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If you want to make a good argument against that: stop explaining why a trackpad would be useful or how "Microsoft did it". Instead, try to refute the (good, I hope) points I made about Apple's design philosophy and reasons why they wouldn't do it.

I'll use the example of right clicking. Apple for years was dogmatic about the single button mouse, then relented to ctrl-mouse clicking, and now magic mouse supports right clicks. I'll use a second example of discarding of their powerpc spec and adopting to intel hardware. Apple has shown a willingness to reverse itself on key design philosophies.
 
I'll use the example of right clicking. Apple for years was dogmatic about the single button mouse, then relented to ctrl-mouse clicking, and now magic mouse supports right clicks. I'll use a second example of discarding of their powerpc spec and adopting to intel hardware. Apple has shown a willingness to reverse itself on key design philosophies.

Adding a right-click to a mouse and changing powerpc to intel are not key design philosophies. Their key design philosophy is simplicity, for example, and a right-click mouse button is not any more complex than ctrl-clicking. The reason they were dogmatic about it was probably to differentiate, or Steve Jobs wanted it that way, or who knows. But it's not a key design change - even if it's a big change. Neither is changing the CPU - as big as a change that was. Neither is making a bigger phone or making the Pencil.

Adding two parallel input methods that are substantially different alongside another and that are key differentiating factors between two different computer platforms is a key design philosophy thing.

Of course, Apple can do whatever they want. Maybe they find some rationalisation for doing this. Maybe they find a great way to do it. I highly doubt it, but - again - I don't have a crystal ball. Just don't confuse adding a right click to a mouse, or making the Pencil with doing something that bring the existence of entire platform in question. It's not the same.
 
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1. The Pencil complements the touch system, the trackpad replaces it.
They did not design the Pencil to do the same thing our fingers do. The trackpad is designed to do the same thing our fingers do - that is the difference. They did not design it to manipulate the UI (in fact, they almost removed this option entirely) - they designed it to draw and sketch and doodle. The trackpad is designed to do the same things our fingers do on iPads and iPhones - manipulate the UI.
Actually they DID design it to manipulate the UI. Because of the way the Pencil APIs work. The fact that they DIDN'T remove it is an indication that it was their design. Some claim that Apple was simply responding to user feedback over it. I don't buy it. First, there are many things that users want and are more vocal about that Apple refuses to respond to. Second, the user base for the Pencil was so small at the time that I find it hard to believe that Apple would accommodate them.



2. The Pencil fits the iOS UI metaphor.
The iOS UI is based on a metaphor - we touch buttons, we drag surfaces and switches, we pinch photographs. Adding a Pencil to that - is as natural as adding a real pencil to a real paper. You can move the paper around with your hands, you can rotate it with your hands, you can swipe it away from your desk, but you can't paint well with fingers or just dip your finger into ink and write well.
That is a bit arbitrary. "Fitting the metaphor" is a pretty general statement. A stronger case could be made that a physical keyboard doesn't fit the metaphor... and yet not only do they exist, but Apple created a keyboard for the iPad on day-1 for the first gen.

Fitting or not fitting the UI metaphor isn't some dividing line for determining what peripherals should be made available.




4. The Pencil does not create user confusion.
You know what to do with it and WHEN to use it. No iPad owner takes the pencil and thinks - wait, should I use this to open mail? Sure, you can, if you already have it in hand - but no one grabs a pencil to start an app or swipe down the Notification centre. You take it when you want to write with your hand, draw, select elements on a photo, etc. You always know when to use it and how to use it.
Actually, people DO do that. There are a few threads here where people talk about using the pencil for UI manipulation as an alternative to a mouse.

The Pencil DOES create user confusion because Pencil support is at the APP level, not the SYSTEM level. While the UI elements are Pencil-aware, individual apps must be coded to recognize and support it. That inconsistency among app behavior causes user confusion. Yes, over time that will be reduced as developers update their apps, but the confusion is currently there.


If you think making a stylus or a big phone or a large iPad is the same kind of thing as creating a trackpad for the iPad, then we cannot have a good discussion, sir. Sure, they may make and even bigger phone one day. They may make a car. Heck, they may make a 15" iPad or add multiple pencils to it. They will not add a trackpad. I tried to explain my reasoning in the post above.
Your reasoning is well considered and explained. But as I mentioned earlier, a bit arbitrary. The EXACT same argument, could be used to justify why Apple should never offer a physical keyboard.

That is because ultimately this isn't about being true and pure to some vision of a paradigm (which Apple has demonstrated not to be true to) but about market, competition, and revenue.
 
Actually, people DO do that. There are a few threads here where people talk about using the pencil for UI manipulation as an alternative to a mouse.

I do it all the time; basically any time I'm already using the Pencil for something else I will also use it instead of my finger. I have also on occasion used it to manipulate the screen when I've been eating and on the iPad at the same time, so I don't touch the screen with dirty fingers.
 
Your reasoning is well considered and explained. But as I mentioned earlier, a bit arbitrary. The EXACT same argument, could be used to justify why Apple should never offer a physical keyboard.

That is because ultimately this isn't about being true and pure to some vision of a paradigm (which Apple has demonstrated not to be true to) but about market, competition, and revenue.

Perhaps you have a point there. I still think there is quite a difference between a Pencil and a trackpad (for one thing, you really can't sketch or scribble without a pencil, while you can use the UI without the trackpad) and that adding one makes more sense to me than adding a trackpad.... But, to be honest, I kinda doubted they will add a Pencil before they did. It just sounded too good to be true at the time - and Pencil turned out to be the best thing Apple did (for my needs, at least).

Still, I don't expect they will add the trackpad - but, ok, I can agree that everything we say here is arbitrary (an iPad trackpad certainly is) - so I guess, my views are too. In fact, I kind of hope I get proven wrong, I would love to see Apple turn the iPad into a more productive device. I doubt it very much so, but I can hope :)
 
Still, I don't expect they will add the trackpad - but, ok, I can agree that everything we say here is arbitrary (an iPad trackpad certainly is) - so I guess, my views are too. In fact, I kind of hope I get proven wrong, I would love to see Apple turn the iPad into a more productive device. I doubt it very much so, but I can hope :)

So you think adding a trackpad to iPad will make it more productive? I'm not sure about that. I think it'll make it more convenient for people using the iPad with an external keyboard, and/or using iPad to remote into desktop computers. But productivity-wise, it doesn't change anything, unless app devs add trackpad specific functions to their apps. Or am I missing something?
 
And to add, i use the Pencil 100% for UI nav and app opening/usage. 100%.

Yup, i use it for writing and sketching too, but i cant remember the last time i used my fingers for UI navigation or app use (except things that need fingers like zooming and notification/miltitasking swipes).
 
So you think adding a trackpad to iPad will make it more productive? I'm not sure about that. I think it'll make it more convenient for people using the iPad with an external keyboard, and/or using iPad to remote into desktop computers. But productivity-wise, it doesn't change anything, unless app devs add trackpad specific functions to their apps. Or am I missing something?

I wasn't clear - I meant, I would love if Apple continued to make the iPad Pro even more productive. I have no idea if a trackpad would help. Personally, I don't see a need for it, but hey, I'm open to trying new things. For me, the software is the only thing Apple and developers should be working on.

One of the features I would like (and we'll probably never come to the iPad) is to use it like a Cintiq tablet for a Mac (like with the Astropad app, only natively and with less lag). But, like the trackpad for some, it's just wishful thinking.
 
For me, the software is the only thing Apple and developers should be working on.

Agreed! I was very disappointed iOS 10 didn't have any major changes in file handling. Just some minor things like being able to save all attachments in an email at once would make a big difference.
 
Agreed! I was very disappointed iOS 10 didn't have any major changes in file handling. Just some minor things like being able to save all attachments in an email at once would make a big difference.

Indeed. However, as certain bloggers noticed, Apple is starting to spread out features across .X releases, so we might see some iPad related features with 10.1 or 10.2? At least we got dual tabs in Safari, which is actually pretty cool :)

Btw, one feature that is actually quite useful for productivity and I think a big deal is not, in fact, an iPad only thing: shared copy & paste with Sierra. For me, it will allow some combo work with Photoshop and Procreate. Looking forward to it!
 
So you think adding a trackpad to iPad will make it more productive? I'm not sure about that. I think it'll make it more convenient for people using the iPad with an external keyboard, and/or using iPad to remote into desktop computers. But productivity-wise, it doesn't change anything, unless app devs add trackpad specific functions to their apps. Or am I missing something?
Yes, your missing the whole gorilla arm thing commented on extensively at the beginning of this thread and in innumerable other MR posts. Oh wait, thats only making things "more convenient" for people using keyboards. More productive, more convenient--what is the destinction?
 
Btw, one feature that is actually quite useful for productivity and I think a big deal is not, in fact, an iPad only thing: shared copy & paste with Sierra. For me, it will allow some combo work with Photoshop and Procreate. Looking forward to it!

Yes, I'm looking forward to that feature. Haven't had an opportunity to use that yet, as I didn't want to install macOS beta on my iMac. I do love how iWorks syncs between my Mac and iPad, so I can seamlessly work on a document on either device.


Yes, your missing the whole gorilla arm thing commented on extensively at the beginning of this thread and in innumerable other MR posts. Oh wait, thats only making things "more convenient" for people using keyboards. More productive, more convenient--what is the destinction?

I do understand about avoiding gorilla arm, but that just increases comfort/convenience. I was asking if there is anything trackpad can do that just can't be done with touch, or is it just that more comfort = more productivity?
 
Quick question but when would people use a trackpad/mouse over touch/Apple pencil whilst using the iPad Pro?
 
A stronger case could be made that a physical keyboard doesn't fit the metaphor... and yet not only do they exist, but Apple created a keyboard for the iPad on day-1 for the first gen.

I do think that the "smart keyboard", although optional, sends a conflicting message, and undermines the underlying concepts of touch-based iOS, and peripheral minimalism.

People see what looks like a laptop, and then wrongly assume it is one. And the pencil is also confusing since it kinda works like a stylus on UI elements, but it's supposed to not be a stylus, etc...

Apple was wrong, philosophically, to market these peripherals with a touchscreen iDevice, but they were feeling pressure from above with the Surface, and from below with Chromebooks. But I'm not running AAPL.

(For the record, I have the Apple Bluetooth keyboard, and Logitech k811 that I use with my iPad Air. ;))
 
Apple was wrong, philosophically, to market these peripherals with a touchscreen iDevice, but they were feeling pressure from above with the Surface, and from below with Chromebooks.
Its hard--imo--to justify the 12.9 ipad pro without the pencil. It has immediate legitamacy as a best-ish in class graphics tablet. If they had pushed it exclusively as a super immersive consumption device--I don't know... That said--a lot of posters use it that way. When they pushed the smart cover it raised surface comparisons and expectations. Its odd to look at the smartcover "pop tent" and think this an Apple product; Microsoft killed it with the kickstand and magnetic cover form factor. But apple holds the hole card because they have by far the better app ecosystem. I think its the most interesting tech paradigm struggle i can remember, and will play out a number of years
 
Quick question but when would people use a trackpad/mouse over touch/Apple pencil whilst using the iPad Pro?

For me it's a familiar comforting option.

I use the Pencil almost exclusively for navigation. I find the Pencil's precision so wonderfull and finite and accurate it works like a mouse would, only it's a pointy touch screen thing. I have no other choice.

Now, if they produced a mouse all of a sudden, i'd probably instantly revert to it, becacuse its a device i use on a daily bases and have used for 30 years or so. Again, no specific reason over the Pencil other than it's comforting familiarity.

And then, why not? Why shouldn't i? Obviously the Pencil trumps all when it comes to note taking and drawing, but for general navigation and what-not then a mouse, for me, is too natural to ignore.

All boils down to choice. Keep the masses happy on both sides. Have both. We're all satisfied then. I love my ipad and it's touch screen portability, but ironically these days i never consider the finger touch option any more. Pencil al the way. (And that's Pencil only - regular stylus don't anywhere near cut it for me).

I'm a non-techie and couldnt give a stuff about the 'rights' and 'wrongs' of the purists' opinions of where Apple shoud/shouldnt be going, im only interested in the ipad for me. My use. What i spend my money on. Again, the track pad has traditionally never entered my use, but i'd certainly welcome the option of it. Why shouldnt i? Makes the whole ipad more marketable to even more people, ergo more profit.
 
Apple selling the iPad Pro as a laptop replacement is at the peril of the principle justification of the iPad—that it's *not* a computer, it's more personal than a PC, because you touch it rather than manipulate it with a mouse as a proxy for a finger.
Switching the iPad focus to laptop replacement imperils it to the befuddled product strategy of Microsoft's Surface which I liken to KFC's Famous Bowl which layers fried chicken, sweet corn, and cheese on a bed of mashed potatoes—Apple's strategy is let's elegantly arrange your chicken, potatoes, and corn on a plate that you buy a la carte so you may experience the tastes and textures lost in an inelegant mixture.
 
Seems like a huge disadvantage when comparing it to the Surface. Is Apple afraid of crippling the MacBook market?

Apple seems to try very hard not to have overlap in their products and there already is a lot of that between their Macbook line. One of the flagship features of iOS devices for Apple is their touchscreen capabilities. I don't see this ever being a feature especially when the Surface is not a threat to Apple.
 
Apple selling the iPad Pro as a laptop replacement is at the peril of the principle justification of the iPad—that it's *not* a computer, it's more personal than a PC, because you touch it rather than manipulate it with a mouse as a proxy for a finger.
Beyond parody, unless it is parody. Oh, you got me!
 
Apple already introduced a trackpad of sorts with the iPhone 6s. I find it quite useful for selecting the precise location I want the cursor.
 
Apple selling the iPad Pro as a laptop replacement is at the peril of the principle justification of the iPad—that it's *not* a computer, it's more personal than a PC, because you touch it rather than manipulate it with a mouse as a proxy for a finger.
Switching the iPad focus to laptop replacement imperils it to the befuddled product strategy of Microsoft's Surface which I liken to KFC's Famous Bowl which layers fried chicken, sweet corn, and cheese on a bed of mashed potatoes—Apple's strategy is let's elegantly arrange your chicken, potatoes, and corn on a plate that you buy a la carte so you may experience the tastes and textures lost in an inelegant mixture.

This is a great metaphor and I agree completely. That's the thing with Apple's approach - it's polarizing. I find it really hard to explain that sometimes 'choice' can ruin a product for me (this is the moment where they call me a sheep, but it's actually far from it). I am fairly certain that given the choice, I would probably end up switching from trackpad to touch and back, and it would actually change my usage patterns without giving me the opportunity to enjoy the benefits of each experience (even with it's downsides). No one would force me to use a trackpad, but just knowing it's there would create a situation where my experience is drastically different. I remember when I had an Android phone ages ago - I was excited with the ability to change UI skins, or whatever it's called. I ended up constantly changing them - one was always better at one thing than the others, and worse at some other thing. In the end, it was a pretty lousy experience, so much, that I ended up appreciating iPhone's inability to switch interfaces in such a way. But that's just it, I always enjoyed when someone - a company or an individual - had a clear and beautiful vision of their work, and I always approached their work holistically, taking the good with the bad and enjoying the work in whole. Like art.

Here's one scenario where just the choice of a trackpad would be bad for me. And let me stress that not everyone is the same, I'm not saying this choice would be bad for everyone (but then again, everyone has alternatives to Apple's approach). Sometimes I use Astropad to work in Photoshop with my iPad. It is a good experience, because for some work I still need to rely on good old Photoshop - but it almost requires me to use a keyboard/mouse as well. It hit me that when I use Astropad, I am almost always tied to my desk and while the experience is solid, one of the major advantages of iPad Pro - the ability to just lean back on my sofa and work - is lost. Let's say that there really is a trackpad for the iPad and that is works great and improves on touch in key areas. This would momentarily take away the enjoyment of moving around while working and ruin the experience for me.

You can argue that I don't have to use it, but I know how just this choice would affect me (and, I think a lot of people, even if they're not aware of it). It would create this "confusion" I keep mentioning: do I work with it or without, do I work at my desk, or from my sofa, do I take the trackpad with me when I'm on my vacation. Etc.

This is not something many people accept as a valid reason and they don't have to. It's not universally sound, it's just how I think and work. But hey, that's why you have a Surface or even Android tablets. I never understood why people spent so much money on Apple and then wished it was something it's not, instead of turning to (often cheaper) alternatives that are. Seriously, if you want a tablet with a pencil and a trackpad - what's wrong with the Surface Pro? It's a good device - just not for me. But if you want a trackpad, it may very well be for you.

But, as I said, if Apple can come up with a way to make a trackpad and still keep this clarity I enjoy, then great. Just don't expect Apple to be Microsoft or Google.
 
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Seriously, if you want a tablet with a pencil and a trackpad - what's wrong with the Surface Pro? It's a good device - just not for me. But if you want a trackpad, it may very well be for you.

While I personally don't want a trackpad on my iPad, I can see how some people might like iOS and/or hate Windows, but they still want a tablet that works with trackpads. To them, the Surface wouldn't be a satisfactory answer.
 
There's a similar function on the iPad.
So clearly Apple thinks there are some uses for that type of functionality. It's not that big a stretch to think they will at some point add mouse support to the operating system. People have been using mice with jail broken iPads for years.
 
So clearly Apple thinks there are some uses for that type of functionality. It's not that big a stretch to think they will at some point add mouse support to the operating system. People have been using mice with jail broken iPads for years.

Actually, I think it proves the opposite - Apple thinks you can achieve similar functionality WITHOUT a trackpad, but with touch instead. It just shows how you can be smart and improve the touch UI instead of replacing it with a pointer based solution. To me, it's a sign that iPad doesn't really need a trackpad, it needs better software. And that's the direction Apple is going to take, I think.
 
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