What is going on with the G5?

[Kethoticus]

Joey, I think the problem...

... is this. You wrote: "A different core? Hardly. I doubt Motorola's going to design an entire new "core" (note the vagueness of the term), particularly if your conclusion was reached on the basis of marketing speak (their press release was for the benefit of their customers, i.e. largely the embedded market, they
want to hear that the 8540 is specifically "designed for the embedded market" whether or not that particular book E implementation goes down well in desktops or not.) Remember that the same second-generation G4 core in the 7450 core serves both cisco and Apple, so I can't see why Moto can't pull the same stunt with the G5 core."

When we only see them advertising their networking capabilities, we wonder why it is they're not also bragging about their desktop capabilities. An NDA with Apple? I dunno. They could at least mention the word "desktop", but we don't see that anywhere. If they're writing the above for the benefit of their networking customers, they should also write a piece devoted to their desktop customers--that is, if it was ready. But it doesn't sound like it is.

 

[dantec]

How do you do that green winking/smiley face?

 

[joey j]

Re: Joey, I think the problem...

Kethoticus> you assume a lot

Only when I can justify it, see page 1 and any supplementary posts.



> What I'm reading here is a lot of expectation

The fact that I can make a good case for the G5's release in January does
not necessarily mean that I expect Apple to release it in January (while I
can see why how one would _appear_ to follow another, it is purely
superficial and any causal relationship inferred between the two is a non
sequitur).

In fact I'm not too hopeful myself, but I figured I could make myself snap
out of it if I made a convincing case for the 85xx to be released ~jan/feb
(it's sort-of working... deep seated doubt is still there. that'll be a
bitch to shift.)

(there's the truth. happy? )



>When we only see them advertising their networking capabilities, we
wonder why it is they're not also bragging about their desktop capabilities.

Could this be because the 8540 is aimed at the embedded market?
(rhetorical question). Remember that the literature so far is all about
the 8540, the processor, not the core. if the 8540 is (again, the 8540,
not "the book E compliant fifth-generation core in general) not intended
at the desktop market, its literature won't talk about non-existent
desktop applications.

In any case Motorola should be extending Apple the courtesy of announcing
products, as one of Moto's UK reps (paul clark?) said in an interview with
Macworld UK (dig around at http://www.macworld.co.uk).



> An NDA with Apple? I dunno.

NDA as part of a purchasing contract (remember that Apple never releases
info on products before launch)? Possible; in the Macworld UK interview
with the Moto rep, he said that Moto extended Apple the courtesy of
announcing their products; announcing the desktop G5 is tantamount to
announcing Apple's G5 desktop. However I doubt an NDA would be in place as
the 85xx series processor that Apple would employ would be similar to the
8540 (the clause would effectively censor Moto from talking about all book
E cored processors.) If an NDA is in place, it would probably relate not
to the processor or core themselves, but to any possible applications in
desktop products. Of course the most likely probability is the fact that
the 8540 isn't a desktop processor and hence any promotional or
informational literature released for it won't mention desktop capabilities.



> They could at least mention the word "desktop",

(the 8540's not a desktop processor)

As i pointed out just above, the implication then would be Apple is going
to ship G5 pro desktops. In any case, the 8540 _is_ a networking
processor, NOT a desktop processor. Hence it is targeted at the networking
market. Hence promotional literature and press releases are going to be
oriented toward the networking market. Given that it's easy to see
precisely WHY the 8540 press release didn't mention its desktop capabilities.



> but we don't see that anywhere.

... because the 8540 isn't a desktop processor.



> If they're writing the above for the benefit of their networking
customers, they should also write a piece devoted to their desktop
customers

8540 != desktop processor. Hence there's not going to be anything about
desktop applications. In any case, Moto doesn't have ANY desktop customers
(worth anything) apart from Apple. Announcing a desktop 8500 (which
wasn't the point of the 8540 press release in any case) is tantamount to
stealing Apple's thunder (ref Radeon incident.)


>that is, if it was ready. But it doesn't sound like it is.

... your turn.

 

[rickag]

I agree, the reference to the e500 core being designed for the embedded market is specifically referring to the MPC8450(an embedded chip).

joey j
"A different core? Hardly."
"8540 != desktop processor. Hence there's not going to be anything about desktop applications."

But the title to the PDF document is "PowerPC Microprocessors Today and Tomorrow" by Brian Wilkie, Corporate VP and General Manager Computing Platform Division.

If you go to page 10 of the PDF document, in the description of the e500 core(not the MPC8450) it states the e500 core is:
-Motorola's first Power PC Book E Architecture implementation of the G5 products.(please note the word first)
-Configurable to meet market-specific needs

so your right, not a completely new core, but most probably a reconfigured core to meet desktop needs.

Rapid I/O, I don't know, but that is what is listed on the roadmap, and that is what the MPC8450 has developed for this series.
Ssoooo, by following this reasoning, if the G5 for desktops is to implement Hypertransport, my guess this would even further delay the introduction of a G5 for desktops. Also, it would no longer fit Motorola's roadmap. Maybe the future chip for Apple's desktops is not on any roadmap at all??

And again, I hope I'm wrong and the G5 is introduced in Jan. @ MWSF. I will be buying in Jan. regardless and would be extremely happy if the low end tower contains the G4 Apollo(0.13µ & SOI) @ 933 MHz w/ DDRsdram and 1Mb backside cache, Geforce graphics card. However, if past history is an indicator the low end tower won't have backside cache and may be stuck w/ left over motherboards @ 133MHz bus.(note: I'd stll be happy)
I would be absolutely delighted w/ a G5, but really think it won't appear until 3rd-4th quarter 2002.



.

 

[joey j]

>But the title to the PDF document is "PowerPC Microprocessors Today and
Tomorrow" by Brian Wilkie, Corporate VP and General Manager Computing
Platform Division.

(are they going to talk about processors intended for Apple's consumption
only? as i asserted earlier, announcing the desktop 85xx is tantamount to
announcing the G5 powermac, and we do remember the Radeon fiasco...).

A more relevant observation is `which processors/cores do they go into
detail about'? They talk about the e500, and most of the points they make
aren't particularly specific to any application, it appears to me as a
32-bit G5 core with networking-specific extensions. Given the delay in
8540 sampling, and that cores of processors would be worked on first (an
assumption, but i can't see why not), I conclude that the delay would
probably be the DSP-like design and all the extra cruft that Apple doesn't
need (hence my conclusion that the processor is, to Apple, finished).

(Or perhaps the delay to the 8540 is due to limited capacity -- Moto will
be too busy cranking out 8500s for Apple? )

Also, the document is somewhat dated -- i can't remember precisely where,
but they speak in the future tense of past events (if i remember i will
post the specific example(s) here). Also observe that the 7440 was meant
to be in production in "December 2001".



>If you go to page 10 of the PDF document, in the description of the e500
core(not the MPC8450) it states the e500 core is:
-Motorola's first Power PC Book E Architecture implementation of the
G5 products.(please note the word first)
-Configurable to meet market-specific needs

Again, bear in mind that most of the dot points on pg 10 were generic and
applicable to Apple also.



>so your right, not a completely new core, but most probably a reconfigured
core to meet desktop needs.

True, reconfigurations of the core could include altivec rather than the
new dsp-like functionality which seems to be included, or 64-bit
addressing (although I doubt 64-bit addressing would be a high priority
for a product intended for shipping at some point next year; 2002 maybe).



>Rapid I/O, I don't know, but that is what is listed on the roadmap, and
that is what the MPC8450

... 8540. (it is 85xx is it not?)



> has developed for this series. Ssoooo, by following this reasoning, if
the G5 for desktops is to implement Hypertransport, my guess this would
even further delay the introduction of a G5 for desktops.

Hasn't nVidia already implemented HT in nForce? (maybe it's a partial
implementation and requires serious work to bring up to Apple's required
spec). Apple's on the committee, so surely if they were going to use HT
they'd have known about it long enough by now (and hence would be
designing G5 prototypes w/HT, or perhaps certain elements of HT grafted
on to MPX or 60x, in a pinch).



> Also, it would no longer fit Motorola's roadmap. Maybe the future chip
for Apple's desktops is not on any roadmap at all??

Must it fit Moto's roadmap? Apple's always had at least a hand in the PPC
effort, from its inception even, and hence probably had employees working
on it, and they're probably more vigilant now given the fabrication crisis
(farce) of the past two years. So Apple may indeed not be sticking to
Moto's roadmap -- in any case Moto's never made clear if their PPC roadmap
is just Moto's production roadmap or _the_ production roadmap for Moto and
partners (i.e. Moto and Apple -- IBM seems independent enough).



>And again, I hope I'm wrong and the G5 is introduced in Jan. @ MWSF. I
will be buying in Jan. regardless and would be extremely happy if the low
end tower contains the G4 Apollo(0.13µ & SOI) @ 933 MHz w/ DDRsdram and
1Mb backside cache, Geforce graphics card. However, if past history is an
indicator the low end tower won't have backside cache and may be stuck w/
left over motherboards @ 133MHz bus.(note: I'd stll be happy) I would be
absolutely delighted w/ a G5, but really think it won't appear until
3rd-4th quarter 2002.

I've been stuck with that feeling too, and I can't snap out of it, or do
anything apart from make a case for the G5 to console myself . We're
resigned to what we get. Enjoy your new powermac (lots) upon receipt, and
remember always the pessimist's creed: Either you're proven right or
pleasantly surprised

 

[dantec]

Can't anyone just tell me how to do that green smiley face that Joey j does???

 

[joey j]

Originally posted by dantec
Can't anyone just tell me how to do that green smiley face that Joey j does???

what, like this?

semicolon ;
close parenthesis )

 

[Kethoticus]

JoeyJ wrote...

"your turn."

Nah... I grow weary of this debate. I expect (yes, I EXPECT) Apollos at the least this Jan. So no matter how you slice it, I think we're in for a good MWExpo this time around. LCD iMacs may be a bit more unrealistic, I think, but not impossible.

That's it. That's my word on this. No more "non-sequitors" Mr. J.

 

[Raptor]

What is going on with the G5?

(1) With respect to possible hardware introductions at MacWord San Francisco next January, given the slump in computer sales generally, is it not likely that Steve Jobs will wish to stimulate demand for Apple by offering significantly more attractive products as early as possible in 2002?

(2) The present G4s are very fast. Acccordingly, rather than providing higher and higher clock speeds to meet practical needs --such as manipulting images and editing video--is the speed race related more to meeting owners' desires for bragging rights, and creating sales appeal to relatively inexperienced shoppers?

(3) What would be the likely differences in CPUs using a new-spec G4 chip or a G5?

(4) The Cinema Display has great appeal and practicality. Would demand for it--and the appeal of Apple in general--increase greatly with a significantly lower price for that display?

(5) What is the liklihood of an even better video card being supplied in the top CPU to appeal to game and flight-simulator fans?

(6) Is it likely that a Superdrive will be supplied with even the base G4 (or G5) model?

(7) If that happens, what apart from clock speed will be done to differentiate the three CPU models?

(8) Could faster G4s become the base and mid models, with the G5 designation reserved for the top model--at least for 2002?

 

[DannyZR2]

posting

can we stop with the badly formatted quoting?

how about just writing your opinion and not

>answering

>everything

>with

>these

>STUPID

>Promts!


it's just easier to read, that's all. stop rewriting everything that has already been posted.. that's why it's still there, so we can all read it, then read what you have to say...

 

[DannyZR2]

G5 appeal

I think the appeal, raptor, of having the G5 is simply having 64 bit processing.. (backward compatible of course) versus 32 bit of every other desktop processor out today...

 

[joey j]

Re: posting

dannyzr2>can we stop with the badly formatted quoting?

I hardly count `>' as badly formatted quoting. The others who use it would
agree with me.

(I would gladly use a superior alternative. Do you have one?)


>how about just writing your opinion and not

I'm answering _to_ people; so i let the readers know what they wrote and
what I'm writing.


>answering

>everything

>with

>these

>STUPID

>Promts!



>it's just easier to read,

One single angle bracket causes you so much grief?


> that's all.

If your grievance is so insignificant, why then did you complain in the
first place?


> stop rewriting everything that has already been posted..

... people have to see specifically what i'm replying to without having to
scroll up and down constantly. What's needed is a _threaded_ BB system.
Perhaps you should waste your energy (the admins here don't care -- but
you can still try if you want) complaining about the absense of threads.

 

[Kela]

as i said

like i said earlier....the new generation (i.e post August)
of macposters are all freaks.

I even have to admit that the I miss John123 and his supporters.

 

[jefhatfield]

it's been the same here since the beginning...

...as well as on other mac related forums

for some reason, the mac-based forums i have seen since 1998 have been a lot more unfriendly and prone to insulting than any of the pc forums i have belonged to

maybe this is just a coincidence, but i think the freaky nature of the post august posters is not that much different than the pre-august posters or that of the posters i have seen now for three and a half years since i have been surfing chatroom type forums on the mac side (there just are different players in the postings as macrumors gains new people and loses old people, or the old people re-up with different names)

this may be a big generalization, but the mac side of the IT field has been more of a touchy feely, artistic, subjective experience where as the pc forums side seems to be more objective and analytical (or "cold" if you want to characterize that side negatively)

i have to admit, i have enjoyed some the the discussions between you, spikey, and john123 and that has been the most dominant discussion group i have seen yet, but i cannot speak for the very first few months of macrumors since i wasn't there

i too miss john123 but he will be back because anyone with 250+ posts doesn't just jump ship from what i have seen but take vacations from macrumors from time to time

 

[DannyZR2]

hey kela, haven't seen you round in a while..

sorry you throw me in with the newbies.. i certainly see what you mean with some of these around here.

guess i feel like i've been around longer reading posts, but not registering...

 

[spikey]

I dont mind this new breed of poster, they are quite easy to debate with. They just say something slightly intelligent and then repeat it f*** knows how many times, even though you won the debate.

I just cant keep up with the amount of active threads on macrumors. Thats why i think i will retire soon.

 

[jefhatfield]

don't retire

you are one of the posters that kept macrumors alive during the dry spells and it looks like we are in a dry spell right now

we are like the san francisco giants and you are like barry bonds and it would be bad if you left

you swing the best bat and the forum need someone to battle john123 and his evil alter ego (you know who) because they will take your place and we can't have a unicameral house of commons here

 

[spikey]

Not really a dry spell, just alot of rubbish made up by nasty people who dont know anything about computers.

This forum is still growing, its really hard to keep up.
And its pointless debating with some of the new characters, they have an idea and repeat it till it dies.

(notice the lack of swears, just for you Arn.)

 

[spikey]

btw congrats on the 500 jef.

 

[mischief]

"Unicameral house of commons"

There's one you don't hear in the States very often. Are you a Brit? Canadian? Or just particularly well travelled.

 

[spikey]

Hes cultured. and probably well travelled.

 

[agreenster]

Hey Spikey

You aren't too far from 500 there yourself.

Before you know it, you two will have to design a little smiley face with a white beard on it.

 

[jefhatfield]

i'm not cultured

being a rural boy, i just got lucky enough to study a semester abroad through cal poly in london at london university

and being old for this forum, about twice the age of the average person i guess, you get to go places due to having seen twice as many sunsets

most of my youth was spent being a rock musician so culture is the last thing i ever wanted to experience but i did discover opera this year and i actually like it...verdi, donizetti, wagner, mozart, and puccini (don't quote me on the spellings of the names)

thanks for the congrats on 500 spikey and you are very close to that number yourself

i earlier predicted Mac_User or JoeyJ would catch up with us but my new prospect for reaching the highest posts next year is mischief...but if joey split his posts into smaller chunks he would be at 400 by now so it really comes down to words and ideas more than sheer numbers of posts and i have really put up a lot of useless posts in the past, but sometimes to get a reaction to make sure people were still willing to defend the mighty mac

 

[jefhatfield]

oh yeah,

and having early senility set in causes me to forget a lot and, get many posts, so i could answer the first question which is "no"

i am not a brit, canadian, or a member of the commonwaelth anywhere

i am a northern californian who lives just south of santa cruz/san jose/san francisco and the bay area

but when i was in london, i got separated from the other american cal poly students and hooked up with a girl from yorkshire so by the time i came back to america, i had a slight english accent...the same thing happens to the english who come to america

i pick up southern accents in just an afternoon talking to a southerner and new york accents are also infectious

 

[mnkeybsness]

Originally posted by spikey
I dont mind this new breed of poster, they are quite easy to debate with. They just say something slightly intelligent and then repeat it f*** knows how many times, even though you won the debate.

I just cant keep up with the amount of active threads on macrumors. Thats why i think i will retire soon.

DEATH TO SPIKEY!!!
oh no, now who am i going to fight with.