would be a better place if not for the "reaction farm" accounts that create vague vanilla positive posts in every single thread.
Just in the spirit of agreeing with that post, I won't like your post! :p Because I agree. There is a freedom about not having a total of those likes there, despite their dopamine hits. I would vote to remove it if given the option. But it probably would go against making Macrumors $ and I'm sure more than a few members would be sad/upset about it. lol.

I imagine the number of attention gathering/reaction posts in the news threads would be severely reduced.
 
I don't care how different my opinion is with someone, but the minute you insult or talk down to me that is when I do the same to you.

"Treat others how you want to be treated" seems to be ignored by A LOT of people in today's world. Online and offline.
Assuming you don’t want others to insult or talk down to you, I don’t think you treat others how you want to be treated if you insult or talk down to others the minute they insult and talk down to you.
 
Would love to see a poll hosted by the mods with regards to removing reactions. Though I suspect the final vote would lead to things remaining as they are, given how many people are used to this being 'baked into the cake' of forum sites now, not to mention those that would lament their reaction score vanishing. Want to see it in numbers, in any event.

Personally, I detest them. The dislike button in particular leads me to wonder why someone disagrees, and frustrates me when they don't actually follow up with why. Like just now, I received a down vote on a post that I cannot explain, because the post is barely even an opinion, just musings. Without a reply, it's thoroughly useless. I want to HEAR why. That's what this place is for, is it not? Same with likes, really.

Indeed it is very obvious that there are people here that are posting to inflate their numbers, most evident in news threads.

Edit: Perhaps a different idea would be to simply remove the reaction score but keep the reactions. I'm not a fan of this option but it allows for acknowledgement of a post without a written response, but negates farming. Have seen some other sites do this.
 
Assuming you don’t want others to insult or talk down to you, I don’t think you treat others how you want to be treated if you insult or talk down to others the minute they insult and talk down to you.
Well I’m treating others how THEY want to be treated. I’m in my 40s. All my life I have just took it. But I’m no longer going to let people just walk all over me anymore. I’m not the one insulting. But if you go around insulting me I’m not going to be nice anymore.
 
Who'd thought there'd be negativity in MR after the demise of the PSRI sub-forum?

Anyway, I suppose I can't say much given that a post I made about a recent news item was removed (it was indeed snarky in retrospect, but I genuinely meant it in jest and it seemed like a good idea at the time. 😇). I do not think the problem is MR or how it handles user forums. In this regard I think the format is excellent and that the moderation is usually reasonable.

No, I think the problem that is invoking negativity is Apple itself. Most people here have invested a great deal of time and money in the Apple ecosystem, so a have a vested interest in the ecosystem's health. Many are frustrated with Apple's priorities and increasingly spotty record of quality control. IMO Apple has been focusing on image rather than fundamentals. So soon we'll have an Apple AR headset that will appeal to a small minority, at least at first. Meanwhile, there is still no macOS setting or Finder setting that defaults Finder windows to displaying full file names (a Spring Break intern could do this). We have thin iPhones, but the batteries rarely last a full day and replacing batteries is a PITA. iTunes was amazing when it came out, but it still has bugs and a clunky interface. Those are just a few examples, but the list of requests by customers for Apple to rectify perceived shortcomings in its products is long and growing. I say this as an Apple fan who has stuck with the Apple ecosystem since 1986.
 
Well I’m treating others how THEY want to be treated.
How sure are you that is what they want? Nobody wants to be robbed, not even those who steal. Similarly, nobody wants to be walked all over by others, not even those who walk all over others.

It can be a good thing to stand up for yourself when somebody is overbearing and inconsiderate. Which indeed can also happen online, not just offline. A point to consider, as far as I am concerned, is that we reap what we sow. This can be difficult to understand or accept, because how can that statement be true if, for example, one of two friends is consistently considerate to the other who in turn is consistently inconsiderate to his or her considerate friend? Does that prove that the statement is not true? No, I don’t think it does. The statement is true, we just cannot know how and when we will reap. So, I’d say, not as an advice but only as an understanding, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth only strengthens problematic contacts or relationships, it never solves anything. By reacting according to the way in which you’re being walked all over, you’re being walked all over by the other who’s still determining what you say and do. If you want to be liberated from overbearing and inconsiderate people, then turn the other cheek; treat them how you want to be treated; be considerate.
 
How sure are you that is what they want? Nobody wants to be robbed, not even those who steal. Similarly, nobody wants to be walked all over by others, not even those who walk all over others.

It can be a good thing to stand up for yourself when somebody is overbearing and inconsiderate. Which indeed can also happen online, not just offline. A point to consider, as far as I am concerned, is that we reap what we sow. This can be difficult to understand or accept, because how can that statement be true if, for example, one of two friends is consistently considerate to the other who in turn is consistently inconsiderate to his or her considerate friend? Does that prove that the statement is not true? No, I don’t think it does. The statement is true, we just cannot know how and when we will reap. So, I’d say, not as an advice but only as an understanding, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth only strengthens problematic contacts or relationships, it never solves anything. By reacting according to the way in which you’re being walked all over, you’re being walked all over by the other who’s still determining what you say and do. If you want to be liberated from overbearing and inconsiderate people, then turn the other cheek; treat them how you want to be treated; be considerate.
Uh maybe because I ask nicely in the conversation to stop insulting me or speaking down to me or verbally harassing me. But they don’t care.

So it’s just all on me huh? If I’m insulted or get harassed. Just ignore and continue to be a beating stick to someone. It goes both ways. Not sure why people are nitpicking this detail. If you insult me or my family I will NOT be nice. I don’t know why that is so controversial. In fact it has strained my relationships in the past where I didn’t stand up for someone.
 
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