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Mr MM

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Jun 29, 2011
1,116
1
Here is the problem, I see numerous threads about haswell, and inputs on threads for people to wait, but what is that all about?

1) CPU

1.1) performance is going to be around 5-25% improved from the current ivy bridge line up.

1.2) There are some newer instructions for the cpu, those things make your cpu process your tasks faster


2) GPU

2.1) The gpu is going to be divided in several models: 4200 for ULV (read macbook air), 4600, 5100 and 5200, the last one is by logic the most powerful one, because it comes with more units that process the images and comes with embedded ram (its like the ram that comes in the gpu from the 15)

2.2) The expected performance from the 5200 is good, around the same improvement from the HD 3000 to the HD 4000, which was 50%, although there are people that think it will be lower than that, and I think it will be around the 640m that can be found in numerous notebooks

3) Battery life

4.1) New sleep state introduced, basically what this means is that your pc tries to make things as fast as possible and go to sleep, so it can save battery, but there are times when even when its "asleep" is too low, but in run mode its too fast

4.2) Aside that we expect some improvements regarding power consumption that are done with each new cpu that is released. And from the new chipsets

5) What Haswell isnt

5.1) Holy Grail

5.2) Flying Dutchman

5.3) Great boost in performance if you got ivy

6) Expectations

6.1) There are some expectations regarding the new mac line up, like:

6.1.1) MBP are going to die (I do believe that)
6.1.2) RMBP is going for some redesign (I do believe that)
6.1.2) Quads in the rmbp 13 (I want to believe that)
6.1.3) Different Sizes from what is currently offered, like 14'' or 17'' (I dont believe that)
6.1.4) RAM will be replaceable (unicorns do exist and fly, pegasus with horns)
6.1.5) Larger amount of RAM (I dont think it will happen on haswell, maybe broadwell since it introduces DDR4)
6.1.6) Dedicated gpu on the rmbp 13 (not only Im a talking fish, but I have a PHD in applied avionics for cows from the university Uranus)

If you can wait, wait. if you need, buy it - its that simple.
 

Serban

Suspended
Jan 8, 2013
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At Expectations point..when you do believe Haswell will come to macbooks ?
June-July or August-Sept?
 
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B...

macrumors 68000
Mar 7, 2013
1,949
2
At Expectations point..when you do believe Haswell will come to macbooks ?
June-July or August-Sept?

Perhaps even later, now with this USB 3.0 problem, so Haswell is only expected to roll out in small quantities on June 2, then in large quantities when the problem is fixed. I am hoping for August but it could be up to the holidays.
 
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Serban

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Jan 8, 2013
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Nooooo...i want a rMacbook with haswell (i want, i don't need), is toooo long until Holidays..i keep my finger cross for August
 
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Crzyrio

macrumors 68000
Jul 6, 2010
1,512
946
I am REALLY Hoping for WiFi ac, and I think there is a 70% chance we will see it :)
 
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F1 Fan

macrumors regular
Apr 18, 2012
189
1
UK
...6.1.2) RMBP is going for some redesign (I do believe that)...

...If you can wait, wait. if you need, buy it - its that simple.

What kind of redesign? I can't see them doing anything major.

As for your final point - agree 100%.
 
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xxcysxx

macrumors 6502
Oct 12, 2011
264
0
how about 11 inch retina macbook air.:D
it's not about the chip, its the era.
 
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B...

macrumors 68000
Mar 7, 2013
1,949
2
how about 11 inch retina macbook air.:D
it's not about the chip, its the era.
How about battery life? Think: rMBA 11", now with up to 3 hours of battery!

How about GPU? If a rMBP 13" with a 2.5 not ULV processor with 768 MB of Intel VRAM can't render perfectly yet...think about a 1.7ULV processor with 256-512 MB VRAM. It would be a software AND hardware limitation.
 
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e²Studios

macrumors 68020
Apr 12, 2005
2,104
5
World peace, kittens, and finally people will shut up about a simple processor bump.. More the latter. ;)

At least till the next one, then we will see 50 bazillion of the same threads again..
 
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Mr MM

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Jun 29, 2011
1,116
1
At Expectations point..when you do believe Haswell will come to macbooks ?
June-July or August-Sept?
Perhaps even later, now with this USB 3.0 problem, so Haswell is only expected to roll out in small quantities on June 2, then in large quantities when the problem is fixed. I am hoping for August but it could be up to the holidays.

I dont know, given that from the plans intel will launch around june, add to that the apple refreshed last year around that so, july august is a good bet

I really dont know about that usb 3.0 issue, there is something fishy about it, that i cant grasp
I am REALLY Hoping for WiFi ac, and I think there is a 70% chance we will see it :)
I dont know if will have that. I hope so
How about battery life? Think: rMBA 11", now with up to 3 hours of battery!

How about GPU? If a rMBP 13" with a 2.5 not ULV processor with 768 MB of Intel VRAM can't render perfectly yet...think about a 1.7ULV processor with 256-512 MB VRAM. It would be a software AND hardware limitation.

the main problem is the battery life
World peace, kittens, and finally people will shut up about a simple processor bump.. More the latter. ;)

At least till the next one, then we will see 50 bazillion of the same threads again..

and thats why i made this one, to avoid the spreading of countless threads of should I wait for haswell? My husband that went to buy a pack 15 years ago and never came back? or for the new and improved burrito from the corner?

btw we have some benchies on the 4600, its looking good actually

Remember that 4600 is GT2. Thats the greatest they will see in desktops. The high end mobile Haswell CPUs will have GT3, which will be faster. GT2 = 20 EUs, 80 ALU shaders. GT3 = 40 EUs, 160 ALU shaders.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-4770k-haswell-performance,3461.html

hitman.png

dirt.png

skyrim.png

wow.png

and you can clearly see the limitation of the ram
 
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bill-p

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2011
2,412
883
By the way, "high-end mobile" isn't a guarantee for HD 5200 (GT3) availability.

haswell_mobile_core-i7.png


Top-end Haswell quad-core chips won't have HD 5200.

It looks like HD 5200 will be reserved for very specific configurations. (maybe custom-ordered?)
 
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cirus

macrumors 6502a
Mar 15, 2011
582
0
Its going to take a lot to touch the 640m (more than double). Hd 4600 probably won't match the 630m (which is about 30% faster on average than the 7660g which is about 30% faster than the hd 4000). GT3 will be slightly faster than the 7660g but definitely slower than the 640m (may tie with 630m in some games).
 
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Mr MM

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Jun 29, 2011
1,116
1
By the way, "high-end mobile" isn't a guarantee for HD 5200 (GT3) availability.

haswell_mobile_core-i7.png


Top-end Haswell quad-core chips won't have HD 5200.

It looks like HD 5200 will be reserved for very specific configurations. (maybe custom-ordered?)

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-4770k-haswell-performance,3461.html

Tom's Hardware said:
The much-anticipated GT3 graphics engine, with 40 EUs, is limited to BGA-based applications, meaning it won’t be upgradeable. Intel will have quad-core with GT3, quad-core with GT2, and dual-core with GT2 versions in ball grid array packaging. GT3 will also make an appearance in a BGA-based multi-chip package that includes a Lynx Point chipset. That’ll be a dual-core part, though.
there is a hope, and sincerely if they are putting that in a ulv package (which is the idea behind the multichip package), I can think that that table might not be enterely correct

Its going to take a lot to touch the 640m (more than double). Hd 4600 probably won't match the 630m (which is about 30% faster on average than the 7660g which is about 30% faster than the hd 4000). GT3 will be slightly faster than the 7660g but definitely slower than the 640m (may tie with 630m in some games).

the 7660g is around 50% faster than the 4000. But according to the performance from that review, we can say that the 4600 is almost there, just look at the benchies from the 540m, or the 430m, which is the 630m in the end.

Sincerely Im quite hopeful if thats the performance of the 4600, im going to be happy to see the 5200 in action
 
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bill-p

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2011
2,412
883
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-4770k-haswell-performance,3461.html

there is a hope, and sincerely if they are putting that in a ulv package (which is the idea behind the multichip package), I can think that that table might not be enterely correct

It's showing the standard config, which I think is still correct.

Also with HD 4600 (GT2) pushing about the same power consumption numbers as HD 4000, I think it's fair to expect HD 5200 (GT3) to require a bit more power for its higher performance level.

And the important part for us all to consider is which part Apple will ultimately put in their notebook computers. I know for sure Apple cares more about efficiency and battery life than performance.
 
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xxcysxx

macrumors 6502
Oct 12, 2011
264
0
How about battery life? Think: rMBA 11", now with up to 3 hours of battery!

How about GPU? If a rMBP 13" with a 2.5 not ULV processor with 768 MB of Intel VRAM can't render perfectly yet...think about a 1.7ULV processor with 256-512 MB VRAM. It would be a software AND hardware limitation.

Whatever you say, it's inevitable.
Get ready for rev. A all over again.
 
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Mr MM

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Jun 29, 2011
1,116
1
It's showing the standard config, which I think is still correct.

Also with HD 4600 (GT2) pushing about the same power consumption numbers as HD 4000, I think it's fair to expect HD 5200 (GT3) to require a bit more power for its higher performance level.

And the important part for us all to consider is which part Apple will ultimately put in their notebook computers. I know for sure Apple cares more about efficiency and battery life than performance.

I dont know where you saw power consumption figures, please show.

The mobile space is where Intel’s efforts should become more apparent…and it has something for that market we anticipate will give AMD’s and Nvidia’s entry-level GPUs a serious run. CPUs with the GT3 graphics engine will only be available in BGA packaging, though.

I dont think that table is:

1) entirely correct

2) puts all mobile cpus in there
 
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bill-p

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2011
2,412
883
I dont know where you saw power consumption figures, please show.

Look at the table again. TDP is up 2W. And if you'd followed the CPU scene long enough, you'd know TDP is a rough guestimation of power consumption. In fact, power consumption should be higher than TDP because there is nothing that can put out more heat than the amount of power it consumes.

I dont think that table is:

1) entirely correct

2) puts all mobile cpus in there

I think the table is correct. Just that it doesn't show all mobile parts (obviously). However, it does show the MQ and MX Haswell parts that are replacing flagship MQ and MX Ivy parts. Those MQ and MX Ivy parts are mobile flagships for Ivy. Or if "flagship" is the wrong definition, then try "highest-performance". There is really nothing in the mobile lineup that's faster than the Extreme (designated X) parts.

Hence why I said "being a high end part" doesn't necessarily guarantee that it's got a HD 5200 in tow.
 
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Serban

Suspended
Jan 8, 2013
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Who is Hoping for WiFi ac the probability is almost 100% to have. Even a smartphone like Galaxy S4 now has
 
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Mr MM

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Jun 29, 2011
1,116
1
Look at the table again. TDP is up 2W. And if you'd followed the CPU scene long enough, you'd know TDP is a rough guestimation of power consumption. In fact, power consumption should be higher than TDP because there is nothing that can put out more heat than the amount of power it consumes.



I think the table is correct. Just that it doesn't show all mobile parts (obviously). However, it does show the MQ and MX Haswell parts that are replacing flagship MQ and MX Ivy parts. Those MQ and MX Ivy parts are mobile flagships for Ivy. Or if "flagship" is the wrong definition, then try "highest-performance". There is really nothing in the mobile lineup that's faster than the Extreme (designated X) parts.

Hence why I said "being a high end part" doesn't necessarily guarantee that it's got a HD 5200 in tow.
your guestimation regarding power consumption is not entirely wrong, the problem is that it can vary by as low as 10w or much more than that.

There is a reason that the x230 comes with a 90w psu when you equip with the i7 3520m, its simple, it sucks up more power than 65w when under load. And the system in total is actually more power efficient than what apple produces. You can guess how much that cpu consumes.

Another problem here is that according to intel that raise to the tdp was due to some of the functions of the pch being passed into the cpu, lowering the consumption and the tdp of the machine itself and raising a little bit on the cpu side.

a i7 3740qm can use up more than 55w when under load, dont want to know how much the 3920xm uses up.

the only guys in town that tdp = power consumption is nvidia. the rest it can very little or wildly.

btw according to toms, there are more quads that will come with the gt3, so yes it doesnt show. There is also very little need for the highest quads to have an igpu that is powerful (by intel standards), they are usually coupled with a dgpu, not to mention that would drive the cpu price more than it currently is, for example the 3840qm costs more than 500, quads start at 300 ish, dual cores around half of that.
 
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Crzyrio

macrumors 68000
Jul 6, 2010
1,512
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Who is Hoping for WiFi ac the probability is almost 100% to have. Even a smartphone like Galaxy S4 now has

ac is one thing that will be making it worth it. It not I might push the limits of my C2D till next year.

And im gonna say 25% chance for 32GB ram

It is to bad Maxwell got pushed back to 2014, else this would have been one heck of an upgrade
 
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Mr MM

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Jun 29, 2011
1,116
1
ac is one thing that will be making it worth it. It not I might push the limits of my C2D till next year.

And im gonna say 25% chance for 32GB ram

It is to bad Maxwell got pushed back to 2014, else this would have been one heck of an upgrade

more ram is a given/hope on broadwell with the introduction of DDR4, but Im not confident haswell will see that jump
 
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Crzyrio

macrumors 68000
Jul 6, 2010
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more ram is a given/hope on broadwell with the introduction of DDR4, but Im not confident haswell will see that jump

I did some more digging and found this, packaging options.

8zlncqFX.png


But do you really think Apple will allow us 32GB Ram in the rMBP? 16 right now is 200$.

If anything the cMBP will unofficially support it.
 
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dusk007

macrumors 68040
Dec 5, 2009
3,390
63
Where did you find that list?
I haven't yet found any evidence that Intel plans and Quad Core + GT3 combinations.
 
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