Who actually is the 12" MacBook for?

[Dave245]

Dave as we know from the other threads that your dabble with Surface products was almost exclusively from a mobile OS perspective to point you was almost unaware of the wealth of software available like MacOS or W10 outside of mobile app stores

Had you been an equal virgin to MacOS as you were to W10 coming from a IOS your perspective and findings would of been similar to the point that MS Office was not in the MAC store (well until very recently)

There is no doubt that IPP fits your needs as you like the few relatively inexpensive yet intuitive drawing apps and only dabble with a few mainstream programmes on occasion

You simply do not require the power of flexibility offered by 2 in 1 like the Surface range and I suspect other than than comfort feeling of just in case, you could almost do away with MacOS too.

I really liked my svelte rMB that my eldest now has and my wife's 2015 1.1 has been trouble free but I put that down to more she runs it exclusively as a W10 via bootcamp.

I'm not sure what to replace her rMB with as she has little requirement for tablets especially as they mainly replicate her phone and she's content with her current arrangement and no excessive duplication that a typical Mobile OS tablet brings

Personally for my very limited freehand skills I perceive no benefit of the IPP marginally or arguably better pen vs all it's other weakness compared to full programmes available on a full OS platforms and not the mainly dumb down IOS equivalents.

I think you should still consider a rMB to compliment your new to be IPP as the portability and so extra usage you gain from this means the rMB is more likely to be used than eg just an IMac or mini sitting in the corner of the room

It was from a mobile prospective but also a computer one, as you will recall i did mention that the Surface Pro 6 is an ok computer. For me MacOS is just miles better in that it's easier to use and it looks a lot better, as i also mentioned lag and freeze ups, something that have never had with my iMac or my 2011 Macbook Pro (before it died). Windows and the Surface Pro is OK in that it's useable, but to me it's not enjoyable, it doesn't have that feeling that the Mac and IOS devices have.

Maybe it's because i'm use to MacOS having used it since 2011. I also pointed out that the Surface Pro 6 was not a good tablet to me it isn't, the iPad is a FAR better tablet. My overall consensus is that the Surface is an OK computer, but it's a BAD tablet! Which got me thinking that because it's a 2in1 device it's trying to be both a tablet and a laptop, in the end i've been left feeling that it's not great at either of those things. Which is a shame!

That's in comparison to an iPad and a Mac, i can't compare it to other Window devices because i don't own any. I think that the iPad is a better tablet because it is a tablet, while the Mac is a better PC/computer because it is a PC/computer rather than watering it down by making either into a 2in1.

I'm really not here to bash Windows, i'm just giving an honest opinion of what i think and experience, there are things that i like about the Surface as well, that kickstand for example is very helpful and the screen is great (retina i believe). Neither to i think Apple is perfect, they have made a lot of mistakes just lately, the price increase on their devices is one, the failure of the earlier keyboards is another. No one is perfect and i think it comes down to personal preference.

I probably could do away with MacOS but i really like it, Mojave is my favourite so far. Saying that tho i do use the Mac for things like Pixelmator Pro, iMove and some games like Two Point Hospital. I like to be able to edit photos on the iPad Pro but also on the Mac when i'm in the home office.

Something for on the go would be a great benefit like the Retina Macbook or the Macbook Air! The Pro would probably be a bit overkill for me. Apple haven't updated the Retina Macbook yet so buying that would be a bad move considering it never got an update last year (which i'm surprised about to be honest).

 

[mj_]

Something for on the go would be a great benefit like the Retina Macbook or the Macbook Air! The Pro would probably be a bit overkill for me. Apple haven't updated the Retina Macbook yet so buying that would be a bad move considering it never got an update last year (which i'm surprised about to be honest).

Which is why now is the best time to get one! And that is no joke.

With a possible upgrade, the 12" MacBook is going to receive not only the 2018 generation butterfly keyboard that is just as crappy and sensitive to dust and debris but not covered by the repair program! Once it breaks, and it will definitely start acting up sooner or later, you're looking at a several hundred dollar repair bill. Plus, it will almost certainly get the dreaded T2 chip that is causing a huge plethora of issues on the iMac Pro, the MacBook Pro, the MacBook Air, and now also the Mac Mini. And last but not least it is most likely also going to be more expensive, because that has been Apple's ultimate solution to fight plummeting sales.

 

[Dave245]

Which is why now is the best time to get one! With a possible upgrade, the 12" MacBook is going to receive not only the 2018 generation butterfly keyboard that is just as crappy and sensitive but not covered by the repair program, meaning that once it breaks you're looking at a several hundred dollar bill. Plus, it will most likely also get the dreaded T2 chip that is causing a huge plethora of issues on the iMac Pro, the MacBook Pro, the MacBook Air, and now also the Mac Mini. And, last but not least, it is most likely also going to be more expensive, because that has been Apple's ultimate solution to fight plummeting sales.

The 3rd gen keyboard is suppose to be better, however the 12” still has the butterfly keyboard that was prone to failing.

Buying one know would mean buying a device that has a processor that’s now has fast at the new Air and is out of date since 2017. Maybe Apple will update the 12” at some point this year, maybe a redesign? or just a spec bump, at this point who knows.

 

[SteveJUAE]

It was from a mobile prospective but also a computer one, as you will recall i did mention that the Surface Pro 6 is an ok computer. For me MacOS is just miles better in that it's easier to use and it looks a lot better, as i also mentioned lag and freeze ups, something that have never had with my iMac or my 2011 Macbook Pro (before it died). Windows and the Surface Pro is OK in that it's useable, but to me it's not enjoyable, it doesn't have that feeling that the Mac and IOS devices have.

Maybe it's because i'm use to MacOS having used it since 2011. I also pointed out that the Surface Pro 6 was not a good tablet to me it isn't, the iPad is a FAR better tablet. My overall consensus is that the Surface is an OK computer, but it's a BAD tablet! Which got me thinking that because it's a 2in1 device it's trying to be both a tablet and a laptop, in the end i've been left feeling that it's not great at either of those things. Which is a shame!

That's in comparison to an iPad and a Mac, i can't compare it to other Window devices because i don't own any. I think that the iPad is a better tablet because it is a tablet, while the Mac is a better PC/computer because it is a PC/computer rather than watering it down by making either into a 2in1.

I'm really not here to bash Windows, i'm just giving an honest opinion of what i think and experience, there are things that i like about the Surface as well, that kickstand for example is very helpful and the screen is great (retina i believe). Neither to i think Apple is perfect, they have made a lot of mistakes just lately, the price increase on their devices is one, the failure of the earlier keyboards is another. No one is perfect and i think it comes down to personal preference.

I probably could do away with MacOS but i really like it, Mojave is my favourite so far. Saying that tho i do use the Mac for things like Pixelmator Pro, iMove and some games like Two Point Hospital. I like to be able to edit photos on the iPad Pro but also on the Mac when i'm in the home office.

Something for on the go would be a great benefit like the Retina Macbook or the Macbook Air! The Pro would probably be a bit overkill for me. Apple haven't updated the Retina Macbook yet so buying that would be a bad move considering it never got an update last year (which i'm surprised about to be honest).

Dave, whilst I appreciate these were your personal findings the simple truth is you would of said the same about any windows laptop/2 in 1 even if it had been 3 times more powerful than the best MBP.

You simply did not enjoy your W10 experience but this has little to do with the hardware and given your attempts of trying to use it like a mobile OS compounded the issues.

Whilst we can debate all day that the simplicity of use of a IPP is also its Achilles heel it boils down to what you prefer to use and that's fine.

Whilst I have the benefit of following, reading and replying to your posts over the months on several threads I clearly understand what you tried to achieve but it does a disservice to other casual readers to take your recent summation on face value even though you did purchase a surface device.

As I said before the IPP is a good device for your modest needs but it has taken you and us several months to bottom this out.

Even now for you to say the surface device is a bad tablet based on the few apps you use is a gross simplification and to think a surface device is water down PC is worse and could not be further than the truth

I glad you have found finally a conclusion and that I and others were happy to assist along your path of discovery. I am however somewhat disappointed in your final summation of events based on a few points vs a world of opportunity you did not explore or engage yet hang on to hopes that IPP may improve and get some fuller apps in the future.

I certainly sympathise, change is hard and familiarity is almost addictive and you gave it your best shot

 

[mj_]

The 3rd gen keyboard is suppose to be better, however the 12” still has the butterfly keyboard that was prone to failing.

Yes, the 2017 keyboard is prone to failing. But so is the 2018 keyboard. Granted, the 2018 generation is slightly less likely to get annihilated by a speck of dust thanks to the underlying silicone membrane. However, once dirt and debris gets behind the membrane it is virtually impossible to get out again due to - you've guessed it - the membrane. And the 2018 generation keyboard is not covered by Apple's extended repair program so once things start going South you're screwed. Big time. With a 2017 model you simply return it to Apple to receive a brand-new keyboard and battery.

Buying one know would mean buying one of the two only Apple laptops in their current line-up (the other being the 13" nTB MacBook Pro) that you will be able to use for at least four years without having to worry about an $800 repair bill due to a failing e-key. I wouldn't touch a 2018 generation MacBook/MacBook Air/MacBook Pro with a 10-foot pole if I were you.

 

[Dave245]

Dave, whilst I appreciate these were your personal findings the simple truth is you would of said the same about any windows laptop/2 in 1 even if it had been 3 times more powerful than the best MBP.

You simply did not enjoy your W10 experience but this has little to do with the hardware and given your attempts of trying to use it like a mobile OS compounded the issues.

Whilst we can debate all day that the simplicity of use of a IPP is also its Achilles heel it boils down to what you prefer to use and that's fine.

Whilst I have the benefit of following, reading and replying to your posts over the months on several threads I clearly understand what you tried to achieve but it does a disservice to other casual readers to take your recent summation on face value even though you did purchase a surface device.

As I said before the IPP is a good device for your modest needs but it has taken you and us several months to bottom this out.

Even now for you to say the surface device is a bad tablet based on the few apps you use is a gross simplification and to think a surface device is water down PC is worse and could not be further than the truth

I glad you have found finally a conclusion and that I and others were happy to assist along your path of discovery. I am however somewhat disappointed in your final summation of events based on a few points vs a world of opportunity you did not explore or engage yet hang on to hopes that IPP may improve and get some fuller apps in the future.

I certainly sympathise, change is hard and familiarity is almost addictive and you gave it your best shot

I really do appreciate the help and advice that you and others have given me over the last few months . It is a shame that I couldn’t love the Surface Pro and Windows 10. I am in no way wanting to put people off from buying the Surface, everyone has a different experience, idea and people should experience it for themselves, just like with Apple products.

I still use the Surface Pro 6, I still have it I haven’t sold it or anything, it still sits here on my desk. It’s just that I find that I reach more for my iPad Pro and iMac than I do before the Surface. I may sell it further down the line or I may keep it as a machine to play my Windows games and as a machine to tinker about with from time to time.

 

[Dave245]

Yes, the 2017 keyboard is prone to failing. But so is the 2018 keyboard. Granted, the 2018 generation is slightly less likely to get annihilated by a speck of dust thanks to the underlying silicone membrane. However, once dirt and debris gets behind the membrane it is virtually impossible to get out again due to - you've guessed it - the membrane. And the 2018 generation keyboard is not covered by Apple's extended repair program so once things start going South you're screwed. Big time. With a 2017 model you simply return it to Apple to receive a brand-new keyboard and battery.

Buying one know would mean buying one of the two only Apple laptops in their current line-up (the other being the 13" nTB MacBook Pro) that you will be able to use for at least four years without having to worry about an $800 repair bill due to a failing e-key. I wouldn't touch a 2018 generation MacBook/MacBook Air/MacBook Pro with a 10-foot pole if I were you.

The issue is that we don’t know how many of the 3rd gen are failing, will Apple add it to the current replacement program? If there are enough failures to warrant it yes.

The issue I have is that coming on these type of forums skew the numbers, most people only post when they have an issue, for example how many people have not had an issue with the 3rd gen vs those that have? We simply can’t say because most people don’t post on this type of forum, this can then mean that issues get way overblown.

Yes Apple should of fixed it a while back when they had the figures for the 1st gen keyboard failures.

It will be interesting to see what Apple does next with these machines, including the MacBook, maybe a redesign later this year since it’s 4 years old.

 

[mj_]

The issue is that we don’t know how many of the 3rd gen are failing, will Apple add it to the current replacement program? If there are enough failures to warrant it yes.

I hate to disappoint you but there is only one way Apple is going to expand the replacement program to include the 2018 generation: if they face a class action and are about to get convicted. Then, only then, will they consider adding the 2018 generation to the replacement program (or more likely issue a new one for the 2018 generation). Otherwise they are simply going to sit it out because like every single corporation Apple never acts. Apple only reacts to outside pressure and only if the pressure is too high to ignore. Otherwise simply doing nothing and pretending the problem doesn't exist is the cheaper option for them.

Until then they will continue lying to, deceiving, and cheating the public and its customers.

 

[Bodie CI5]

[...]it does a disservice to other casual readers to take your recent summation on face value even though you did purchase a surface device.

On the other hand, the same ‘disservice’ could be said to be made when whitewashing over the many problems the various Surface devices have.

 

[SteveJUAE]

On the other hand, the same ‘disservice’ could be said to be made when whitewashing over the many problems the various Surface devices have.

Glad you agree

 

[deepakvrao]

I hate to disappoint you but there is only one way Apple is going to expand the replacement program to include the 2018 generation: if they face a class action and are about to get convicted. Then, only then, will they consider adding the 2018 generation to the replacement program (or more likely issue a new one for the 2018 generation). Otherwise they are simply going to sit it out because like every single corporation Apple never acts. Apple only reacts to outside pressure and only if the pressure is too high to ignore. Otherwise simply doing nothing and pretending the problem doesn't exist is the cheaper option for them.

Until then they will continue lying to, deceiving, and cheating the public and its customers.

Is there a replacement program for the 2017 MB 12? I have one with a keyboard issue. I have applecare, but if they have an official replacement program, I guess there would be less arguments about getting a new keyboard.

 

[afir93]

Which is why now is the best time to get one! And that is no joke.

With a possible upgrade, the 12" MacBook is going to receive not only the 2018 generation butterfly keyboard that is just as crappy and sensitive to dust and debris but not covered by the repair program! Once it breaks, and it will definitely start acting up sooner or later, you're looking at a several hundred dollar repair bill. Plus, it will almost certainly get the dreaded T2 chip that is causing a huge plethora of issues on the iMac Pro, the MacBook Pro, the MacBook Air, and now also the Mac Mini. And last but not least it is most likely also going to be more expensive, because that has been Apple's ultimate solution to fight plummeting sales.

Frankly I couldn't disagree more. The 3rd-gen butterfly keyboards significantly decreased the failure rates thanks to the new membrane mechanism. The issue isn't gone entirely, but for someone worried about running into these issues at some point in the future, it's absolutely the more reasonable choice to wait till the 12" MacBooks have gotten the new 3rd-gen aswell as they are much less likely to run into any stuck or non-functional keys later on.

The 2018 MBP/As aren't included in the keyboard replacement program yet. But it's easily conceivable that they'll be added at some point; none of them have even left their one year of warranty yet so it's not like the replacement program would have saved any 2018 owners from an expensive repair bill until now anyway. If you look at for example the staingate replacement program, then you'll see that the new respective models have all been added after a while.

You're also acting like the T2 chip is the root of all evil when in fact it has a lot of minor nice-to-have features. If your model is affected by the not-very-widespread kernel panics, what's stopping you from just exchanging it/bringing it in for servicing during the one year of warranty in which these issues will most certainly surface? Personally I haven't had any T2 issues with my 2018 MBP (which is the norm, not the exception) and I like the additional security and conveniences that it adds.


Honestly, now is quite possibly the worst time to buy a 12" MB unless you get a really good deal for one. You're just missing out on so much. A faster Amberlake chip (which is already out, btw) which should bring it almost on-par with the 2018 MBAs performance-wise in a significantly smaller form factor than the MBA, the SSD speed upgrades (and possibly higher-capacity options), Bluetooth 5.0, T2 chip for all the stuff it adds, an improved keyboard with a lower failure rate and maybe a better typing experience, possibly a better screen with TrueTone and Touch ID and speaker/microphone improvements...

I mean, even if you genuinely believe that the current 12" MBs are a better choice than the hopefully soon-to-be-released 2019 ones, then you have to admit that now is still not the best time to get one since the 2017 ones will plummet in price one the 2019 ones release. Frankly, I'd advise everyone who's on the edge of buying one to wait at the very least until the rumored March event which is at most 6 weeks away now, if not until WWDC if we haven't seen new MBs in March, if you don't absolutely need one right now. If you're underwhelmed or dissatisfied with the new ones, just buy the 2017 ones for a better price by then. Otherwise you might regret pulling the trigger too early because you're missing out on either a better price or a great number of improvements.
[doublepost=1549628272][/doublepost]

Is there a replacement program for the 2017 MB 12? I have one with a keyboard issue. I have applecare, but if they have an official replacement program, I guess there would be less arguments about getting a new keyboard.

Yes there is. If you have an Apple Store or authorized service provider nearby, you should just be able to bring it in and get it serviced without much questions asked.

 

[EugW]

Frankly I couldn't disagree more. The 3rd-gen butterfly keyboards significantly decreased the failure rates thanks to the new membrane mechanism. The issue isn't gone entirely, but for someone worried about running into these issues at some point in the future, it's absolutely the more reasonable choice to wait till the 12" MacBooks have gotten the new 3rd-gen aswell as they are much less likely to run into any stuck or non-functional keys later on.

The 2018 MBP/As aren't included in the keyboard replacement program yet. But it's easily conceivable that they'll be added at some point; none of them have even left their one year of warranty yet so it's not like the replacement program would have saved any 2018 owners from an expensive repair bill until now anyway. If you look at for example the staingate replacement program, then you'll see that the new respective models have all been added after a while.

Personally I'd just wait if possible and then decide at the next MacBook update.

You're also acting like the T2 chip is the root of all evil when in fact it has a lot of minor nice-to-have features. If your model is affected by the not-very-widespread kernel panics, what's stopping you from just exchanging it/bringing it in for servicing during the one year of warranty in which these issues will most certainly surface? Personally I haven't had any T2 issues with my 2018 MBP (which is the norm, not the exception) and I like the additional security and conveniences that it adds.

I am very, very happy I do not have the T2 chip in my iMac and my MacBook.

The T2 chip is not the root of all evil, but it is plagued by many demons nonetheless. Exchanging it is likely not truly addressing most of the issues, because much of it is software / OS related, sometimes in combination with third party software or devices.

 

[mj_]

Frankly I couldn't disagree more. The 3rd-gen butterfly keyboards significantly decreased the failure rates thanks to the new membrane mechanism. The issue isn't gone entirely, but for someone worried about running into these issues at some point in the future, it's absolutely the more reasonable choice to wait till the 12" MacBooks have gotten the new 3rd-gen aswell as they are much less likely to run into any stuck or non-functional keys later on.

This is probably the key issue we disagree on. Your point of view is that the new redesigned keyboard has lower failure rates and is thus the more reasonable choice. And I understand your point, I really do. However, from an engineering point of view I strongly disagree with the way Apple "fixed" the problem. The underlying issue is a design flaw, or rather a design characteristic. The switches are so tiny and offer so little travel and wiggle room that debris or even a single speck of dust can wedge itself in there for good and kill the mechanism. And while adding a membrane reduces the probability of dust and dirt entering the sensitive area underneath the key near the switches it also greatly reduces the probability of dust and dirt ever leaving that area again. I would consider it a solution if the switch was hermetically sealed, however in its current design the membrane is wide open at the top. Thus, the keyboard is still broken by design and all that Apple has achieved by adding the membrane is to reduce the probability of it breaking during the warranty period. Granted, if that is the way you approach your computer purchases (and I know many people who do) then by all means, go nuts. However, if you expect your premium Apple product that you've purchased at a premium price to last longer than the single year of standard warranty or even the three years of extended AppleCare+ warranty then I would very strongly advise against any Butterfly keyboard laptop. Because with those switches you are practically guaranteed to lose a key or two sooner or later because, again: all it needs is a single speck of dust. And there are millions of specks in the air all around you at any given time.

And regarding the T2 chip, I'm with @EugW on this one. The T2 chip is not the root of all evil but it has been the root of many problems without adding any real benefits ever since it was first introduced. From not being able to boot your Mac from an external device to bricking an expensive iMac Pro to OS crashes that Apple still has failed to address after more than a year to issues with external audio hardware rendering T2-equipped devices practically useless for musicians. And to be honest there is not a single "feature" that could not have either been implemented in a different more open way or that is not already available otherwise (for example the AES hardware encryption/decryption engine present in every single Intel processor produced in the last 8 years, or the hardware video decoder units present in every single GPU produced in the last, oh, I don't know, 8 years or so?). However, Apple being Apple, they've decided to reinvent the wheel and implement all that in a single chip of their own design, which gives them full control over what video codec your Mac will support and what security feature it will offer. It's embarrassing that you need to install Windows 10 on your Mac to take full advantage of your Intel CPU's and GPU's video decoding capabilities because Apple chose not to support them and implement their own less capable less sophisticated version thereof instead.

I honestly don't see a single benefit for end-users but a lot of added leverage for Apple. For example: now that the T2 features an embedded SSD controller Apple can save tons of money by adding cheap dumb flash SSD storage instead of sophisticated full-featured SSDs, and then sell it at an even higher price than before because, well, Apple. In my eyes the T2 chip is nothing but another way for Apple to squeeze even more money out of their Mac line-up. It offers no real benefits, it causes lots of issues right now, and it has the potential to hold users hostage in the long run. I really don't see why anyone in their right mind would actually want that.

I mean, even if you genuinely believe that the current 12" MBs are a better choice than the hopefully soon-to-be-released 2019 ones, then you have to admit that now is still not the best time to get one since the 2017 ones will plummet in price one the 2019 ones release. Frankly, I'd advise everyone who's on the edge of buying one to wait at the very least until the rumored March event which is at most 6 weeks away now, if not until WWDC if we haven't seen new MBs in March, if you don't absolutely need one right now. If you're underwhelmed or dissatisfied with the new ones, just buy the 2017 ones for a better price by then. Otherwise you might regret pulling the trigger too early because you're missing out on either a better price or a great number of improvements.

This I actually agree with. You're absolutely right, no arguments there.

 

[Dave245]

Personally I'd just wait if possible and then decide at the next MacBook update

Which is likely to be when? they haven't updated it in a while, maybe they will remove it altogether? or maybe they will redesign it, after all it has been 4 years since the original. The issue is that the new Macbook Air is now a little cheaper than the 12" Macbook and has better specs (all be it not by much).

 

[afir93]

Which is likely to be when? they haven't updated it in a while, maybe they will remove it altogether? or maybe they will redesign it, after all it has been 4 years since the original. The issue is that the new Macbook Air is now a little cheaper than the 12" Macbook and has better specs (all be it not by much).

Ming-Chi Kuo had a report last year where he predicted updated 12" MacBooks and new iMacs with "significant display improvements" for a fall event, alongside the new Mac mini and MBA that we actually got. So my guess is that they were delayed for some reason and are still coming, and probably soon. If it really is a delay then the rumored March event (where we are rumored to also see new iPads and iPad minis, aswell as last but not least AirPower) would be a likely date for an announcement. Though I suppose it's also possible that they are storing up these announcements for new Macs until they can announce the new Mac Pro, whenever this will be (could be next month, could be WWDC, could be October or even be delayed into next year, not many rumors thus far...), or that they are working on a redesign for the MacBook and it's taking longer because of that.

The Amberlake chips from Intel that succeed the ones currently in the 2017 MacBooks are already out since last October or so. They are even a slightly more significant improvement this time around since they finally seem to support Thunderbolt 3, which means we might finally get TB3 support in the MacBooks this year.
[doublepost=1549639223][/doublepost]

This is probably the key issue we disagree on. Your point of view is that the new redesigned keyboard has lower failure rates and is thus the more reasonable choice. And I understand your point, I really do. However, from an engineering point of view I strongly disagree with the way Apple "fixed" the problem. The underlying issue is a design flaw, or rather a design characteristic. The switches are so tiny and offer so little travel and wiggle room that debris or even a single speck of dust can wedge itself in there for good and kill the mechanism. And while adding a membrane reduces the probability of dust and dirt entering the sensitive area underneath the key near the switches it also greatly reduces the probability of dust and dirt ever leaving that area again. I would consider it a solution if the switch was hermetically sealed, however in its current design the membrane is wide open at the top. Thus, the keyboard is still broken by design and all that Apple has achieved by adding the membrane is to reduce the probability of it breaking during the warranty period. Granted, if that is the way you approach your computer purchases (and I know many people who do) then by all means, go nuts. However, if you expect your premium Apple product that you've purchased at a premium price to last longer than the single year of standard warranty or even the three years of extended AppleCare+ warranty then I would very strongly advise against any Butterfly keyboard laptop. Because with those switches you are practically guaranteed to lose a key or two sooner or later because, again: all it needs is a single speck of dust. And there are millions of specks in the air all around you at any given time.

And regarding the T2 chip, I'm with @EugW on this one. The T2 chip is not the root of all evil but it has been the root of many problems without adding any real benefits ever since it was first introduced. From not being able to boot your Mac from an external device to bricking an expensive iMac Pro to OS crashes that Apple still has failed to address after more than a year to issues with external audio hardware rendering T2-equipped devices practically useless for musicians. And to be honest there is not a single "feature" that could not have either been implemented in a different more open way or that is not already available otherwise (for example the AES hardware encryption/decryption engine present in every single Intel processor produced in the last 8 years, or the hardware video decoder units present in every single GPU produced in the last, oh, I don't know, 8 years or so?). However, Apple being Apple, they've decided to reinvent the wheel and implement all that in a single chip of their own design, which gives them full control over what video codec your Mac will support and what security feature it will offer. It's embarrassing that you need to install Windows 10 on your Mac to take full advantage of your Intel CPU's and GPU's video decoding capabilities because Apple chose not to support them and implement their own less capable less sophisticated version thereof instead.

I honestly don't see a single benefit for end-users but a lot of added leverage for Apple. For example: now that the T2 features an embedded SSD controller Apple can save tons of money by adding cheap dumb flash SSD storage instead of sophisticated full-featured SSDs, and then sell it at an even higher price than before because, well, Apple. In my eyes the T2 chip is nothing but another way for Apple to squeeze even more money out of their Mac line-up. It offers no real benefits, it causes lots of issues right now, and it has the potential to hold users hostage in the long run. I really don't see why anyone in their right mind would actually want that.


This I actually agree with. You're absolutely right, no arguments there.

Good points, I appreciate the comprehensive answer. Makes me wonder if Apple could theoretically fix the Butterfly keyboards entirely by making the membrane hermetically sealed as you say, or if that would come with too many problems of its own and would not be technically feasible either.

 

[sky87]

Which is why now is the best time to get one! And that is no joke.

With a possible upgrade, the 12" MacBook is going to receive not only the 2018 generation butterfly keyboard that is just as crappy and sensitive to dust and debris but not covered by the repair program! Once it breaks, and it will definitely start acting up sooner or later, you're looking at a several hundred dollar repair bill. Plus, it will almost certainly get the dreaded T2 chip that is causing a huge plethora of issues on the iMac Pro, the MacBook Pro, the MacBook Air, and now also the Mac Mini. And last but not least it is most likely also going to be more expensive, because that has been Apple's ultimate solution to fight plummeting sales.

I've looked long and hard at getting a 2017 12" Macbook and have nearly pulled the trigger on buying one a few times (added to cart but not checked out). Unfortunately the gen 2 butterfly keyboard is a dealbreaker for me due to the noise. I have attempted typing on both a 12" MB and 13" MBP/Air in store and the noise level difference with my typing speed/force is significant.

So I'll be waiting and hoping that the 12" MB gets an update to the gen 3 butterfly keyboard...

(I have a 2018 13" MBP which has both a T2 chip and a gen 3 butterfly keyboard and no issues so far...)

 

[mj_]

I haven't typed on the new 2018 generation Butterfly keyboards yet and haven't heard one either, but I've been told that they are much quieter indeed. Then again I've noticed that my fingers adjusted after a while, and my typing got much quieter on the 2016 and later 2017 gen keyboard over time. But I definitely understand if the keyboard is considered too loud. I get annoyed by it too when I have to use it on the couch while my wife is trying to take a nap.
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Good points, I appreciate the comprehensive answer. Makes me wonder if Apple could theoretically fix the Butterfly keyboards entirely by making the membrane hermetically sealed as you say, or if that would come with too many problems of its own and would not be technically feasible either.

Excellent question. I can see several problems with a hermetically sealed keyboard switch, among others heat and condensation. It might not be that easy but fortunately that's for Apple to figure out

 

[waquzy]

Which is likely to be when? they haven't updated it in a while, maybe they will remove it altogether? or maybe they will redesign it, after all it has been 4 years since the original. The issue is that the new Macbook Air is now a little cheaper than the 12" Macbook and has better specs (all be it not by much).

Best option and value for money is still the 2017 nTB MacBook Pro imo. I have had it for 7 months now and it has been flawless. I highly recommend it.

PS: John Lewis is currently running a few deals on all MacBooks, like 18 months for 0% interest. That’s not bad at all. They also have some well cheap 2017 MacBooks that have been reduced, might be worth looking into...

 

[Dave245]

Best option and value for money is still the 2017 nTB MacBook Pro imo. I have had it for 7 months now and it has been flawless. I highly recommend it.

PS: John Lewis is currently running a few deals on all MacBooks, like 18 months for 0% interest. That’s not bad at all. They also have some well cheap 2017 MacBooks that have been reduced, might be worth looking into...

Isn’t the Touch Bar version of 2018 not much more than the none Touch Bar 2017? the MacBook Air is only a couple hundred less than the Touch Bar 13” 2018, trouble is for someone like me it probably isn’t worth it considering I won’t use all that power. At most I edit photos in Pixelmator Pro as part of a hobby.

Quad core in the 13” is good but again it just comes down to numbers and whether I would use all that is a different story.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I get a discount through some work I did a while back. The Corporate Perks discount gives me 10% off Mac’s.

 

[radiologyman]

Macbook 12 allows multitasking and is so portable that it replaced iPad and even Iphone for me.

 

[Apple_Robert]

For those who bought the early to mid 2017 MB, did it come with Sierra or High Sierra? I have seen some video on the tube that appear to show both.
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Macbook 12 allows multitasking and is so portable that it replaced iPad and even Iphone for me.

Replaced your iPhone? You made need to go in for an X-ray, as that doesn't sound normal.

I was going to wait and see what the new iPads looked like but, after getting a good deal on a new 2017 MB, I can't see spending much more for an iPad, when the MB is much more versatile,

 

[EugW]

For those who bought the early to mid 2017 MB, did it come with Sierra or High Sierra? I have seen some video on the tube that appear to show both.

Like the 2017 iMacs, the 2017 MacBooks came with Sierra. High Sierra had not yet been released.

They are all mid-2017 BTW. There is no early 2017 model.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Macbook 12 allows multitasking and is so portable that it replaced iPad and even Iphone for me.

It replaced your phone?

Do you never go anywhere or to any situations where you need a phone or some messaging or apps but you don’t want to bring a 12” MacBook along?

 

[radiologyman]

It replaced your phone?

Do you never go anywhere or to any situations where you need a phone or some messaging or apps but you don’t want to bring a 12” MacBook along?

I should have said Macbook replaced interacting with my Iphone when I am next to Macbook, whether at home or traveling. I go to internet, consume media, text/make phone calls/skype etc from the Macbook