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Why a Mac costs more than a PC...
- Thread starter Giuly
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That pretty much sums it up.
I switched 4 years ago. I enjoy the Mac for what it is.
But now I'm building a 4-core AMD x4 cpu, gt240 vid card (~9600gt,) 4gb ram, 320hd, Windows Pro upgrade disc (procured thru academia,) case, 500W OCZ PS, DVD re-writer, Biostar MB with igpu, HDMI, HD sound for under $350.
You can't touch that pure power per $$$$ in the Mac world.
And I found a great deal on a 24" Acer 1080p HDMI monitor with built-in speakers for $128 out the door. Not as good as the 24" Apple display, but it's $772 less.
But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy my Mac. I'll have a Mac for the foreseeable future.
But I wanted to check out the games of today and didn't want to get an expensive Mac to do so. Plus wanted to run Windows software if I need to. ANd check out Win 7.
The upgrade from a $1200 iMac to a $1500 iMac is $300 for an ATI 4670 gpu instead of 320M igpu, 500gb more hard drive space and ....slightly faster cpu. I built the above computer for ~$40 more than that.
This doesn't mean that I won't update my iMac this fall. I very well may if they include a new iLife and some decent hardware upgrades. That is unless Windows 7 and the lure of cheap computing power converts me back.
Why a Mac Pro costs more than an equivalent PC:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117213
That's the chip in the $2499 Mac Pro. $300. Are we really getting $2200 worth of computer around that Xeon? Nope. Especially with three 1 GB chips taking up the 4 ram slots.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117213
That's the chip in the $2499 Mac Pro. $300. Are we really getting $2200 worth of computer around that Xeon? Nope. Especially with three 1 GB chips taking up the 4 ram slots.
Don't they use Gainstown CPUs? So for the 2.66GHz it would be the X5550. $860 if you order 1000 pcs. from Intel. Or $1000 if you order on NewEgg.
The 2.26GHz one is $370. But your argument is right, but somewhat not. $1000 for a 2.66GHz dual core Mac Mini. How many people would buy that one if a MacPro starts at $1500? Nearly none. How many people would buy an 21.5" iMac? You guessed it, nearly none. How many money can you make off an $2500 MacPro a month if you use it as a tool for work? >$2500, easily, if you know what you're doing. And that's what's they're intended for, it's for Pros, as the name states. If you can make the same money if you only supply the top 10% of the Mac users with MacPros as bargaining it for $1500, supply everyone and loose all MacMini and iMac 21.5" customers, why would you do that?
Not in quad core model as Gainestown is DP version and it would be wasted in UP version. The differences are that Gainestown carries dual QPI which is needed for dual-CPU configurations and lower TDP.
The quad core Mac Pro is horribly overpriced. Octo is somehow reasonable because dual socket motherboards are harder to find and cost more and DP CPUs cost more as well
Nope, Apple uses the cheaper 3500 series in their quad towers:
Apple.com said:
http://www.apple.com/macpro/specs.html
highway robbery! The dual quads are price competitive, but the single quads are a serious rip-off. As for the Apple's thinking, I couldn't tell you what that is anymore. It isn't my fault that Apple sells a core2duo mini for $700. It will be Apple's fault if my whole company (like many other creative companies in my area) moves to the PC on our next software upgrade cycle.
We do just fine making money, thanks. But that's no reason to bend over and take it from Apple on their ridiculously priced single quads.
Another person telling me it's a rip off because "it's for pros". Bull. Pros don't like to be ripped off, either. The other macs in the line (except the mini) are decently priced for the Apple tax. But those quad towers - the Apple tax is almost half the value of the entire machine.
"The build quality is insane."
The original poster had me peeing my self laughing already. I already knew the rest of the post would be sticking his head up Job's backside.
The hardware and build quality is no better or worse than you find in the rest o the electronics industry. The OS is not the most advanced in the world. If that were the case the military would use it. They don't.
As for iLife, iWork and iTunes, the OP clearly doesn't have clue on reality. iLife, a bunch of apps that hardly anyone with any talent or skill would use. iWork, okay for basic word processing, small presentations. iTunes, the biggest piece of bloated rubbish there is. The only reason Apple give it away is because no-one would pay any money for it.
The original poster had me peeing my self laughing already. I already knew the rest of the post would be sticking his head up Job's backside.
The hardware and build quality is no better or worse than you find in the rest o the electronics industry. The OS is not the most advanced in the world. If that were the case the military would use it. They don't.
As for iLife, iWork and iTunes, the OP clearly doesn't have clue on reality. iLife, a bunch of apps that hardly anyone with any talent or skill would use. iWork, okay for basic word processing, small presentations. iTunes, the biggest piece of bloated rubbish there is. The only reason Apple give it away is because no-one would pay any money for it.
Is that a joke?
The build quality of the Mac lineup is far superior to any other computer I've used. The military is not required to use OS X just because its the "Most advanced OS"
The fact iLife is *Free* with a Mac, makes it great. What the OP is trying to say is that the PC has no equivalents as good as iLife for *free*
iTunes runs great and it's required if you have an iOS Device. It's the default music organizing program for Mac, just as Windows Media Player is to PC. Would you buy Windows Media Player? Probably not, but it does what it needs to do, just like iTunes.
Basically all the *free* Mac software that is provided is superior to the PC version of it.
I don't believe you...
I'd like to know what machines have "comparable build quality" to a MBP. The last time I went to Best Buy the laptop section was packed full of cheap-feeling plastic laptops. They bend and squeak under their own weight and have horrible-feeling trackpads/buttons. The feeling is like the difference between a Chevy Aveo and a BMW. I haven't seen another laptop that feels as high-quality as the macs. Have any suggestions (not that I'll ever buy a crappy Windows PC again hehe)?
I'd like to know what machines have "comparable build quality" to a MBP. The last time I went to Best Buy the laptop section was packed full of cheap-feeling plastic laptops. They bend and squeak under their own weight and have horrible-feeling trackpads/buttons. The feeling is like the difference between a Chevy Aveo and a BMW. I haven't seen another laptop that feels as high-quality as the macs. Have any suggestions (not that I'll ever buy a crappy Windows PC again hehe)?
Right, Apple sells the software you need to get stuff on the iPods. You rather want to think about it at least a couple of seconds before you start typing.
HP Envy stated before is intended to be a MacBookPro Clone, according to Gizmodo.
Just a bit cheaper (they 13" is much more expensive then a 13" MBP), just a bit inferior - they start $1700 (13" w/ Core2Duo(!)) and $1800 (15" i5). That's a quality PC laptop - but it has a little less battery runtime, a bit superior graphics and cost about the same (15") resp. much more (13").
Thinkpads are at least partially build of metal. And I guess that's the worst statement you can do on Macrumors.
HP Envy stated before is intended to be a MacBookPro Clone, according to Gizmodo.
Just a bit cheaper (they 13" is much more expensive then a 13" MBP), just a bit inferior - they start $1700 (13" w/ Core2Duo(!)) and $1800 (15" i5). That's a quality PC laptop - but it has a little less battery runtime, a bit superior graphics and cost about the same (15") resp. much more (13").
Never did I say it was. The reason I said that was to prove my point on how people would pay a small price to get iTunes if it was necessary.
Thinkpads are at least partially build of metal. And I guess that's the worst statement you can do on Macrumors.
HP Envy stated before is intended to be a MacBookPro Clone, according to Gizmodo.
Just a bit cheaper, just a bit inferior.
It's a crappy MacBook Pro clone and it looks, feels, and behaves like a crappy MacBook Pro clone. Buy it if you want it.
Obviously they wouldn't sell something like that. They would simply rename that piece of software and make it free. The people at Apple are not dumb.
The part about the military... Rolls Royce makes the best cars in the world. And the military don't use them. So they are not the best? Come on.
Doesn't the military [U.S. that is] also buy hammers for like $500?
I know of several people who are in the military; both enlisted and civilian [contractors]. They use Windows because most of the systems they access are Windows based systems. However, there's a HUGE push to get these all web enabled. When that happens, I've been told they're moving more towards other systems, Mac's included. As well as Linux, and in some cases Netbook type devices. A good number of the Meteorological systems are now Apache, Tomcat, and Coldfusion based. What were .ASP/IIS systems are moving toward other systems.
The U.S. Army has moved a good number of departments to Mac for a number of reasons, so the trend is changing. It's just slow...
As long as you don't klick on "iTunes Store", you don't even see the store. I don't get your point. Microsoft sells world's most expensive virus distribution software and camouflages it as an operating system, which is actually a trojan horse and downloads viruses as soon as you go online. At least according to your argumentation. If they had a Windows Media Player Store, it would drive you nuts as soon as you klick the Start button.
Uhh... What the hell are you talking about? "As long as you don't klick on "iTunes Store", you don't even see the store." So what? What exactly do mean here?
And that about Microsoft? You really lost me there.
Sorry, I mistook you as the guy who posted...
...and that gave it a whole different context.
@Giuly: I enjoyed this thread and hope it does get stickied. I have an old G4 Mini which I consider to be hobbled because it can't run Snow Leopard alongside the rest of my machines. I have an old 13" plastic Penryn Macbook which I don't feel has aged gracefully. I run it with an external 1TB firewire drive but I really should either upgrade the machine or at least upgrade the internal drive. I've never been interested in iMacs because I already own numerous LCD monitors and I don't want to buy the monitor and computer together... until now. There is a local shop that is selling a bunch of lease turn-in Intel iMacs for $799 and I'm somewhat tempted. I'm also excited to hear what Apple will announce in the coming days about new iMacs. I find the Mac Pro to be somewhat of an anachronism. A tower pc? I can see why you might need a tower machine, possibly to run all the computation for all of NASA but shouldn't all home computers be the size of a Mac Mini (or built into the screen like an iMac) or smaller by now?
I must agree with you on build quality. I've used Dell, HP and Acer in recent months and nothing compares to the build quality of my Apple gear. As for the OS, I must agree with you. I use XP SP3 at work and it is quite painful. I use Ubuntu 9.04 (at least I did until my iPad arrived) and it is painful compared to OS X.
Then there is the issue of what OS the military might use. I can tell you this, they skipped Vista altogether. I think the reason they don't use OS X has more to do with their (office) software requirements more than how "advanced" it is. For embedded use, there is a lot of evidence they are using Linux. Ever try to use cygwin to do cross development on Windows targeting some flavor of Unix? It's no fun and it shines a glaring light on the shortcomings of winDOS. OS X is Unix underneath. That means it is based on the most robust computing platform available.
Perhaps a good understanding of OS X is best given by Steve Jobs before he came back to Apple and while he still worked for Next. It's 30 minutes long but bear in mind when the video was produced what the rest of the computing landscape was like (in 1992!). Yes, OS X is the most "advanced" OS out when you combine its robust Unix features and well thought out ease of use. Sure I could gripe about the time it takes Apple to apply security patches or the occasional Kernel Panic I have seen but I'm very impressed with the way OS X gives me my familiar Unix Terminal when I want it, while at the same time providing me an uncluttered GUI for every day use that doesn't present me with an environment so dense with clickable items, dialog boxes and meaningless decisions it is difficult to get through the day without an unintended click (like windows).
TCO? We ran 5 pc's in our house. 1 Linux box and 4 windows boxes. I was called upon almost daily for "Daddy I can't print!" or "Daddy I can't get on the internet" o!r "Daddy it says I need to update direct x so I can play halflife 2!". I took 2 steps to alleviate these nonstop headaches. First, I got a game console (PS/2) and unceremoniously smashed all the pc game cd's. Then I started replacing pc's with Mac Minis. I still get the occasional request for support but not the daily litany of BS I once had to endure from owning pc's.
One example in particular is worth sharing. I bought an HP PSC 2510 and installed drivers so it could sit in the upstairs hallway between the kids' rooms and they could print to it wirelessly. Everything seemed fine for a few months, then it suddenly stopped working so I decided to download the latest drivers from HP. By then, I already owned one Mac and it never ever had trouble printing to the 2510 but my daughter's machine did. HP on the phone told me to uninstall and reinstall the driver over and over again until "I got lucky". What BS. They also told me their OS X driver was much better. Wow what an understatement. Lastly, when it was apparent I wasn't willing to spend dozens of hours recursively installing their drivers hoping to "get lucky" HP offered me a discount on a newer printer. I think not! The windows driver was a 700 meg download and required .net to work properly and was inherently unstable. It would often stop working and require uninstall and reinstall and registry edits along the way. The OS X driver for the same printer was a 30 meg download and was stable. Since then I've bought only Brother printers (because they list OS X and Linux support on the outside of the box) and avoided HP and their crappy software like the plague. I've never had a moment's trouble. I still have the PSC 2510 and it still works with all our Macs. With the exception of my daughter's school specified HP Tablet running Win XP (which can't print of course), there is not one windows box left standing in our house and good riddance.
Is Apple perfect? No. One only needs to experience the quirks of iTunes or the multiplying records produced by iSync to know all is not perfect. But Apple is the sort of outfit that observes its imperfections and works to chage those it deems a risk of impeding sales. And they have improved software immensely over the years. I have sent my kernel panics to Apple engineering and on more than one occasion I have seen my issues mentioned in the list of fixes in the very next turn of OS X.
Value. Is Mac hardware a rip-off? I would say it is mildly overpriced, based on the price of similar hardware but it delivers a superior end to end user experience: It is the cost of getting OS X. It is the cost of curated computing (on iThings including iPad, iPhone and iTouch). Go ahead if you like and get your $200 worth of parts and build up your 88 Ghz, 99 core, 12 terabyte windows box but at the end of the day you are faced with getting your support from a company up in Redmond, Wa. that doesn't want to talk to end users on the phone except to demand they prove they haven't stolen software. Want to convince yourself to buy Apple gear? Call Applecare and see if you are talking to somebody that a) doesn't care about you or their job or b) is more concerned about ditching you so they can take the next call or c) is suspicious that you are a thief or d) doesn't understand your native language or e) doesn't understand the equipment or software you are using. Of course none of these 5 nightmare scenarios will play out if you call Applecare. If you want to experience them, you will need to call Dell, HP or Microsoft.
Amazing that we can post all these objective observations and specific examples about the value of Apple stuff and still get accused of being blind. I think the blindness is more likely those who have never tried Mac stuff and make sweeping assumptions about how it works. I use both every day and can't wait to get free of my freeze-a-minute WinDOS box at the office and use a real computer at home, even if that real computer is a mere "giant iPod Touch" iPad.
I must agree with you on build quality. I've used Dell, HP and Acer in recent months and nothing compares to the build quality of my Apple gear. As for the OS, I must agree with you. I use XP SP3 at work and it is quite painful. I use Ubuntu 9.04 (at least I did until my iPad arrived) and it is painful compared to OS X.
Then there is the issue of what OS the military might use. I can tell you this, they skipped Vista altogether. I think the reason they don't use OS X has more to do with their (office) software requirements more than how "advanced" it is. For embedded use, there is a lot of evidence they are using Linux. Ever try to use cygwin to do cross development on Windows targeting some flavor of Unix? It's no fun and it shines a glaring light on the shortcomings of winDOS. OS X is Unix underneath. That means it is based on the most robust computing platform available.
Perhaps a good understanding of OS X is best given by Steve Jobs before he came back to Apple and while he still worked for Next. It's 30 minutes long but bear in mind when the video was produced what the rest of the computing landscape was like (in 1992!). Yes, OS X is the most "advanced" OS out when you combine its robust Unix features and well thought out ease of use. Sure I could gripe about the time it takes Apple to apply security patches or the occasional Kernel Panic I have seen but I'm very impressed with the way OS X gives me my familiar Unix Terminal when I want it, while at the same time providing me an uncluttered GUI for every day use that doesn't present me with an environment so dense with clickable items, dialog boxes and meaningless decisions it is difficult to get through the day without an unintended click (like windows).
TCO? We ran 5 pc's in our house. 1 Linux box and 4 windows boxes. I was called upon almost daily for "Daddy I can't print!" or "Daddy I can't get on the internet" o!r "Daddy it says I need to update direct x so I can play halflife 2!". I took 2 steps to alleviate these nonstop headaches. First, I got a game console (PS/2) and unceremoniously smashed all the pc game cd's. Then I started replacing pc's with Mac Minis. I still get the occasional request for support but not the daily litany of BS I once had to endure from owning pc's.
One example in particular is worth sharing. I bought an HP PSC 2510 and installed drivers so it could sit in the upstairs hallway between the kids' rooms and they could print to it wirelessly. Everything seemed fine for a few months, then it suddenly stopped working so I decided to download the latest drivers from HP. By then, I already owned one Mac and it never ever had trouble printing to the 2510 but my daughter's machine did. HP on the phone told me to uninstall and reinstall the driver over and over again until "I got lucky". What BS. They also told me their OS X driver was much better. Wow what an understatement. Lastly, when it was apparent I wasn't willing to spend dozens of hours recursively installing their drivers hoping to "get lucky" HP offered me a discount on a newer printer. I think not! The windows driver was a 700 meg download and required .net to work properly and was inherently unstable. It would often stop working and require uninstall and reinstall and registry edits along the way. The OS X driver for the same printer was a 30 meg download and was stable. Since then I've bought only Brother printers (because they list OS X and Linux support on the outside of the box) and avoided HP and their crappy software like the plague. I've never had a moment's trouble. I still have the PSC 2510 and it still works with all our Macs. With the exception of my daughter's school specified HP Tablet running Win XP (which can't print of course), there is not one windows box left standing in our house and good riddance.
Is Apple perfect? No. One only needs to experience the quirks of iTunes or the multiplying records produced by iSync to know all is not perfect. But Apple is the sort of outfit that observes its imperfections and works to chage those it deems a risk of impeding sales. And they have improved software immensely over the years. I have sent my kernel panics to Apple engineering and on more than one occasion I have seen my issues mentioned in the list of fixes in the very next turn of OS X.
Value. Is Mac hardware a rip-off? I would say it is mildly overpriced, based on the price of similar hardware but it delivers a superior end to end user experience: It is the cost of getting OS X. It is the cost of curated computing (on iThings including iPad, iPhone and iTouch). Go ahead if you like and get your $200 worth of parts and build up your 88 Ghz, 99 core, 12 terabyte windows box but at the end of the day you are faced with getting your support from a company up in Redmond, Wa. that doesn't want to talk to end users on the phone except to demand they prove they haven't stolen software. Want to convince yourself to buy Apple gear? Call Applecare and see if you are talking to somebody that a) doesn't care about you or their job or b) is more concerned about ditching you so they can take the next call or c) is suspicious that you are a thief or d) doesn't understand your native language or e) doesn't understand the equipment or software you are using. Of course none of these 5 nightmare scenarios will play out if you call Applecare. If you want to experience them, you will need to call Dell, HP or Microsoft.
Amazing that we can post all these objective observations and specific examples about the value of Apple stuff and still get accused of being blind. I think the blindness is more likely those who have never tried Mac stuff and make sweeping assumptions about how it works. I use both every day and can't wait to get free of my freeze-a-minute WinDOS box at the office and use a real computer at home, even if that real computer is a mere "giant iPod Touch" iPad.
Still, you and I have no proof of that. Only assumptions based on popularity.
But I digress - the reason so many of us want an affordable Mac Pro is because we love OSX. If Apple wows me tomorrow with a decently powerful tower (or xMac) and features, I will gladly just buy one and be happy. No need to convince me of build quality, or inherent value, etc. I just don't want to mortgage my house (I exaggerate, of course) for the speed equivalent of an $800 PC.
Have you looked at any business class PC's? Let me give you a hint: They don't sell them at Best Buy.
Strange, last time I had a problem I must've misdialed because Applecare sure was more than helpful with my DELL, and didn't accuse me of stealing it at all!
The Intel licensing BS and the Minis inability to accommodate a dedicated graphics card keeps Apple from putting a quad core i7 in the Mini. If they would do, because Intel comes to it's senses or bring on acceptable graphics and Apple would sell that one for $1200, it would eliminate the need for average people to buy a MacPro. In a MacBook, that would cut battery lifetime in half or so.
Well, 10.04 is a bit better, it has a polished UI. Gnome3 is about it come out, I guess it will be default in 11.04 or 10.10, and that's big step forward for GNU/Linux because it slowly but steady becomes usable for average browser/office users. Also, there is no need to hazzle around with files in /etc on Mac OS X, no average user even has to know that it exists.
For military application I'd prefer GNU/Linux, because source code is completely available and you don't have to fear chinese spy attacks or something.
Try cooling your MacBook down. The only KP I get here on my laptop is when it overheats on heavy loads, and even this is due to overclocking by 0.5 steps because SpeedStep is messed up, and a faulty-by-design MSI fan. (I got it for free when I renewed a mobile contract and I just got an iPhone back then - I wouldn't buy a PC laptop myself. It's specwise a late-2007 MacBook with a early-2006 CPU. Until now, I had to RMA it to repair the power connector for about $130 and the fan became incredible noisy, which is a common problem on that model and not covered by the warranty, MSI claims $180 to replace it with an identical fan which starts to cry out after 2 month again. Occasional greasing fixes that for a couple of weeks. Last time I used silicone spray, and that seems to fix it completely. Next time, I don't even open up the box, put it on eBay and get a used MacBook with the same specs, I would have been better off with that). My Mac Mini didn't KP until now, and I guess it doesn't plan to do so.
As for the video, as soon as it was finished, the first thing that came to mind was "Well, try most of that on Windows 7". Windows 7 is the first version of Windows which can mount NFS natively for example. (And have a look at the colors when he changes the chart: Blueberry, Bondi Blue and Tangerine)
The bottom line is:
The whole stuff still counts for Mac OS X Snow Leopard, 18 years later. Amazing.Steve Jobs said:
Well, that's pretty cool. But do them a favor and get a PS3 or XBox360 for christmas.
I never had any problems with my printers, even on GNU/Linux. I always used Epson, 3 of them over the years, both replaced because I somehow managed to drop them. $100 and they even print on CDs. Maybe I'm just lucky, maybe printer X has a better printing quality, but I never touch a running system.
Well, even GNU/Linux programs SIGSEGVs sometimes. Either you figure out why or replace the software with an alternative. I hope Apple will rewrite iTunes in Cocoa and enhance the underlaying technology to make it rock solid, like they did with the Finder in Snow Leopard. It would run in 64Bit then, too, and that should speed things a little up.
To get to those fancy car analogies, Macs come with AAA included. Support isn't really cheap, especially if the are able to actually help you. Here in Europe, there are callcenters full of longtime-unemployed, unqualified people, who don't even have a clue of what they do support, because they took a 1-week-course before they start working. And there are lots of them, if you're lucky you have someone on the phone who at least knows someone in the callcenter who understands your problem and is able to google it correctly. I can google myself, thank you.
People think price tag and not TCO. If I can sell my 2-year-old MacBook for over $500-600 on eBay, I'm happy. If I did some RAM and hard drive update, even more. You can upgrade a $1000 PC laptop as much as you want, you don't get more then $300, because a new laptop with the same specs will be $500 then. That's the same reason why the MacBook is still worth $500-600.
Indeed, to reiterate another poster's comment, you won't find a high-quality PC laptop at Best Buy, etc. They just sell consumer-grade crap. Try a Thinkpad T or W series (X if you need an ultraportable). They'll beat or match a Macbook(pro). On top of the build quality, they're actually designed to have user-replicable parts. Try to find that anywhere else... Spill a soda in your keyboard? First off, it'll probably drain through harmlessly with the drainage system built in, but even if you somehow kill it, a keyboard is a 5-minute swap requiring only a Phillips-head screwdriver. Same story with the [socketed] processor, the optical drive, the trackpad, etc etc. If you want a good quality PC laptop, buy a Dell Latitude or (my preference) a T/W/X series Thinkpad. They don't sell them in big-box stores because your average BestBuy shopper just wants something cheap and shiny.
Ahaha oh wow. One of the things I like least about Snow Leotard is the look. Apple operating systems up to System 7 were the epitome of clarity and simplicity. A little bit of colour was added up to OS 9 but things remained simple and fairly uniform. Then things went wild and child-like with Aqua but at least we had some consistency to 10.2. Then brushed metal, then different skins in different apps, and Apple seemed to have lost every copy of its own UI guidelines.
When a few guys built a multitasking add-on for System
At least there's resolution independence now, right? Oh.
(While I'm here, wake me when Finder merges folders rather than wiping the original. This antipode of the "do nothing unexpected" maxim makes me wonder whether anyone's ever used Finder to do anything more complex than double-click on apps.)