What's Next Power Users? Linux or Hackintosh?

[jblagden]

I’ve had nothing but problems with Ubuntu. Always driver issues or just plain weird bugs. On different computers, different versions of Ubuntu even. The Arch Linux and Fedora branches of Linux were the most reliable and pleasant for me. I really liked FreeBSD as well, but there was just too much end-user software missing for me and the community is just too small to find enough guidance for solving problems on your own.

Maybe Arch and Fedora just use newer versions of the Linux kernel. As far as I know, all of the drivers that are built into Linux, are actually in the kernel - not the distribution. The advantage to that method of "kernel-building" is that it allows everyone to have the same drivers regardless of which distribution they're using, which is a big deal since there are a ton of Linux distributions.

 

[lowendlinux]

Maybe Arch and Fedora just use newer versions of the Linux kernel. As far as I know, all of the drivers that are built into Linux, are actually in the kernel - not the distribution. The advantage to that method of "kernel-building" is that it allows everyone to have the same drivers regardless of which distribution they're using, which is a big deal since there are a ton of Linux distributions.

Most of the drivers are built in but not all.

Arch will always be on the latest kernels Fedora will trail a bit because it's not a rolling release. If you feel the need to always be on the latest and greatest I recommend SuSE Tumbleweed, it handholds better than Arch and the community isn't as bare knuckle as Arch.

With Linux there is no right answer only the best for you pick out the community you like best and go with that one.

 

[jblagden]

As someone else pretty much said in this thread, macOS feels a lot like "Linux done right". The hackintosh route on the other hand reminds me a lot of my earliest memories of Linux in the early/mid-nineties: it may be passable if tinkering with your computer is part of why you use it, but it's nothing I'd use on my primary work machine.

Happily, my regular requirements put me squarely into 15" MBPr and possibly 27" iMac territory, with the exception that I'd love a Mac that didn't cost like a good used car while still having enough horsepower to pull X-plane around at good detail levels without sounding like an F16 itself. As it is, this is one of my main reasons for having a Linux desktop in addition to my Mac laptop.

In terms of driver support and getting hardware to work, Linux is actually better than OS X. Since Linux is legal, while Hackintoshes are not - and there are probably more Linux users than Hackintosh users - hardware vendors are more likely to make Linux drivers for your hardware than OS X drivers. With Linux, you can build a PC, and Linux users are expected to use a wide range of hardware since it's pretty easy to build a Linux machine. OS X on the other hand, can only be used legally on Apple hardware. The only Mac that has PCIe slots built-in is the Mac Pro (2012 and earlier) and there aren't a whole lot of older Mac Pros around. So, the hardware vendors figure their Unix driver efforts are better focused on Linux than MacOS. As a result, it's extremely rare to have to do any hacks or make your own drivers. Usually, stuff works out-of-the-box. Otherwise, you can just check the repositories for drivers. If that fails, you can search the vendor's site for drivers. And if that fails, you can check to see if someone else has made a driver - (i.e. PyAlienFX and Razer Chroma). Generally, it's a lot easier to get PC hardware to work with Linux than with OS X.
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Most of the drivers are built in but not all.

Arch will always be on the latest kernels Fedora will trail a bit because it's not a rolling release. If you feel the need to always be on the latest and greatest I recommend SuSE Tumbleweed, it handholds better than Arch and the community isn't as bare knuckle as Arch.

With Linux there is no right answer only the best for you pick out the community you like best and go with that one.

Yeah. I just checked the Ubuntu page on Wikipedia, which say's it's currently using kernel version 4.4. Though, I read somewhere that Ubuntu 17.04 will use kernel version 4.9, which while not being most recent, it's still a lot more recent than 4.4.

 

[MacUser2525]

In terms of driver support and getting hardware to work, Linux is actually better than OS X. Since Linux is legal, while Hackintoshes are not - and there are probably more Linux users than Hackintosh users - hardware vendors are more likely to make Linux drivers for your hardware than OS X drivers. With Linux, you can build a PC, and Linux users are expected to use a wide range of hardware since it's pretty easy to build a Linux machine. OS X on the other hand, can only be used legally on Apple hardware.

That is twice you have repeated that lie an EULA is not the law of the land in any country on this planet in fact a lot of them go against the law of the land they are in that is why they all have clause stating that notwithstanding this EULA you have rights in your country and this may not apply in full to you... And as I remember it it says Apple labelled in that EULA or used too not sure have not read it in years now, so stick one of those stickers you used to get when buying the OS on your machine and it has an Apple label on it. As for the drivers a lot of the time it is matter of faking the PCIID to trick the system into using the already existing support but limited by Apple to their own hardware that is already present in the .kext for supposedly non-compatible hardware. Or like the NIC that is my main and spare machine use the driver that has been ported from linux to OSX for it.

 

[Mikael H]

That is twice you have repeated that lie an EULA is not the law of the land in any country on this planet

Uhm... No, pretty much the contrary, in the post you quoted, unless my reading comprehension has dramatically deteriorated.

EDIT: Oh, my reading comprehension truly isn't good when the source material lacks punctuation. Try inserting some of those dots and stuff next time.

An EULA may not be the law of the land, but has been through court enough times in the USA that publicly bragging about breaking it there wouldn't be a good idea, at least not for a company. Where I live, EULAs have not yet been tried successfully in a court, but I bet if someone were to build and sell hackintoshes here at a commercial scale, that would soon change, just like in the USA.

So yeah: It's not (yet) enforceable in large parts of the world, but the fact remains that for most people, running a hackintosh as their primary production environment probably isn't a stellar idea.

 

[jblagden]

That is twice you have repeated that lie an EULA is not the law of the land in any country on this planet in fact a lot of them go against the law of the land they are in that is why they all have clause stating that notwithstanding this EULA you have rights in your country and this may not apply in full to you... And as I remember it it says Apple labelled in that EULA or used too not sure have not read it in years now, so stick one of those stickers you used to get when buying the OS on your machine and it has an Apple label on it. As for the drivers a lot of the time it is matter of faking the PCIID to trick the system into using the already existing support but limited by Apple to their own hardware that is already present in the .kext for supposedly non-compatible hardware. Or like the NIC that is my main and spare machine use the driver that has been ported from linux to OSX for it.

You might want to remove the word "not" from your first sentence, as it makes it sound like I'm saying that EULA's are not legally enforceable, even though I'm actually saying that the are legally enforceable - depending on you live.

So far, Apple has only prosecuted companies which were mass-producing Hackintoshes, and not individuals, but they may one day start penalizing individuals, particularly if the Hackintosh user base gets big enough and the Mac user base gets small enough.

 

[maflynn]

particularly if the Hackintosh user base gets big enough and the Mac user base gets small enough.

I think a the Mac user base goes, so does the hackintosh user base. It could be me, but it seems the bloom is off the rose in terms of hackintosh. While many people still build them, I think the advances in Windows 10 decreases the demand for a hackintosh. My point is that with a possible shrinkage of hackintosh user base, I don't think Apple is going to do anything.

 

[jblagden]

I think a the Mac user base goes, so does the hackintosh user base. It could be me, but it seems the bloom is off the rose in terms of hackintosh. While many people still build them, I think the advances in Windows 10 decreases the demand for a hackintosh. My point is that with a possible shrinkage of hackintosh user base, I don't think Apple is going to do anything.

I’d say Windows 10’s adequacy really depends on what you’re looking for. For me, two big concerns are security and privacy. Windows is the most targeted platform for malware, so there goes security. Also, Windows 10 sends back a lot of user information to Microsoft and sells it to advertisers. Sure, you can turn that stuff off, but in some cases Windows 10 will automatically turn it back on when you’re not looking. And let’s not forget those backdoors. I’d like to stay with OS X as long as possible, but with last few crops of Macs, that’s not going to happen with Apple hardware. And a Hackintosh is more work than its worth.

I’ll probably just switch over to Linux. Specifically Ubuntu Gnome. I don’t really need any proprietary software, so Linux will be fine. And I’m not alone. A lot of Mac guys are switching over to Linux, and there’s even a section for Linux and Windows in this forum, and there are a lot of Linux questions there.

 

[cynics]

Sticking with Macs and MacOS for a while.

The only reason I would want a more upgradeable machine would to be to run the latest and greatest hardware and I would want the latest and greatest drivers to get the most out of the latest and greatest software (games and productivity software).

And although I'm typing this in Ubuntu now unless I had a specific use I wouldn't feel the need for building a Linux PC.

EDIT : Forgot the distro at first, it was Ubuntu. Lol

 

[maflynn]

I may reload ubunutu onto a virtual machine and see what I'm missing

 

[cynics]

I may reload ubunutu onto a virtual machine and see what I'm missing

Not much IMO. I like Ubuntu because the GUI is similar to MacOS (or vice versa not sure). OpenSUSE is typically what I use when I want to use Linux but imo that is similar to Windows XP/7 (I haven't used windows too much since XP).

In virtual box Ubuntu works great though.

 

[belvdr]

Ubuntu has come a long way with Unity. I like it much better now and that prompted me to switch from Fedora 25 to Ubuntu 16.10.

 

[Mikael H]

Ubuntu has come a long way with Unity. I like it much better now and that prompted me to switch from Fedora 25 to Ubuntu 16.10.

I think we should start a little religious war. I run Ubuntu Server on most of my machines, but I switched my gaming computer to Fedora. The only thing that truly sucks is that with an nVidia card, my experience so far is that X defecates itself about once every third or fourth time I install an updated kernel. On the other hand, unlike Ubuntu, I get updated kernels now and then..

 

[belvdr]

I have the same issues as you do, but my laptop is the Intel/Nvidia hybrid (Optimus), which stinks overall. There's no clear winner in my opinion. We should all run CentOS and deal with a really ugly GUI.

 

[jblagden]

Should have bought a Samsung.

And installed Ubuntu Touch on it!
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Should have bought a Samsung.

Or bought a phone with Ubuntu Touch preinstalled - though I know they were sold out for a while, and I’m not sure if they’re back in stock.
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You're moving the goal posts, you stated that there's " too many security risks attached and suffers from bad performance bottlenecks." Yet other then the first sentence, you go off on a tangent of everything that goes wrong with windows.

You made a statement that Windows is slow, and that's not true. Games is a great example of where the performance edge of Windows outstrips that of OS X. I've found the UI to be a bit more responsive as well.

Now addressing the other comments; OS X has had complaints about UI lagging since my 2012 rMBP

The way you make it sound, is that you cannot print, you cannot see anything (external monitors or wide), the UI doesn't work, it does not sleep or turn on. Basically your stating that a windows machine simply does not work, and I think we both know that's simply not the case.

I understand you love Macs and Apple, but that in turn does not mean that any competitor is instantly inferior.

If PCs had the number of problems you state, and is unable to do the most basic tasks, like duplex printing, then businesses would not use them. By the way, I've NEVER had a problem duplex printing, or with monitors. I've had the same amount of sleep issues on my PCs as I do with Macs. Some Macs did not sleep very well, and some PC did not.

Yeah, Windows often has better performance than OS X. It used to be the other way around, or at least it seemed like it. OS X has really been lagging behind. I think Apple’s prioritizing iOS over MacOS, and so they haven’t been maintaining it as fervently as they did in years past.


Windows beats OS X at gaming because Microsoft has a better API. They’ve had DirectX for 20 years. It took until year or two ago for Apple to finally start working on its own API, though they should have just used Vulkan instead of going their own way and expecting everyone to follow - works with iOS, but not MacOS. For years, Apple was trying to downplay gaming in an effort to get businesses to buy Macs:

Yeah, at this point, the competitors are actually starting to look better. This is especially true when you look at hardware. And once you pick either Windows or Linux, you can use whatever hardware you want.

With the sleep issues, I think it’s an issue of quality control. Like I said a little earlier, it seems like Apple is investing a lot less time and effort in MacOS, causing it to have all kinds of problems which just shouldn’t exist in an Apple OS. I expect that of Microsoft, but not Apple. In some respects, it seems like Apple and Microsoft have switched behaviors.
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Sticking with Macs and MacOS for a while.

The only reason I would want a more upgradeable machine would to be to run the latest and greatest hardware and I would want the latest and greatest drivers to get the most out of the latest and greatest software (games and productivity software).

And although I'm typing this in Ubuntu now unless I had a specific use I wouldn't feel the need for building a Linux PC.

EDIT : Forgot the distro at first, it was Ubuntu. Lol

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How can your Ubuntu machine’s disk only be 8.3 gigabytes? Are you running it off a flash drive? Or a hard drive partition? Or a Virtual Machine?
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Not much IMO. I like Ubuntu because the GUI is similar to MacOS (or vice versa not sure). OpenSUSE is typically what I use when I want to use Linux but imo that is similar to Windows XP/7 (I haven't used windows too much since XP).

In virtual box Ubuntu works great though.

It works even better when you run it for real (not VM).
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Ubuntu has come a long way with Unity. I like it much better now and that prompted me to switch from Fedora 25 to Ubuntu 16.10.

I think the Gnome3 desktop environment is closer to OS X. If you install the Dash-to-dock extension, you can make it look like the OS X dock. I also find it easier to move around virtual workspaces in Gnome because they’re arranged in a single direction instead of up, down, left, and right. It’s also nice because Unity is exclusive to Ubuntu, while Gnome3 can be used in any distribution - very useful when using different distributions.
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I have the same issues as you do, but my laptop is the Intel/Nvidia hybrid (Optimus), which stinks overall. There's no clear winner in my opinion. We should all run CentOS and deal with a really ugly GUI.

Have you tried Bumblebee?

 

[belvdr]

I think the Gnome3 desktop environment is closer to OS X. If you install the Dash-to-dock extension, you can make it look like the OS X dock. I also find it easier to move around virtual workspaces in Gnome because they’re arranged in a single direction instead of up, down, left, and right. It’s also nice because Unity is exclusive to Ubuntu, while Gnome3 can be used in any distribution - very useful when using different distributions.

I wasn't comparing the two and I'm not sure why you quoted me on that.

Have you tried Bumblebee?

Yes, and Optimus is still horrible. It's just a kludge.

 

[cynics]

How can your Ubuntu machine’s disk only be 8.3 gigabytes? Are you running it off a flash drive? Or a hard drive partition? Or a Virtual Machine?

Yes a VM. I used it for "for real" when I was between Windows and OS X. I got familiar enough with it that I want to keep it around so I use a VM. Mostly to see it's progress. I also have WinXP VM lol. OpenSUSE too, which is usually my goto when I have a Linux itch that needs scratching.

However currently I don't have much of a need for it. MacOS has everything I require for work and want to use personally. Plus with iOS devices I find the tight integration too good to leave MacOS completely which is why I run a VM, so I can still take phone calls and messages.

 

[jblagden]

Yes a VM. I used it for "for real" when I was between Windows and OS X. I got familiar enough with it that I want to keep it around so I use a VM. Mostly to see it's progress. I also have WinXP VM lol. OpenSUSE too, which is usually my goto when I have a Linux itch that needs scratching.

However currently I don't have much of a need for it. MacOS has everything I require for work and want to use personally. Plus with iOS devices I find the tight integration too good to leave MacOS completely which is why I run a VM, so I can still take phone calls and messages.

Which Mac do you have? Also, what do you think of the recent Macs?

 

[cynics]

Which Mac do you have? Also, what do you think of the recent Macs?

2013 iMac 27".

They are more than adequate for me needs. The newer models highlights appeal to me, like 5k display, pcie ssd, thunderbolt attractive design.

I can find plenty of faults but to me by far the best AIO available.

Other desktop Macs....meh.... definitely need updating.

 

[cynics]

Been thinking about this thread a lot recently and using Linux a bit more.

Not particularly interested in partitioning my HDD on my iMac I decided to get a laptop to run Linux exclusively (Ubuntu or Linux Mint probably) although I guess I could have just got an external HDD or used one I already have...Lol

I think I'm using all this as a excuse to get a laptop, namely a Lenovo Thinkpad T420.



The nostalgia nerd in me is geeking out. I've always wanted a Thinkpad.

For anyone interested it's an i5 2520M 8gb RAM ~350gb HDD, DVD, cost about 190 shipped from Amazon (used good condition) with Windows 10 w/ product key.

I don't know much about Windows but I believe this laptop is shipped with a recovery partition in place of a disc. If you have a unique product key can I download Windows 10 from Microsoft and use it on another machine (or on this machine in the future)? Or once I wipe it is it gone?

I didn't buy this machine for Windows but I do like the idea of owning a copy.

 

[Partron22]

Check: https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/ht103653

Took me 7 restarts of download process, but finally got a functional 64bit Windows 10 recovery USB stick.

 

[jblagden]

Been thinking about this thread a lot recently and using Linux a bit more.

Not particularly interested in partitioning my HDD on my iMac I decided to get a laptop to run Linux exclusively (Ubuntu or Linux Mint probably) although I guess I could have just got an external HDD or used one I already have...Lol

I think I'm using all this as a excuse to get a laptop, namely a Lenovo Thinkpad T420.

View attachment 693685

The nostalgia nerd in me is geeking out. I've always wanted a Thinkpad.

For anyone interested it's an i5 2520M 8gb RAM ~350gb HDD, DVD, cost about 190 shipped from Amazon (used good condition) with Windows 10 w/ product key.

I don't know much about Windows but I believe this laptop is shipped with a recovery partition in place of a disc. If you have a unique product key can I download Windows 10 from Microsoft and use it on another machine (or on this machine in the future)? Or once I wipe it is it gone?

I didn't buy this machine for Windows but I do like the idea of owning a copy.

I’m pretty sure the key can only be used on that one machine, but you might be able to get it working on another. Also, there are programs for extracting the key so you can use it later. Another thing you could do would be to clone the recovery partition, possibly with something like CloneZilla or - if you plug the hard drive into your Mac - Carbon Copy Cloner. Another option for cloning is the dd command, but that’s more technical. If I remember correctly, the syntax for the dd command looks like this: dd if=InputFilePath of=OutputFilePath

Since you’re new to Linux, you might want to take a look at the different desktop environments. For example, Mint comes in Cinnamon, XFCE, MATE, and KDE flavors.

 

[cynics]

I’m pretty sure the key can only be used on that one machine, but you might be able to get it working on another. Also, there are programs for extracting the key so you can use it later. Another thing you could do would be to clone the recovery partition, possibly with something like CloneZilla or - if you plug the hard drive into your Mac - Carbon Copy Cloner. Another option for cloning is the dd command, but that’s more technical. If I remember correctly, the syntax for the dd command looks like this: dd if=InputFilePath of=OutputFilePath

Since you’re new to Linux, you might want to take a look at the different desktop environments. For example, Mint comes in Cinnamon, XFCE, MATE, and KDE flavors.

Thanks. After a bit of reading it seems Microsoft would prefer if I kept Windows on the same machine since it's not a retail copy (probably a system builders copy). Which is fine especially considering I'm not buying the machine for Windows. Currently I'm using a WinXP VM when I absolutely have to, so it would be nice to have Win10. Probably just use Wine though with the new machine.

I'm fairly familiar with Linux, just moved away from it when I started using Macs in 2012. After reading this thread I updated my Linux VMs and have been impressed. I preferred OS X since I was familiar with terminal which is why I moved to Macs.

I'll probably use ubuntu with gnome, to me its reminiscent of OS X but different enough to not be boring.

 

[Fancuku]

I may reload ubunutu onto a virtual machine and see what I'm missing

Not much. Linux is still not ready for the desktop. Stick with macOS and Windows.

 

[Partron22]

Yes. Says one key one machine, and only 1 download per machine. Lord only knows how they enforce this stuff. Don't strike me as the most competent IT folk in the world, but some of that may be language problems.
If you can find a real phone number with a real English speaking person on the other end,you might go far.
Then again Byzantine websites tend to contain Byzantine holes, so persistence might well pay off.