Who is keeping 15" Air?

[nicolasmasset]

I have a degree in neuroscience... the PWM frequency of 15kHz is way beyond anything the human eye can perceive. The neurons in your retina have a firing (spike) rate way below even 1kHz and typically no more than a few hundred Hz. The PWM frequency doesn't even make it past the first layer of your visual system.

What's more likely happening is you're sensitive to the extremely high contrast of the Mini LED displays. Especially with Apple's industry-leading antireflective coating, you have parts of the display that are like black holes for light with almost zero brightness pure black, with other parts running at 500 nits or more. That might cause eye strain if your pupils open wide to compensate, making the white parts too bright.

You can easily test that theory by installing BetterDisplay and using the Image Adjustment feature to increase the overall "brightness" of the screen (in old TV terminology) so that black levels are raised and become grey / slightly off black.

I don’t know what truly causes my discomfort but I do know there’s an entire forum of people having issues so there must be something going on. Ledstrain.org

Wouldn’t just lowering the brightness solve some of the contrast issue you’re suggesting?

Another interesting read on reddit disagrees that 1khz is the top limit for sensitivity:

“However, according to a recent 2020 study by Brown et al. (2020), they found that participants with light sensitivity are able to detect light changes even at a fast PWM hertz of 11 Khz. Furthermore, another recent study by Kang et al. (2023) found that participants with light sensitivity are still able to detect light flicker even at a fast PWM hertz of over 18 Khz.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/13jpd86

All I know is the m2 airs are far calmer to look at for my eyes than the m2 pro’s.

 

[kp98077]

I don’t know what truly causes my discomfort but I do know there’s an entire forum of people having issues so there must be something going on. Ledstrain.org

Wouldn’t just lowering the brightness solve some of the contrast issue you’re suggesting?

Another interesting read on reddit disagrees that 1khz is the top limit for sensitivity:

“However, according to a recent 2020 study by Brown et al. (2020), they found that participants with light sensitivity are able to detect light changes even at a fast PWM hertz of 11 Khz. Furthermore, another recent study by Kang et al. (2023) found that participants with light sensitivity are still able to detect light flicker even at a fast PWM hertz of over 18 Khz.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/13jpd86

All I know is the m2 airs are far calmer to look at for my eyes than the m2 pro’s.

Yeah I get all that - but to me I love the air but the text is not crisp and that drives my nuts 😂. Or let’s say, as crisp as the M2 pro.

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

Wouldn’t just lowering the brightness solve some of the contrast issue you’re suggesting?

In many lighting situations it wouldn't, because your pupils will just adjust to the new overall level of brightness. You'll still have areas that are like black holes and other areas that are very bright spots. In some cases it would help though for sure. For example if you're in a bright room, lowering the brightness of the display will reduce the perceived brightness of the brightest spots because your pupils will stay the same size. On the other hand, if you're in a dark room, it might not make as much difference because your pupils will adjust to the new level. Just like aperture on a camera.

I read the Reddit article you linked and checked the sources, thank you. It is of course true to say that if you make a large, fast eye movement while looking at a flickering light, it is possible that you may be able to see the flickering even at high frequencies. The effect is similar to the ghosts you see when scrolling on lower refresh rate screens, but much, much more slight. How visible the ghosts would be would depend on the distance of the eye movement and the frequency.

However that's quite different from the situation where you're staring at the screen constantly, usually either not moving your eyes or moving them relatively small distances, e.g. half way across the screen. Even if you're moving your eyes at a very fast 300 degrees per second and the PWM frequency is 15kHz, you'll see a ghost every 0.02 degrees. The pixel resolution of your eyes is around 0.01 degrees, so you might *just* be able to see the ghosts if you're trained. Would that cause headaches though? It doesn't seem very likely to me...

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

You ended up with the 14 m2 right? I’m listening to the neuroscientist lol - given I can’t decide!

The neuroscientist can't decide yet either 😆 Heavily leaning towards the 15" Air right now though. I like the big screen, ergonomics, better keyboard, the midnight color, and the weight. I don't need the power of the Pro for most things I do right now. I have a fast desktop PC at home and the Air is plenty good enough for remoting in. If I was traveling a lot or didn't have a desktop available, I'd be going for the Pro for sure... hope your decision becomes clear soon!

 

[kp98077]

The neuroscientist can't decide yet either 😆 Heavily leaning towards the 15" Air right now though. I like the big screen, ergonomics, better keyboard, the midnight color, and the weight. I don't need the power of the Pro for most things I do right now. I have a fast desktop PC at home and the Air is plenty good enough for remoting in. If I was traveling a lot or didn't have a desktop available, I'd be going for the Pro for sure... hope your decision becomes clear soon!

Or will everyone jump in the m3 14 wagon soon enough lol 😂

 

[nicolasmasset]

Yeah I get all that - but to me I love the air but the text is not crisp and that drives my nuts 😂. Or let’s say, as crisp as the M2 pro.

Definitely not as crisp!

 

[kp98077]

Definitely not as crisp!

Ya and that part drives me crazy 😜

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

You guys running at 2x scaling on the Air? Much crisper. It’s the middle resolution in the display settings.

 

[jeffg819]

I turned off font smoothing. Made a noticeable difference.

 

[kp98077]

I turned off font smoothing. Made a noticeable difference.

all these tweaks and 1” more screen Is worth it I’m staring to wonder 😃😅

 

[juanmaasecas]

i still have a MacBook Pro 15” 2017 I basically just use to export pictures from Lightroom and keep them organised.

I have an iPad 11” M2 in which I edit the pictures most of the time.

I was thinking of getting a new MacBook Pro with the M2 because I thought they were coming in 3nm, but as they’re not, I’ll stay with my MacBook a bit longer, and replace the battery and repaste cpu/gpu.

But when I decide to buy the new one I’ll have the same thoughts as I have now: is the pro worth it for Lightroom/capture one? I’d love the better screen, but will it be noticeably quicker editing/exporting pictures?

I’m used to 15” and I wouldn’t like to go smaller, and the pro 16” is too thick and too expensive.

I’d love the hdmi port though, the sd slot I don’t care as I use Cfexpress 99% of the time.

Update on this.
I cleaned my mbp 15 2017 and replaced the battery (it was swollen and failing) and it’s much faster now. Soon I’ll repaste it and it will improve a bit more.
I feel the new series have shortcomings I don’t like.
I’d love to have my design of mbp (15” at least, thin) but with the new M3 pro and hdmi (and I like the touch bar).
I feel I don’t want to go 16 because it’s too thick.
And I don’t want to go Air because I want 32gb ram in my next computer, I want the mini led screen and the hdmi.
I think with these repairs I can wait 1-2 more years and see if there’s a redesign…

 

[ascender]

Its still weird when I go to pick up the 15" Air and its so light - I think having used a 16" MBP int he past, I just expect something that looks this big to be much heavier.

 

[cramazing]

Its still weird when I go to pick up the 15" Air and its so light - I think having used a 16" MBP int he past, I just expect something that looks this big to be much heavier.

The 16in is a damn brick, I've compare it to my 14" MBP and 15" MBA and both feels very light after holding the 16"

 

[Surfsalot]

It's called AIR lol

 

[ctjack]

Yeah I get all that - but to me I love the air but the text is not crisp and that drives my nuts 😂. Or let’s say, as crisp as the M2 pro.

Can you share your experience if you have external 4K monitor at around 27 inch? Bought one, can't unsee not crisp and fuzzy text when compared to M1 Air and M1 Pro MBP 14.

 

[ctjack]

However that's quite different from the situation where you're staring at the screen constantly, usually either not moving your eyes or moving them relatively small distances, e.g. half way across the screen. Even if you're moving your eyes at a very fast 300 degrees per second and the PWM frequency is 15kHz, you'll see a ghost every 0.02 degrees. The pixel resolution of your eyes is around 0.01 degrees, so you might *just* be able to see the ghosts if you're trained. Would that cause headaches though? It doesn't seem very likely to me...

I think it is the human's nature. The eyeball itself according to the studies you quoted, I believe is fully capable of registering the flicker. But the brain cuts out to give the normal image - just like some TVs can upscale to 4k and increase FPS by adding more virtual frames.
At the end of the day, this eye registering so many flickers might pass a headache to the end user.

I believe that non of the for profit companies are there for human's health and best interest. There is one type of sausage that I like, but it needs to be dry aged and naturally smoked for 6 months. Anything faster than that would yield different taste and usually full of bad chemicals. Unfortunately, all the people selling this stufff can come up with one in 2-8 weeks period, which is impossible but they use tricks to increase the speed and non of them have interest to produce it naturally by waiting 6 month - so i end up making my own which is a hustle and i would have paid to not cook my own.

I am sure that Apple could come up with pwm/headache free healthy display for people but it is not in their best interests to do so.

Conclusion: if you want something to be done good then make it yourself. Unfortunately some of us are not in the business of making lcd panels - i would be curious to know if the CEOs are running custom models? Like Ferrari higher ups did have special limited editions of their cars - basically factory tuning, which was unavailable for mass sale until later when sold by grandkids/company decades later.

 

[kp98077]

Can you share your experience if you have external 4K monitor at around 27 inch? Bought one, can't unsee not crisp and fuzzy text when compared to M1 Air and M1 Pro MBP 14.

I don't use monitors.. except with the Lenovo

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

Can you share your experience if you have external 4K monitor at around 27 inch?

I have an M2 Air 15 and 4K 27" monitor. Text is sharp - when running at 2x scaling. At other scaling I see the halo artefacts from Apple silicon sharpening, but no different from the other M chips. Stick to 2x and it's fine.

 

[ctjack]

I have an M2 Air 15 and 4K 27" monitor. Text is sharp - when running at 2x scaling. At other scaling I see the halo artefacts from Apple silicon sharpening, but no different from the other M chops. Stick to 2x and it's fine.

Awesome, glad to see that i am not alone. But 2x is Full HD which leaves me less room for my stuff? It almost seems at this point that my old 2K was suited better for productivity work if i want to have more than 1 window.

 

[kp98077]

I'll be returning mine because of the slow trackpad issue and the poor thermals. May try again with M3 if they fix the trackpad speed. But the old slow refresh LCD isn't great anyway, and it's overpriced and heavy for what you get once you upgrade the RAM and SSD to something sensible.

Also returned my M2 Pro 14" but only because the keyboard was faulty (arrow keys only worked if pressed dead center, and all keys too heavy). Loved it otherwise.

What's next? Not sure. Eyeing up the Lenovo Slim Pro 9i 14, or may try another M2 Pro 14". Or I'll just wait for M3.

so there in no fix for this slow trackpad issue? I think I am having that on the new 15 air. :/

 

[mattopotamus]

I'm really loving the extra screen real estate. I feel like I can actually properly multi-task (use the highest resolution). I always dreaded having to do serious work with the 13" screen because it felt so cramped when having multiple windows open. It's already been a game changer when I am not docked up to an external monitor.

 

[ascender]

I'm really loving the extra screen real estate. I feel like I can actually properly multi-task (use the highest resolution). I always dreaded having to do serious work with the 13" screen because it felt so cramped when having multiple windows open. It's already been a game changer when I am not docked up to an external monitor.

Definitely. This was one of the things I loved most about my 16" MBP. I even find the larger screen a much better second screen when using a monitor - I can have Fantastical and Todoist open on that for constant reference.

 

[kp98077]

The neuroscientist can't decide yet either 😆 Heavily leaning towards the 15" Air right now though. I like the big screen, ergonomics, better keyboard, the midnight color, and the weight. I don't need the power of the Pro for most things I do right now. I have a fast desktop PC at home and the Air is plenty good enough for remoting in. If I was traveling a lot or didn't have a desktop available, I'd be going for the Pro for sure... hope your decision becomes clear soon!

are you closer with a decision yet. ?

 

[kp98077]

I'm really loving the extra screen real estate. I feel like I can actually properly multi-task (use the highest resolution). I always dreaded having to do serious work with the 13" screen because it felt so cramped when having multiple windows open. It's already been a game changer when I am not docked up to an external monitor.

is that the "lcd" resolution?

 

[ilikewhey]

this is the longest buyer's remorse thread going so far lol