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cambookpro

macrumors 604
Feb 3, 2010
7,189
3,321
United Kingdom
If you read the latest info (which you clearly haven't, like 99% of the false info you say), they go over the fact that you don't need an iPhone even on to do basic things like texting, Siri, etc., so it must connect to wifi in some way.

It can, but only to known WiFi hotspots (I presume with passwords stored in iCloud Keychain or just previously connected to by your phone). While this is very welcome news, I wouldn't say it's 'standalone' yet. I can't rock up to any old place and connect to the WiFi with just my watch.
 

Arran

macrumors 601
Mar 7, 2008
4,848
3,781
Atlanta, USA
Lower price (to get the devices into people's hands so it can sell itself)
Better battery life
Swimproofing
Better focus/simplicity
A bit more humility (I'm looking at you, Edition)

- standalone WiFi
- cellular
- GPS
- barometer
- compass
- standalone apps
- 3rd party watch faces
- ambient mode
- less confusing UI

Others can do it, why Apple can't?

Hey, you forgot all-over teflon coating to prevent sweat/gunk from adhering :p
 
No. Standalone WiFi means you can connect to any WiFi network without using iPhone, by selecting the network on the watch and entering the password on the watch.

You are correct that I don't believe you can access a new wifi network (there's no keyboard on the watch, so I'm not sure how that would work anyway), but after being connected to a network with your iphone once, you can apparently return to that network without your iphone, and the wifi will work.

I'll go with:

Sleep tracking

Is there definitely no sleep tracking? I know it won't be utilized much because most ppl will be charging at night. Regardless, there are dozens of iPhone apps for this, and I'm sure many of them will make a watch companion
 

thejadedmonkey

macrumors G3
May 28, 2005
9,183
3,343
Pennsylvania
I'd wager it needs an AMOLED or eInk display in order to be useful as a watch. It needs better sensors/software to be useful as a fitness tracker.

Truly the jack of all trades, master of none.
 

Cory Bauer

macrumors 6502a
Jun 26, 2003
615
233
I was not on the product design team of the iPad, so I am totally speculating, but as a (former) engineer, I would put the iPad problem statement as: keyboards and mice are unnatural modes of interacting with a device, and are often difficult for new users to learn. Users want a computer and applications that use a natural and intuitive method of interacting, which is easy to learn.
Maybe that was it, we don't know. But we do know that wasn't part of Apple's pitch. iPad wasn't pitched to solve any problems - it was just pitched as being better at a list of tasks than either the iPhone or the MacBook (and I'd say the 1st generation iPad being technically better at anything than a MacBook is a debatable topic).

You could turn that sentence to be about anything, like you did about the iPhone and I did about the iPod. However, that points out how silly the statement is. Unlike with the Apple Watch, high-level executives in charge of design did not say that about the iPhone. The iPhone solved many problems that are obvious now, but lacking at the time: easy text messaging, good full-site internet browser, good at playing video and music and viewing pictures, flexible interface that adapts to different uses on demand, etc.
The reason I used the iPad as an example is because the farther out we get from the iPhone, the more difficult it is to justify device's existence. The iPhone can do so many things that what we're left with afterward are just devices on either side that do certain things better than the iPhone - but nothing the iPhone can't also do.

I am just not sure there is a problem that smartwatches are solving. The category as a whole feels more forced than the existing ones - we have big far-away screens (TVs), big close-up screens (computers), medium screens (tablets), and small screens (smartphones). As time goes on, each of these categotries goes from specialized purpose to general purpose (tv>smarttv; cable box>media streamer; ereader>tablet; mp3 player>pmd; gaming console>media center), and then it each category eventually reaches saturation. It seems there are only two directions to expand this spectrum: either make an even bigger screen device, or an even smaller screen device. I can't imagine what purpose an even bigger screen would serve (programmable scenery windows, like in back to the future?). So they went with even smaller screen option. First this sector was tested with specialized hardware (fitbit, nike fuelband, etc.). Now it is being expanded to general purpose hardware (smartwatches). But why? Is this category being forced because all the other categories listed above have reached saturation?
It's not about screen size; it's about possibilities that open up for a wearable device that aren't possible (or aren't as good) with any non-wearable.
 

McCool71

macrumors 6502a
Sep 16, 2012
561
280
GPS I would absolutely love... but I also understand that using it for a long run would absolutely demolish the battery.

I don't think an hour here and there using the GPS (you do not run it all the time of course) would make much of a difference. After all there are smart watches out there now that has GPS and they have no problem lasting a full day or two.
 

Ries

macrumors 68020
Apr 21, 2007
2,316
2,829
My "glaring omission" isn't an omission of the first-gen, but an omission of developer support. The fact that no third-party developer is able to make watch apps that actually run on the watch is pretty horrible, and the cause of many reviews claiming that the watch feels slow and clunky, with apps that don't really do much. They all run on the phone, and tell the watch what to display, and then the watch tells them when a button press happens. And the dev kit is designed around simple menus, nothing more complicated, not sensor reading, not even detecting digital crown rotating. Apple claims they'll release the native dev kit later, they should have had that in developers' hands last November.


Have you seen those products?? There are only two I think, both are gigantic and ugly. One of them literally looks like a phone strapped to your wrist. Not a glaring omission but a reasonable choice.

The "LG Watch Urbane LTE" with LTE and GPS looks fine to me.

https://youtu.be/eYD4wYrWsK0

They even have a matching car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_USunjbBXQ
 

oneMadRssn

macrumors 603
Sep 8, 2011
5,980
14,003
Maybe that was it, we don't know. But we do know that wasn't part of Apple's pitch. iPad wasn't pitched to solve any problems - it was just pitched as being better at a list of tasks than either the iPhone or the MacBook (and I'd say the 1st generation iPad being technically better at anything than a MacBook is a debatable topic).
I know that we don't know. You asked me to speculate, so I did. :D I do remember the iPad being pitched as an alternative to netbooks. Jobs, or whoever presented at that keynote segment, talked about how netbooks have small keyboards, small difficult to use trackpads, and required being hunched over one's lap to use. I think my problem statement was broad-enough to encompass those notions.

The reason I used the iPad as an example is because the farther out we get from the iPhone, the more difficult it is to justify device's existence. The iPhone can do so many things that what we're left with afterward are just devices on either side that do certain things better than the iPhone - but nothing the iPhone can't also do.
The trend in the last decade has been to converged devices - where everything that used to be specialized to a particular purpose is now either become a general-purpose device, or has been absorbed into a general purpose device. However, somethings cannot become generalized - size of device, weight of device, portability of device. Which brings to my next point...

It's not about screen size; it's about possibilities that open up for a wearable device that aren't possible (or aren't as good) with any non-wearable.
It's not about screen sizes, but it is helpful to view these as distinct categories to see how they fit together and how they fit into someone's life. The way I described is how the consumer electronics industry views converged devices. Talk to any executive in this business at a trade show, and they speak in these categories (not necessarily those exact words, but some variant of them). Actual screen size doesn't matter, but a big screen viewed from far away device is a fundamentally different category than a medium screen device. Doesn't matter if the former is a 36" 720p TV, or a 75" 4k TV, they both occupy the same general category and they all compete with each other at the point of purchase. Most people wouldn't buy two TVs for the living room, or two TVs for the bedroom, while walking around Best Buy looking for a TV for the living room or bedroom or whatever. Same with medium-screen devices - doesn't matter if its a 7" kindle fire or a 10" ipad, they are a fundamental category and they compete with eachother, most people wouldn't use both at the same time or in the same place, or buy both when they want a tablet. Same with the other categories (big screen close up, and small screen). But devices do not generally compete across category lines - people generally don't walk into a Best Buy looking for a living room TV, and decide to instead get a tablet. They might walk in looking for a TV and get both a TV and a tablet - that also shows the two don't compete. They might get a tablet only that day, but they won't suddenly decide they don't want a living room tv. Etc. Exceptions exist of course.

This is all a long way of pointing out that the smartwatch is a new category. Does this new category solve a problem? Apple, Samsung, LG, etc. make it clear they don't want people to choose between getting a smartwatch and a smartphone, or between getting a smartwatch and a tablet. They want you to own at least one product in each category, maybe two in some categories that aren't as portable. After they made a sale in each category, the goal is to get you back in a short time later to upgrade to the latest version in that category - and have brand loyalty so you upgrade within the brand.

I agree that some things might be better on a wearable, no doubt about that. The question is, why should the category exist? Are consumers willing to accept a 5th distinct category, which is not a convergence of previously existing specialized products. The smartwatch doesn't actually simplify anything - rather it seems to just add complexity. Sure it does some things better, but are those things that bad where people will accept a 5th device just to fix them?
 
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Cory Bauer

macrumors 6502a
Jun 26, 2003
615
233
I agree that some things might be better on a wearable, no doubt about that. The question is, why should the category exist? Are consumers willing to accept a 5th distinct category, which is not a convergence of previously existing specialized products. The smartwatch doesn't actually simplify anything - rather it seems to just add complexity. Sure it does some things better, but are those things that bad where people will accept a 5th device just to fix them?
Well in a way, it is a convergence of products: traditional watch, fitness band and Notification Center. The last one has mostly been limited to geeks thus far, but plenty of people have or have had experience with the previous two.

Regarding adding completixity or introducing a new catrgory of device into one's life, apart from having one more thing to plug in at night I don't think you need to give the Watch any more thought than that. It's a thing that's just there when you need it, and silently monitoring your health when you don't.

If a potential customer never finds themself more than 1.5 seconds away from their iPhone because the thing is practically stapled to their hand, and they're happy to live that way, then no they don't need a smart watch. Just as I would argue if a person is sitting in front of their laptop all waking hours of the day, and are happy with that, they don't need an iPad.
 

oneMadRssn

macrumors 603
Sep 8, 2011
5,980
14,003
Well in a way, it is a convergence of products: traditional watch, fitness band and Notification Center. The last one has mostly been limited to geeks thus far, but plenty of people have or have had experience with the previous two.

Regarding adding completixity or introducing a new catrgory of device into one's life, apart from having one more thing to plug in at night I don't think you need to give the Watch any more thought than that. It's a thing that's just there when you need it, and silently monitoring your health when you don't.

If a potential customer never finds themself more than 1.5 seconds away from their iPhone because the thing is practically stapled to their hand, and they're happy to live that way, then no they don't need a smart watch. Just as I would argue if a person is sitting in front of their laptop all waking hours of the day, and are happy with that, they don't need an iPad.
So that begs the question, how many consumer electronics device categories are people willing to have? Would people be willing to add a 6th, 7th, etc. category? At what point, would people want to either converge two of them or remove one for being redundant?

Also, those things you said an apple watch converges are in the same category already - so it's not really a convergence. They're just specialized versions. The smartwatch is the generalized equivalent of them. Merging a smartphone and smartwatch, into one superdevice, which obviates the need for an individual smartphone and smartwatch - that would be a convergence because we end up with 1 less category of devices.
 

NOLF1

macrumors member
Sep 5, 2009
39
10
Lack of a camera. No question about it.

I think the camera was intentionally withheld simply for gen 2 of the watch as a major reason to upgrade. (There is not a whole lot you can add to a product like this to make people upgrade....)

Much less sophisticated competitor watches already have a camera, so it is definitely entirely possible to have a camera at this point. It was withheld intentionally, and I will bet money will be on gen 2.... gen 3 at the absolute latest. It will likely come with a FaceTime app.

I also anticipate yearly product refreshes on the watch. Why? Competition. Competitors like Samsung are pumping out their own watches and an absolute crazy pace now. If Apple doesn't refresh this product regularly, the competitors are eventually going to steamroll them.
 
Lack of a camera. No question about it.

honestly, I think a camera is one of the least important things right now. When a) you need to always have your iPhone with you b) space is such a commodity in such a small device; they need as much battery as they can get c) the camera would likely not be very good (at least not as good as the iPhone)

I think it's inevitable that a camera will eventually be on it, but I don't think it'll be for at least a couple more years.
 

NOLF1

macrumors member
Sep 5, 2009
39
10
honestly, I think a camera is one of the least important things right now. When a) you need to always have your iPhone with you b) space is such a commodity in such a small device; they need as much battery as they can get c) the camera would likely not be very good (at least not as good as the iPhone)

I think it's inevitable that a camera will eventually be on it, but I don't think it'll be for at least a couple more years.

As far as point A, didn't you just negate the entire point of the watch? "You need to always have your phone with you, so you don't need a camera". That argument applies to everything the watch does. "You need to always have your phone with you, so why do you need the watch to text/take a phone call/basically everything else the watch does". This, therefore, doesn't at all negate having a camera on it. FaceTime on the watch, I think, would actually get more use than on the phone.

As far as point B and C, competitor watches have already gotten decent cameras on their watches. If they can do it, Apple certainly can. Take a look at tear down of a phone and the front facing camera.... it is extremely small and takes almost no room. Decent megapixel cameras can be made incredibly tiny with current tech.
 

appleguy123

macrumors 604
Original poster
Apr 1, 2009
6,863
2,541
15 minutes in the future
Lack of a camera. No question about it.

I think the camera was intentionally withheld simply for gen 2 of the watch as a major reason to upgrade. (There is not a whole lot you can add to a product like this to make people upgrade....)

Much less sophisticated competitor watches already have a camera, so it is definitely entirely possible to have a camera at this point. It was withheld intentionally, and I will bet money will be on gen 2.... gen 3 at the absolute latest. It will likely come with a FaceTime app.

I also anticipate yearly product refreshes on the watch. Why? Competition. Competitors like Samsung are pumping out their own watches and an absolute crazy pace now. If Apple doesn't refresh this product regularly, the competitors are eventually going to steamroll them.

Try to hold your wrist in a position that the camera would see your face. It's uncomfortable to even do that for a single minute, let alone the duration of a FaceTime call. It wouldn't surprise me if this device never had a camera.
 

rick snagwell

macrumors 68040
Feb 12, 2011
3,749
101
alta loma, ca
gps for sure. as an iphone 6+ owner, i wish i could just have the iwatch on for my runs and then it d/l the data to my iphone. i cant run with the 6+.
 

Cory Bauer

macrumors 6502a
Jun 26, 2003
615
233
gps for sure. as an iphone 6+ owner, i wish i could just have the iwatch on for my runs and then it d/l the data to my iphone. i cant run with the 6+.
This excerpt from David Pogue's review may interest you:
David Pogue said:
Now, even if you leave your phone at home, the watch can track your runs. But it doesn’t have its own GPS, so how is that possible?

Get this: The watch’s motion sensor (accelerometer) knows every time you take a step, but it doesn’t know how far that step has taken you. But if you start out your watch ownership by going for a run with your phone, which does have GPS, the watch correlates your number of steps (and frequency) with the distance you’re covering.

In other words, the watch soon learns how much distance you cover with each footstep — it even differentiates between quicker footsteps and slower ones. Thereafter, it can calculate the distance you’ve run all by itself. That is slick.
 

rick snagwell

macrumors 68040
Feb 12, 2011
3,749
101
alta loma, ca
This excerpt from David Pogue's review may interest you:

thats pretty crazy, thanks for sharing.

im still not convinced it will be that accurate? its a watch ya know?! what if im wiping sweat off my brow, or holding that arm still for a bit while im running. still tracking steps somehow?
 

Cory Bauer

macrumors 6502a
Jun 26, 2003
615
233
thats pretty crazy, thanks for sharing.

im still not convinced it will be that accurate? its a watch ya know?! what if im wiping sweat off my brow, or holding that arm still for a bit while im running. still tracking steps somehow?
If it's smart enough to know if you're sitting or standing, it's smart enough to know that you feet are hitting the ground beneath you, even if your arm isn't swinging back and forth.
 

CmdrLaForge

macrumors 601
Feb 26, 2003
4,633
3,112
around the world
- watch face on all the time
- works for 72 hours
- gps
- syncs with Mac or iPad as well -- with that I mainly mean the managing aspect like apps music and watch os
 
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