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apollo1444

macrumors 65816
Jul 22, 2011
1,329
27
mexico
I didn't know that Apple has sued Google and has won the trials. Can you please link to those results?

where the hell did I say they already sued Google? why would their CEO's contact each other? Tim and Larry is that because Google are some kind of saint nerds who came to save the day?

both companies know what they steal from each other... but I'm willing to bet Google is violating more patents than Apple
 

apollo1444

macrumors 65816
Jul 22, 2011
1,329
27
mexico
Having to tip-toe around other company's patents instead of doing what you want really does not result in better products.

I really don't understand how you think patents result in better products for consumers.


I'm pretty sure companies whether you like it or not should protect their IP's maybe Apple has copied in the past which is fine by the way, I don't think XEROX would have invested money on PC's and I don't think Sony would have invested money on turning a harddrive into a walkman...

how much money do you think Apple invested in developing the original iPhone? ...money you can't even count and to think a company can just invest half of it copying your concept that must feel like crap,

I believe securing patents force companies to compete better by investing money in investigation and innovation the result of that are more alternatives for consumers and even better products, look what Microsoft did they invested millions into their new concept of metro for their windows 7/8 phones without copying android or apple and the result? people are having trouble getting used to their concept but the OS is solid, more fluid than android and great reviews, sales are low but have just started gaining momentum, RIM is doing the same with blackberryX

whether they are better or not that's just personal preference, to me more alternatives for consumers = better

so I don't understand how you think copying result in better products for consumers
 

Purant

macrumors 6502
Aug 26, 2012
305
0
I'm pretty sure companies whether you like it or not should protect their IP's maybe Apple has copied in the past which is fine by the way,

So if it's fine, then everyone suing everyone is also fine, eh? Including Apple getting sued of course

how much money do you think Apple invested in developing the original iPhone?

I could Google that, but I'm bored, why don't you tell me?

...money you can't even count

I don't know, I can count pretty high up.

and to think a company can just invest half of it copying your concept that must feel like crap,

Yeah, and we don't want COMPANIES to "feel like crap" right? All this patent system is not about money and control, it's about ... "feelings".

I believe securing patents force companies to compete better by investing money in investigation and innovation the result of that are more alternatives for consumers and even better products

No. Patents were supposed to be a way to publicize an idea and at the same time having a record that it was yours, so that people could attribute you, but they could take it and improve it. Somehow it has devolved into "DON'T TAKE THIS, IT'S MINE, NAH-NAh-nah-nah-Nah!"

, look what Microsoft did they invested millions into their new concept of metro for their windows 7/8 phones without copying android or apple and the result?

It aslo helps that microsoft can't design a proper GUI even if their life depended on it
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
where the hell did I say they already sued Google? why would their CEO's contact each other? Tim and Larry is that because Google are some kind of saint nerds who came to save the day?

both companies know what they steal from each other... but I'm willing to bet Google is violating more patents than Apple

Ah, your "by the balls" was only hyperbole and wishful thinking
 

Purant

macrumors 6502
Aug 26, 2012
305
0
So, in regards to the patent discussion.

Let's say Samsung discovers that if you sprinkle a phone with pixie dust it becomes indestructible. Then patents "indestructible phone" and asks 1000$ per phone to license it to competitors. Now, no-one else can have indestructible phones, and you are stuck with your iphone breaking to a million pieces when you drop it. How is THAT good for consumers?
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
So, in regards to the patent discussion.

Let's say Samsung discovers that if you sprinkle a phone with pixie dust it becomes indestructible. Then patents "indestructible phone" and asks 1000$ per phone to license it to competitors. Now, no-one else can have indestructible phones, and you are stuck with your iphone breaking to a million pieces when you drop it. How is THAT good for consumers?

No, They can only patent "indestructible phones sprinkled with pixie dust in that way"
 

apollo1444

macrumors 65816
Jul 22, 2011
1,329
27
mexico
So if it's fine, then everyone suing everyone is also fine, eh? Including Apple getting sued of course



I could Google that, but I'm bored, why don't you tell me?



I don't know, I can count pretty high up.



Yeah, and we don't want COMPANIES to "feel like crap" right? All this patent system is not about money and control, it's about ... "feelings".



No. Patents were supposed to be a way to publicize an idea and at the same time having a record that it was yours, so that people could attribute you, but they could take it and improve it. Somehow it has devolved into "DON'T TAKE THIS, IT'S MINE, NAH-NAh-nah-nah-Nah!"



It aslo helps that microsoft can't design a proper GUI even if their life depended on it

if you don't like Ms take on a multitouch smartphone that's fine many people are starting to notice them and care. Blackberry are following their steps with their own take I'm sure they would add something to the mix. At the end of the day for it actually proves my point, innovating and not copying results in more alternatives for consumers which is yeah better

I didn't bother with the rest you typed lot of moronic ideas hahaha
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,762
10,890
Here is the patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20090249247

If you actually go ahead and read it, you'll notice that Apple's implementation doesn't actually infringe on the patent. The primary claim of the patent is based on displaying notifications in the status bar and displaying the notification details/summary in response to selections of those notifications in the status bar. Neither of which iOS does.
 

apollo1444

macrumors 65816
Jul 22, 2011
1,329
27
mexico
Funny because Apple give Safari for free. Google chrome is free as well. So what a damage on Google side. I don't see Money flowing around these two web browsers directly.

Didn't Apple actually made Chrome possible with Webkit? lol what have Google actually developed other than their search engine?
 

blackhand1001

macrumors 68030
Jan 6, 2009
2,599
33
Here is the patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20090249247

If you actually go ahead and read it, you'll notice that Apple's implementation doesn't actually infringe on the patent. The primary claim of the patent is based on displaying notifications in the status bar and displaying the notification details/summary in response to selections of those notifications in the status bar. Neither of which iOS does.

Googles slide to unlock is different enough also but Apple thinks it infringes. Same with universal search. Patenting vague ideas and not the implementation is a disaster for the industry and a bad precedent set by the Apple vs. Samsung case. Software patents themselves are bad. They hinder competition. Google had to right all the code themselves to that universal search. They didn't copy that code from Apple. Not to mention android had the functionality before iOS. The whole things is a mess and Apple knows they aren't suing because google copied. They are suing to delay the competition. They know they need to play major catch up. The only reason Google and Samsung are counter-suing is to get leverage on apple so they will stop the suits and have reasonable cross licensing agreements. 40 dollars per device is not reasonable. Its completely outrageous. Apple only made that offer so they legally could say they tried to license it. They knew 100% no reasonable company would take that offer.
 

apollo1444

macrumors 65816
Jul 22, 2011
1,329
27
mexico
So, in regards to the patent discussion.

Let's say Samsung discovers that if you sprinkle a phone with pixie dust it becomes indestructible. Then patents "indestructible phone" and asks 1000$ per phone to license it to competitors. Now, no-one else can have indestructible phones, and you are stuck with your iphone breaking to a million pieces when you drop it. How is THAT good for consumers?

Let's say company HTC invests money hires great engineers and finds a way to make an indestructible HTC phone using a different approach but equally indestructible... that's amazing for technology and consumers two different companies developped something great which is now sufficient and maybe they can license their patents for a righteous fee.

have you seen what windows phone looks like? or blackberry x? innovating benefits consumers, it gives them more alternatives and that makes it better

BTW your example is kind of broken knowing Samsung are proven-famous copycats perhaphs you should've used Sony or Nokia as true developers and discoverers
 

thejadedmonkey

macrumors G3
May 28, 2005
9,183
3,343
Pennsylvania
Didn't Apple actually made Chrome possible with Webkit? lol what have Google actually developed other than their search engine?

Yeah, however WebKit was made possible by a fork of KHTML from KDE. Nevermind that Apple was forced to release WebKit as open source due to its forking from KDE.
 

Purant

macrumors 6502
Aug 26, 2012
305
0
Didn't Apple actually made Chrome possible with Webkit? lol what have Google actually developed other than their search engine?

And you continue to spout nonsense without bothering to check your facts.

Webkit is a fork of KHTML. KHTML wasn't made by apple, it was developed by KDE, for a long time before Apple took an interest in it. Apple wanted to do some changes, so they made a fork. The fork called WebKit was eventually opensourced and has since been developed by KDE, Google, Apple, Nokia, Rim, Samsung and a ton of other people.

So.... Whatever.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,762
10,890
Googles slide to unlock is different enough also but Apple thinks it infringes.

Different enough than what? How Apple implemented the patent in iOS has nothing to do with the validity of the patent. Several cases have invalidated Apple's slide to unlock patent based on prior art and obviousness. Not lack of infringement as you imply.

Same with universal search. Patenting vague ideas and not the implementation is a disaster for the industry and a bad precedent set by the Apple vs. Samsung case. Software patents themselves are bad. They hinder competition. Google had to right all the code themselves to that universal search. They didn't copy that code from Apple. Not to mention android had the functionality before iOS. The whole things is a mess and Apple knows they aren't suing because google copied. They are suing to delay the competition. They know they need to play major catch up. The only reason Google and Samsung are counter-suing is to get leverage on apple so they will stop the suits and have reasonable cross licensing agreements. 40 dollars per device is not reasonable. Its completely outrageous. Apple only made that offer so they legally could say they tried to license it. They knew 100% no reasonable company would take that offer.

That's all just a vague rant there. Yes, the patent system needs a lot of improvement. Can we get back to the specific patent we were discussing?
 

Purant

macrumors 6502
Aug 26, 2012
305
0
Let's say company HTC invests money hires great engineers and finds a way to make an indestructible HTC phone using a different approach but equally indestructible... that's amazing for technology and consumers two different companies developped something great which is now sufficient and maybe they can license their patents for a righteous fee.

The problem, and the point I am trying to make, which is up for discussion, is that software patents are often so ridiculous that you can patent "indestructible phone", meaning the basic idea, and not the specific implementation.

That's why Apple is getting sued for iMessage, Siri, Location services and a ton of other things.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,762
10,890
The problem, and the point I am trying to make, which is up for discussion, is that software patents are often so ridiculous that you can patent "indestructible phone", meaning the basic idea, and not the specific implementation.

No, you can't. Arguments like this come from only reading the title of a patent instead of the actual claims.
 

Purant

macrumors 6502
Aug 26, 2012
305
0
No, you can't. Arguments like this come from only reading the title of a patent instead of the actual claims.

Wasn't amazon's 1 click buying patent, a patent of an idea and not of a specific implementation?
 

apollo1444

macrumors 65816
Jul 22, 2011
1,329
27
mexico
And you continue to spout nonsense without bothering to check your facts.

Webkit is a fork of KHTML. KHTML wasn't made by apple, it was developed by KDE, for a long time before Apple took an interest in it. Apple wanted to do some changes, so they made a fork. The fork called WebKit was eventually opensourced and has since been developed by KDE, Google, Apple, Nokia, Rim, Samsung and a ton of other people.

So.... Whatever.

it doesn't matter how webkit came to be apple released webkit, so yeah if it wasn't for webkit we wouldn't have chrome

I don't know if Apple bought KDE, your posts does make it sound like it, its valid to buy companies that make great stuff and make them your own, its called investment.
 

Purant

macrumors 6502
Aug 26, 2012
305
0
They can patent specific ideas, Apple didn't patented slide to unlock, they patented slide to unlock made in an specific wat

I guess the diference here is that for me, what makes it specific is the code itself. So as long as someone doesn't copy paste code directly, they shouldn't infringe any patents. I realize that this might be a bit extreme and black and white and there is a lot of gray in-between, but really I sometimes find it really hard to see where a patent stops being a "general idea" and becomes something specific enough that they should be patentable.

For me even slide to unlock is just borderline patentable.

From what I read from the patent it says

"2. The method of claim 1, wherein the moving comprises movement along any desired path.

3. The method of claim 1, wherein the moving comprises movement along a predefined channel from the first predefined location to the predefined unlock region."

Those two seem too general for me. From my understanding, you could require the user to draw an 8 shape to unlock ("any desired path") and still be infringing.

Now, the rest of the claims make it easy to design around, for example:

"5. The method of claim 4, wherein the visual cues comprise text.

6. The method of claim 4, wherein said visual cues comprise an arrow indicating a general direction of movement. "

Just don't have text, or don't have an arrow. But having to design around something when you want to do something fundamentally different (draw an 8 shape to unlock), seems like a problem.

(Disclaimer: I'm exaggerating a bit, but I'm trying to make a point)
 

Purant

macrumors 6502
Aug 26, 2012
305
0

I'm a bit tired now to write a lengthy post, but from what I read from the patent (admittedly I just skimmed it), it doesn't seem specific enough.

It seems to describe having a client and a server and the client being already logged in and clicking once to buy something, while some client info is being displayed (obviously I'm oversimplifying things).

Barnes and Noble couldn't design around that in any other way than adding a second click to purchase.

That for me seems like the patent of an "idea".
 
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