Which laptop: PB 15"/17" or IBM Thinkpad?

[legion]

Originally posted by Packetloss
Actually the Thinkpad T41p is not the top of the line Thinkpad anymore.

The R50p is currently IBMs top of the line which include just everything that the T41p doesnt have, like Firewire, DVD-R, 15".

The rest is the same when it comes to graphics card and CPU.

However the R50p is "very" expensive, very i might say.

Actually, despite the "more expensive" R50p, the T41p is still considered the flagship of IBM because of its build quality (frame contruction, material: the T's body is Titanium Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic (Ti-CFRP) vs the A's ABS plastic], thinness) and that the T series will get the newest improvements from IBM's Yamato research lab first.

True the R50p has a DVD burner (it's also a thicker laptop which is why IBM could use a stock DVD burner in the bay) and a better screen (an In Plane Switching (IPS) LCD at 1600x1200 at 15" custom produced for IBM), but under the hood the mobo setup is exactly that of the T41p. The R50p (unlike the rest of the R50 series) does not have a firewire port (though it does have the 2 PCMCIA slots of the T series.) The rest of the R50 series has 1 firewire port (unpowered) and 1 PCMCIA slot (though it can take Type III cards.) Currently R50p is looked at as a T41p for those who want a 15" screen and don't mind losing the ruggedness and mobility of the T. (It also is looked at like the replacement for the A31p, which was IBM's first foray into a workstation laptop, though the R50p is lacking the extra bay that made the A31p special and only adopted the A31p's IPS screen. Originally (at its introduction), the R line was the consumer/cheap line for IBM until they discontinued the A line and so decided to make the R50p to fill the void where customers wanted a 15" hi-performance laptop)

 

[yakirz]

Firewire

That poster suggested that Firewire is not a necessity. Maybe not in the PC world, but in the Mac world it is the standard.

Yes, now we have USB 2.0, but I will choose Firewire whenever possible.

One example: you can't connect an iPod to your Mac via USB 2 and charge it through the port, like you can with Firewire.

Originally posted by AmigoMac
It feels like a "general" point of view but with some hidden messages...

nevertheless, this topic feels like the one who really wants the PB but need a lot of reasons on paper to show his/her boss/wife/husband and convince everyone around that apple is the answer...

(That's what my cousin did)

Good luck and enjoy your PB

 

[yakirz]

IBM vs. Powerbook

I think it all comes down to the OS. Can you live with Windows, or do you want OS X?

I have a Dell Inspiron 3800, which I enjoy using. It has a 700 MHz PIII, DVD-ROM, 192MB, and 20 GB. Definitely not a top of the line system, but it was free (I won it in a drawing).

I also have an iMac Rev. C (266 MHz, CD, 288MB, 6GB, OS X 10.2). Though slower, I enjoy using my iMac more than my Dell. I wish every time I'm on my Dell that it was an iBook, even one a few hundred MHz slower. The OS is that important to me, even though some games I enjoy on the Dell (Midtown Madness 1 & 2, SimCopter) aren't available on the Mac.

 

[asphalt-proof]

The Thinkpad that you are considering is a work station grade computer. For what you will be doing with it you may consider the Powerbook. The Thinkpad is a bit overkill. I just recently switched and am very happy. I had no experience with Apple until I bought my iMac and merged right in... no growing pains at all. I think that you would be very happy with the PB or the IBM. I just think that that the $1000 more you pay for the Thinkpad could go to something more... like iTMS, movies, dates with chicks who are drawn to mojo-groovin'PB, etc.

 

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by legion
Actually, despite the "more expensive" R50p, the T41p is still considered the flagship of IBM because of its build quality (frame contruction, material: the T's body is Titanium Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic (Ti-CFRP) vs the A's ABS plastic], thinness) and that the T series will get the newest improvements from IBM's Yamato research lab first.

True the R50p has a DVD burner (it's also a thicker laptop which is why IBM could use a stock DVD burner in the bay) and a better screen (an In Plane Switching (IPS) LCD at 1600x1200 at 15" custom produced for IBM), but under the hood the mobo setup is exactly that of the T41p. The R50p (unlike the rest of the R50 series) does not have a firewire port (though it does have the 2 PCMCIA slots of the T series.) The rest of the R50 series has 1 firewire port (unpowered) and 1 PCMCIA slot (though it can take Type III cards.) Currently R50p is looked at as a T41p for those who want a 15" screen and don't mind losing the ruggedness and mobility of the T. (It also is looked at like the replacement for the A31p, which was IBM's first foray into a workstation laptop, though the R50p is lacking the extra bay that made the A31p special and only adopted the A31p's IPS screen. Originally (at its introduction), the R line was the consumer/cheap line for IBM until they discontinued the A line and so decided to make the R50p to fill the void where customers wanted a 15" hi-performance laptop)

You knew really alot about the IBMs, you work for IBM or a reseller?

 

[legion]

Originally posted by Packetloss
You knew really alot about the IBMs, you work for IBM or a reseller?

Nope. I just have my own private budget for my work so I research all my purchases which involves keeping up-to-date on any company I buy from (Apple, IBM, Avid/Digidesign, and other more specialized companies.) Luckily, over time I've built up quite a few higher-up contacts in these companies.

In the end it goes to justifing my purchases at the end-of-year to our CFO. They usually don't mind that I buy a lot of expensive "toys" as I do all my support/networking/etc as well. (I mean, after all, who really needs 4 laptops all bought in the last 10 months )

 

[MattG]

As if there's a choice...get the Mac

 

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by asphalt-proof
The Thinkpad that you are considering is a work station grade computer. For what you will be doing with it you may consider the Powerbook. The Thinkpad is a bit overkill.

The 17" PB is overkill too, unless you REALLY REALLY like watching DVD's and are planning to do it a lot without using external video.

 

[Butla99]

Thanks for answering all of my earlier questions everyone. I have a few more simple questions.

1. For anyone in Northern California: are there any IBM retail stores or other stores that carry IBM laptops so I can compare them to other brands?

2. For all of you switchers (from IBM, Dell, HP, etc...): was it easy to adjust to a new OS? Does Apple support all of the same software, like Word, Excel, Powerpoint (Keynote, right?), etc? Is it easy to transfer existing files from a PC (Gateway in my case) to a new Apple computer?

3. I have heard mixed responses about the keyboard stroke on PB 15" and 17". How is typing long documents on these machines?

4. Are the new commands numerous or difficult to learn (ctrl+alt+delete on PC, no true delete key on Mac that is equivalent to PC delete, cut/copy/paste, etc...)

Thanks once again for any answers to these questions. Feel free to add any additional comments or information that I might need/want to know before switching.

 

[i_wolf]

hi there,
Just a few things i think are worth pointing out.
Personally i went for the iBook. Thats another story but i do have access to a vaio zr centrino 1.6GHz.
Having used both iBook and vaoi battery life is fairly similar. The next point ive commented on a good bit before.
I have noticed that while the vaio smacks my iBook around in raw bench's and single apps , i have found that i am able to have more apps running at once at full speed on the iBook without slowing down. Is this the OS?? , or is it that a RISC processor like in the iBook is technically better designed for multitasking??!?! who knows?! For me this is the speed that counts and this for me makes my iBook faster than my sisters vaio!!! Since i regularly have 8 or 9 apps open at once.
I just thought that was fairly important.

In terms of games. You aint gonna beat the pc, its hands down probably one of the best gaming machines out there
You said that you were interested in mainly doing presentation with a bit of email word etc...
IMO, both thinkpad, powerbook are all extreme overkill for any of these tasks.
I would recommend an apple laptop to you for one main reason however. Keynote. This is an app on the mac that you just can't get on the pc and there is nothing else to compare to. I use this constantly for presentations at work. Its 10 times more professional looking than powerpoint (also runs on mac). You will find that using keynote when you have to do a presentation will make your presentation stand out more than your fellow students.
just my 0.02 !!!
i_wolf

 

[legion]

Originally posted by Butla99
Thanks for answering all of my earlier questions everyone. I have a few more simple questions.

1. For anyone in Northern California: are there any IBM retail stores or other stores that carry IBM laptops so I can compare them to other brands?

There are no IBM retail stores. There are a few IBM dealers that have a few display models, but rarely will you find any that have selling stock. Since the laptops are expensive, even if you do find a store that has some thinkpads, it'll usually only be the lower models (dealers are charged for display models so they won't open up a nice one unless you put down the money.) Since you've asked about Northern CA (which is a huge area), I'd suggest looking up on IBM's site for "business partners" or call IBM up and ask (or use their chat feature on the site and ask for the nearest large dealer (none of the small dealers will have display models-- so don't even bother with them.)) Since you've got your location marked as Bay Area, I'd check Stanford's computing center store or Berkley's. I'm fairly sure that Stanford will have some available for you to be hands-on with (just call ahead and ask.) Those are your best bets. Remember that you have to buy directly from IBM to get the 30 days no questions asked policy for returns (shipping paid for by IBM)-- IBM dealers' policies will vary.

3. I have heard mixed responses about the keyboard stroke on PB 15" and 17". How is typing long documents on these machines?

Best thing is to take something fairly long to an Apple Store and start typing. Since keyboards are fairly subjective, personal experience is best. This is what I usually do to test out new laptops. Also, even though the 15" and 17" have the same keyboard, typing on the two feels different (if only because the 17"'s keyboard is set so far back.)

My usual test, since I'm a touch-typist, is to go to a store and look around for some text in my line of sight and start typing for about 20 mins and then look over how many errors I have, examine how comfortable my hand placement was, if there were any odd key-combo placements (where you have to twist your hands to make "it" happen), and check if there are any hotspots on the typing surface (especially important with laptops) that will annoy me later. Some interesting results I've found to date include that the keyboard on the 10.6"WS Fujitsu P5000 has a more comfortable keyboard than the 16" Sony Vaios-- that's a result I would have never expected had I not taken the time to test in person because on paper it'd seem impossible.

 

[Packetloss]

One very important matter is the palmrest.

On the Thinkpad Txx series its made of Titanium.

Whats the deal with the Powerbook? is it all aluminum, or is the just parts that are?

Hear the palmrest on the Powerbook is plastic with sprayed aluminum coat.

Anyone know the truth about this?

 

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by Butla99
Thanks for answering all of my earlier questions everyone. I have a few more simple questions.

1. For anyone in Northern California: are there any IBM retail stores or other stores that carry IBM laptops so I can compare them to other brands?

2. For all of you switchers (from IBM, Dell, HP, etc...): was it easy to adjust to a new OS? Does Apple support all of the same software, like Word, Excel, Powerpoint (Keynote, right?), etc? Is it easy to transfer existing files from a PC (Gateway in my case) to a new Apple computer?

3. I have heard mixed responses about the keyboard stroke on PB 15" and 17". How is typing long documents on these machines?

4. Are the new commands numerous or difficult to learn (ctrl+alt+delete on PC, no true delete key on Mac that is equivalent to PC delete, cut/copy/paste, etc...)

Thanks once again for any answers to these questions. Feel free to add any additional comments or information that I might need/want to know before switching.

To answer some of your questions i think its a bad move to switch to Mac if you still plan on using MS Office.

Thats one of the reason many switchers switch to get get rid of MS once and for all.

MS Office is faster and much better working on Windows XP than OSX, so you will get a worse deal switching i might say if you primary goal is to used Office.

About the keyboard, no one can beat the keyboards on the Thinkpads, they are worldclass.

I've heard some Powerbook users that have switched that the keyboard is too small, i don't know if this is true but it's not like IBMs....

Well, i've tried OSX a bit and it's simpler and more straightforward than Windows, XP or 2000 is more technically pleasing with many levels to seek in which can be confusing for less advanced users.

The reason you switch to OSX which builds on a Unix core, that's the only and main reason i myself is considering OSX, i would never switch if Apple still used OS9.

However, MS is releasing Longhorn 2005/2006 which seems to be a real plagiat of OSX and Linux in some way, but it's still the same Windows core.......

The other thing you have to consider is the one mouse button thing, it's easy solvable, but it might get irritating.

However, the Powerbook got Bluetooth so you can buy a external bluetooth mouse, BUT, it doesnt work nicely, there is some lagging i heard with the mouse pointer.

You better get a USB mouse instead.

But there is one disadvantage more, if you buy the external mouse you still havent solved the problem as when you travel alot and go by the pigclass when you are flying you will notice that the one mouse button thing is stupid because its so hard to use a external mouse when you are sitting on the plane in a narrow space, even the PB 17" might be too big for you.

The Thinkpad is neat and you can take it anywhere, and remember its 1400x1050 resolution which is pretty high when you consider the low resolution of the PB 17" for its size.

And lastly, someone mentioned if you got the PB 17" you watch DVD movies, i can say that the DVD player for OSX is bad because it got the worst de-interlacing in the market, that might be a worthy consideration also if you are going to use it as a DVD player.

 

[riwanami]

1. For anyone in Northern California: are there any IBM retail stores or other stores that carry IBM laptops so I can compare them to other brands?

2. For all of you switchers (from IBM, Dell, HP, etc...): was it easy to adjust to a new OS? Does Apple support all of the same software, like Word, Excel, Powerpoint (Keynote, right?), etc? Is it easy to transfer existing files from a PC (Gateway in my case) to a new Apple computer?

3. I have heard mixed responses about the keyboard stroke on PB 15" and 17". How is typing long documents on these machines?

4. Are the new commands numerous or difficult to learn (ctrl+alt+delete on PC, no true delete key on Mac that is equivalent to PC delete, cut/copy/paste, etc...)

[/B]

1. I don't live in Northern California, so I can't help you here. If you do find a T41p, take a look at the R50p's screen as well. It's a 15inch Flexview display, which is brighter and has a wider viewing angle than the T41p.

2. Adjusting to OS X was easy. As I stated before in my previous post, I had trouble converting emails from Outlook Express to my Mac. I also had trouble viewing some PowerPoint files, as the fonts from the PC was not recognized on the Mac. However, for the most part, you won't have any problems transferring files from your Gateway to a PowerBook, as long as you have Microsoft Office for Mac installed. Probably, the easiest way to transfer is to copy your files in your Gateway into a CD-R disc, and just pop that disc into the PowerBook. For Office related files, photos (such as GIF, JPEG, TIFF), PDF files, MP3, MPEG, and WAV files, you won't have any problems reading straight off of the disc that you made on your PC.

3. I think the keyboard on the 15 and 17 inch AL PowerBooks is the best keyboard that Apple has ever installed on its PowerBook line. If you get the illuminated keyboard, you'll wonder why no one has come up with this idea earlier. The light is much better than the small light on the lid on the ThinkPad.

However, when typing long documents, I personally prefer the ThinkPad keyboard. It's more tactile and has more travel space. But this is just my personal preference.

4. The commands on the Mac are pretty straight forward and are pretty similar to Windows. For example, as Ctrl+C is copy on PCs, the "Open Apple Key"+C is Copy on Macs. (I'm not sure if they still call it the Open Apple Key) In any case, if you get a Mac, you'll never use Ctrl+Alt+Del again.

I hope this helps.

 

[legion]

Originally posted by Packetloss
One very important matter is the palmrest.

On the Thinkpad Txx series its made of Titanium.

Whats the deal with the Powerbook? is it all aluminum, or is the just parts that are?

Hear the palmrest on the Powerbook is plastic with sprayed aluminum coat.

Anyone know the truth about this?

The ThinkPad's palmrest is not made of Titanium. It is the only piece that doesn't use Ti-CFRP; it is ABS plastic.

If I remember right, the Powerbook palmrest is also plastic (I don't know which type) painted to match (but not an "aluminum" coat which would imply a metal coating.)

Either way, this shouldn't be a major concern other than reported "corroding" of the surface of the PB palmrest from human sweat/oils (IBM had a similar issue about 6 years back with one series and they ended up replacing the type of plastic used and sent replacement pieces to all the owners because the black finish was getting marred over time (1yr+)) It's all cosmetic (and nowhere near the 15" Ti Book's issues with paint)

I'd worry more about heat issues anywhere near your hands since that will affect long-term usablity if you type a lot.

 

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by riwanami
If you get the illuminated keyboard, you'll wonder why no one has come up with this idea earlier.

Second! Was it really that much of a stretch to make a backlit keyboard?

And I'll also toss in a vote for Keynote, those transitions beat the tar out of anything in PowerPoint.

 

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by legion
The ThinkPad's palmrest is not made of Titanium. It is the only piece that doesn't use Ti-CFRP; it is ABS plastic.

If I remember right, the Powerbook palmrest is also plastic (I don't know which type) painted to match (but not an "aluminum" coat which would imply a metal coating.)

Either way, this shouldn't be a major concern other than reported "corroding" of the surface of the PB palmrest from human sweat/oils (IBM had a similar issue about 6 years back with one series and they ended up replacing the type of plastic used and sent replacement pieces to all the owners because the black finish was getting marred over time (1yr+)) It's all cosmetic (and nowhere near the 15" Ti Book's issues with paint)

I'd worry more about heat issues anywhere near your hands since that will affect long-term usablity if you type a lot.

Actually you are wrong about the Titanium part, i checked that up with IBMs technical documents, that was true for the older Thinkpads like T20....

The T41 uses Magnesium now.

But it's bad that the palmrest is plain plastic because i got the old Thinkpad T20 and i have changed the palmrest twice due to wear.

It doesn't look nice after some time when you have typed alot

 

[legion]

Originally posted by Packetloss
Actually you are wrong about the Titanium part, i checked that up with IBMs technical documents, that was true for the older Thinkpads like T20....

The T41 uses Magnesium now.

But it's bad that the palmrest is plain plastic because i got the old Thinkpad T20 and i have changed the palmrest twice due to wear.

It doesn't look nice after some time when you have typed alot

Nope, I'm right. The html page you've seen is referring to the specs of the cover material. They used to explain it with more clarity (but it seems their html table loading specs are missing fields now.)

Taken from IBM's internal documents (pdf file: tabook.pdf):

"Magnesium alloy in the top cover, titanium-reinforced carbon fiber reinforced plastic
(Ti-CFRP) in bottom cover"

The X series uses a Titanium cover material, but the body/bottom material is Ti-CFRP. You can find more info on Ti-CFRP (which is an amalgamation of materials) in IBM's research website whitepapers.

Besides those documents, I have a T41p (typing on it now) and I've seen the internals. I've also never owned a T20, so I wouldn't be doing comparisons to that laptop (other Thinkpads I've owned were the 600series and butterfly 700series) (The T20/T30 form factors didn't impress me.)

 

[mj_1903]

If you want another opinion to throw in the mix...

The 15" PBook's are now fixed in terms of the screen problems (I would know, I work in an Apple store). As for not letting people have a look at laptops, its actually policy for us to show people the machines in case there are imperfections as it costs us money to send those machines back to get repaired and unhappy customers are unhappy customers...

As for the speaker quality, the PowerBook is amazing for a laptop. I have listened to Dell's, Toshiba's and a Thinkpad over the last year and the PowerBook has stunned me with the depth and breadth of the sound. Saying this though, its not perfect. It does have distortion (the 3 speakers are tiny) and its volume level doesn't compete with a stereo but its great for listening to DVD's or bumping out some beats whenever you need to. I am generally a classical listener and its great for that aspect.

Now, speed...always a tough one. Remember, MacWorld SF is just around the corner and I have heard rumors of a speed bump across the line and that is from Apple HQ. I never take people's word on updates though.

Hope your decision works out for you.

Mat

 

[legion]

Originally posted by mj_1903

As for not letting people have a look at laptops, its actually policy for us to show people the machines in case there are imperfections as it costs us money to send those machines back to get repaired and unhappy customers are unhappy customers...

interesting to know.. could come in handy down the line.

As for the speaker quality, the PowerBook is amazing for a laptop. I have listened to Dell's, Toshiba's and a Thinkpad over the last year and the PowerBook has stunned me with the depth and breadth of the sound. Saying this though, its not perfect.

I have to agree that the 17"PB has really good speakers for a laptop (better than the JBL speakers HP/Comapaq integrate into their workstation laptops.) The PB speakers have good depth of field, though I think the position/angle of the speakers is poor (pointing directly up and in the case of the 17", set far back near the LCD) It'd be great if they angled the drivers towards the listener as much as possible within the form factor.

 

[Butla99]

I was trying to figure this out from ATI's website, but that just confused me more. Obviously, the ATI 128MB Mobility FireGL T2 (used in the IBM T41p and R50p) has twice the MB of the ATI 64MB Radeon 9600 (used in PB 15" and 17"), but are they supposed to be optimized for certain applications? Will one work better for gaming/DVD's/etc. and one work better for detailed presentations and business-type appplications? Or is one just better and faster overall? I am not too familiar with all the terms relating to graphics cards, but I do know some and I know that bigger numbers are generally better (except when talking about time issues). Anyway, I am leaning towards one of the IBM notebooks over the PB (don't judge me, I love the PB's also but I am not sure that I am ready to switch) and wanted to make sure the Fire GL T2 was a great graphics card for all purposes, entertainment and business.

 

[legion]

Originally posted by Butla99
I was trying to figure this out from ATI's website, but that just confused me more. Obviously, the ATI 128MB Mobility FireGL T2 (used in the IBM T41p and R50p) has twice the MB of the ATI 64MB Radeon 9600 (used in PB 15" and 17"), but are they supposed to be optimized for certain applications? Will one work better for gaming/DVD's/etc. and one work better for detailed presentations and business-type appplications? Or is one just better and faster overall? I am not too familiar with all the terms relating to graphics cards, but I do know some and I know that bigger numbers are generally better (except when talking about time issues). Anyway, I am leaning towards one of the IBM notebooks over the PB (don't judge me, I love the PB's also but I am not sure that I am ready to switch) and wanted to make sure the Fire GL T2 was a great graphics card for all purposes, entertainment and business.

All the Fire GL cards are ISV certified. It tends to cost more to put cards through that testing and then "driver profiles" are created to able to be loaded for application specific needs (on-the-fly) The base GPU is a Radeon 9600, but with more RAM and a RAMDAC clocked at a slightly higher speed.

"Business" applications are never very graphic intensive ("detailed presentations and business-type appplications.") They could be run off of 16MB cards with no problem.

ISV applications are all 3D intensive apps (CAD/CAM, architecture, 3D modeling.) These apps require alot out of the GPU mostly for 3D rotation (usually buffering of surface maps, etc, which requires more RAM) Games would be the second most demanding group of applications on a GPU (only second because most of the time, gaming code can "cheat" since "what's going to happen next" can be predetermined and graphics can be, to a degree, pre-built-- unlike ISV apps where the user's input is much more random and a combination of those user inputs will effect the visuals.)

Entertainment (video watching, spanning, etc.) is far less demanding because usually those are hard-coded actions. The ATI Fire GL T2 128MB will act just like a Radeon 9600 Pro (except with powersaving features), with hardware accelerated OpenGL and DirectX9, all the time an ISV apps isn't used. In fact, you won't even take advantage of the ISV features unless you use the application profiles in the settings page. It will work transparently in the background and will not need "tending" to.

Simple answer, yes; it's an all around great graphics card. However, if all the specs listed on ATI's page threw you for a loop on the FireGL series of cards, you're mostly likely not a target user for this system and it'll be overkill.

 

[Butla99]

Legion, thanks for the input. I understand more than I made it seem like I do. Maybe not as much as you, but I am fairly competant. Anyway, a fully-loaded T41p or R50p probably is overkill, but I figure if I am going to spend $2500+ on a laptop I might as well go for broke and max it out. It will last longer, I will be happier, and I won't want/need to buy another one for awhile. Besides, at least part of the expense will hopfeully be a birthday/Christmas gift, the rest my credit card can handle.

 

[Skilz34]

I work with IBM ThinkPads, actually I repair them. Actually I work for, well you can figure it out. IBM's quality in ThinkPads have gone down the drain.......let me put it to you this way:

I just bought a Powerbook. Get a powerbook. IBM's ThinkPad's are not what they seem.

 

[Packetloss]

Originally posted by Skilz34
I work with IBM ThinkPads, actually I repair them. Actually I work for, well you can figure it out. IBM's quality in ThinkPads have gone down the drain.......let me put it to you this way:

I just bought a Powerbook. Get a powerbook. IBM's ThinkPad's are not what they seem.

Yeah right

The Thinkpad T-series is the best laptop you can buy for money when it comes to quality.

Try bring your shiny new Powerbook out on the field and you will notice what a solid construction you have with the Thinkpad as it's very hard to scratch them, at least so with my T20.

However i think Powerbooks comes at second place after my after thoughts about reviewing users opinion.