Why a Mac costs more than a PC...

[kernkraft]

I use Macs but I don't feel the need to throw insult on PCs

I dont mean to brag but I got a 14.5" HP Envy 14 with:

Core i5-450M
6GB RAM
160GB SSD
1GB ATI 5650
1600x900 350nit screen
Backlit keyboard
aluminum alloy
5.2lb 1.09" w/ HDMI port

for..... $1095 after cashback

Well, I haven't checked the prices of PCs until now and I was aware that Apple was charging a premium. But looking at these prices and these specs, I have to open my eyes.

Many posters said how those older Macs are superior to long-dead PCs. I know eMacs and 12" PowerBooks well. I have a pair of eMacs with 1.25GHz from 2003. My parents have a small business, where they use Dell Dimension 2400 computers with their accounting and similar tasks. They are from around 2003 too. They have 2.8 or 3 GHz Pentiums inside with 1GB RAM. It would be foolish to claim that the eMacs run Tiger faster than how the Pentiums run XP. Old macs have character, but people tend to forget that whereas those old PCs can run Microsoft's latest OS, even mid-2006 Mac Pros cannot run what Apple brought out last year.

 

[Repo]

Old macs have character, but people tend to forget that whereas those old PCs can run Microsoft's latest OS, even mid-2006 Mac Pros cannot run what Apple brought out last year.

You mean Steve stopped caring about us and is only interested in his personal financial gain?

 

[SidBala]

I dont mean to brag but I got a 14.5" HP Envy 14 with:

Core i5-450M
6GB RAM
160GB SSD
1GB ATI 5650
1600x900 350nit screen
Backlit keyboard
aluminum alloy
5.2lb 1.09" w/ HDMI port

for..... $1095 after cashback

I really Envy you.

LOL!

 

[Hisdem]

You mean Steve stopped caring about us and is only interested in his personal financial gain?

He has a point, but stick Vista in a P4 machine and you'll see they just run the latest OS (I know it's 7) on paper.

 

[Louis2907]

Same old same old

I have had a Mac since the original 128K Macintosh in 1984, the computer that suits called a toy, well it brought on a revolution in computing for the masses.

Who still works in DOS or command line today, ( that is another subject )

Anyway everybody always said to , you are paying too much for your computer!

Maybe, but it is my money and my choice to do so, if you do not want, don't.

As far as which is better , whatever happened to the DEC alpha , a processor way ahead of all at the time...

This is an old story one that only arouse negative emotions and a pissing war
We should be concentrating on how to use the technologies not which to use
i feel that is a personal choice.

 

[brianfast]

Giuly, justify your claim that "Mac OS X is the most advanced operating system".

It seems to me you are basing your claim based on the Mac OS X GUI, which is laughable.

Darwin is the core OS behind Mac OS X... It is not any more advanced than BSD/Windows/Linux...

 

[millertime021]

Awesome post dude!

 

[ramzhh]

Giuly, justify your claim that "Mac OS X is the most advanced operating system".

It seems to me you are basing your claim based on the Mac OS X GUI, which is laughable.

Darwin is the core OS behind Mac OS X... It is not any more advanced than BSD/Windows/Linux...

Mac OS X is basically Carbon + Cocoa on top of Aqua, which is built on top if Quartz + OpenGL + Quicktime, which are built on top of Darwin. Mac OS X, the architecture of the OS is just that. So what he meant was that for him, that whole package was the most advanced operating system, which by itself is very relative.

 

[Wicked1]

Don't forget a Mac runs OSX but it can also run Windows, in fact My Boot Camp Windows partition is way faster running Windows XP Professional then any work or personal laptop I have owned and I had a Gaming rig at one point.

Any way you look at it, Apple just does everything very well, in fact Extremely, almost perfect. With Windows one OS on many different platforms, very difficult to maintain and keep it running efficiently.

 

[revelated]

Well, you stated PhotoBooth. Hook up a camera that can be used as an USB-webcam, and you can magically take your photos.

The point was that iPhoto is this legendary great app and it is NOT.

You mean cutting Movies? Well, go VirtualDub then.

IN other words, you acknowledge iMovie does not allow me to edit movies like it should. That's all I'm saying.

tomato, tomato. It comes free.

Pre-installed it does. On older systems where it wasn't pre-installed, you have to buy it. That's not "free".

Use cp on the command line or FileMerger.

BS. The buffers have to be fully flushed to disk before you can safely remove the drive. UNIX provides the "sync" command on the command line for this, same thing does "Eject" in Mac OS X - or, boohoo, "Safely Remove Device" in Windows.

You don't use the bash very often, do you? Or know about the init-system and it's management UNIX uses?

I shouldn't have to use command line to do simple things. The GUI should afford me the opportunity to do so. And no, in XP and later, you DO NOT have to "Safely Remove Device" for USB drives. If the drive is configured to use write caching, such an old-school deal is no longer required. Study up, dude.

Use your brains or CoverFlow.

Coverflow works if I've downloaded album art. It does NOT allow me to set a custom image that goes on the folder so I know what the contents are. Example: In a folder full of Kenny G CDs, I might have a high res portrait of him as the top level folder. Windows shows this, Snow Leopard does not.

Also, do you refer to the same hardware? Sure, the WD Caviar Black inside your PC is faster then the 5400RPM laptop drive inside your Mini/MacBook. Larger buffer->faster copy time on screen, more time to flush it onto the disk behind the scenes. This even depends on amount and speed of the RAM, because there's where the buffer's at.

You're talking out of the side of your head. On the EXACT SAME Firewire 800 or eSATA drive, Windows 7 will copy the files twice as fast as Snow Leopard. SL seems like it's "streaming" the files where Windows 7 is just lightning quick.

 

[trip1ex]

I think it's a combination of a faster computer and that web sites containing Flash elements are rendered a little quicker and ”more lightweight” on Windows (it seems even if you have a Flash blocker on the Mac side of things). I have compared both Windows 7 and Mac OS X 10.6(.4) on the same hardware and I also notice this, but on pages where there's no Flash I don't know if there's such a big difference.

The big advantage for Windows 7 is when it comes to scrolling of heavy web sites. Even the ones with a lot of Flash elements are more smooth to scroll and seem to eat less CPU than doing the same thing in Mac OS X (except for Safari which seem to offload scrolling to the graphics card, but scrolling is quite laggy since Flash 10.1 came around).

Don't agree with the small buttons in Mac OS X, though. Well, perhaps the ”maximize, restore and close” buttons are a little bigger and easier to ”hit” in Windows 7, but otherwise I think it's overall easier to hit ”the spot” in Mac OS X, especially since the menu is fixed to the top of the screen – can't miss it,

The menu being fixed to the top is different than being easier to hit the spot. That's more about the layout. I'm just talking about physically larger buttons in Windows. Larger scroll bars. Larger Yes or No boxes. Etc.

YOu can't really argue that. It's a fact. Just compare the sizes.

AS for layout Win7 has done away with the traditional menu header at the top of each page. It's replaced by buttons/icons... Traditional menus are now on the far right, down lower on the page a bit and might even be icons that you click to see the menu below. BAsic idea being put some most used buttons on the page near top left. Hide the menus by shoving them off to the right and maybe even using an icon header instead of a name.

I reset Safari and so far it seems to be running better now. Probably fair since IE8 or my experience with it started from a fresh install. yes some flash stuff seems faster. And the front page stories on Yahoo are faster on IE8 and that's not flash. I do have a better vid card and faster cpu and more memory in my Win7 box. But my iMac is no slouch. It's a 2k9 model.

Anyway OSX was always a tad less snappy than XP and it might be so with Win7 overall too.

Although Live Mail is a bit slow. You delete an email and there is a second delay. EVen a Win7 "beachball" comes up. For every single email.

 

[Giuly]

The point was that iPhoto is this legendary great app and it is NOT.

PhotoBooth is intended to do this, and it's part of Mac OS X.

IN other words, you acknowledge iMovie does not allow me to edit movies like it should. That's all I'm saying.

iMovie does it's job. If VirtuaDub suites your needs better, then use it. Of the functions of iMovie are not sufficient for you, you can also get Final Cut Express/Studio.

Pre-installed it does. On older systems where it wasn't pre-installed, you have to buy it. That's not "free".

Well, that's life. A car didn't came with AC 5 years ago, whereas the same model offers free AC now across the model-line.

I shouldn't have to use command line to do simple things. The GUI should afford me the opportunity to do so. And no, in XP and later, you DO NOT have to "Safely Remove Device" for USB drives. If the drive is configured to use write caching, such an old-school deal is no longer required. Study up, dude.

The cache gets written to the disk after you disconnected it? Interesting. Btw, this is the only USB/FW related message box you ever get, exept when you connect a device that needs more power than a hub can provide. How long does it take again to identify and install the driver on windows?

CoverFlow works if I've downloaded album art. It does NOT allow me to set a custom image that goes on the folder so I know what the contents are. Example: In a folder full of Kenny G CDs, I might have a high res portrait of him as the top level folder. Windows shows this, Snow Leopard does not.

One nice feature in Windows. Acknowledged.

You're talking out of the side of your head. On the EXACT SAME Firewire 800 or eSATA drive, Windows 7 will copy the files twice as fast as Snow Leopard. SL seems like it's "streaming" the files where Windows 7 is just lightning quick.

Again, same hardware? Same USB-Controller? Same chipset? Same RAM? Same source drive? There are differences in hardware, too. It's not only OS+disk, there is **** in-between.
You have to kind of stream the file, how do you immagine copying works? Read a block from the source drive and write it to RAM. Then the USB-controller reads from RAM and writes to the drive. The drive reads from it's USB-Controller and writes it to the disk.
If the source drive, USB-Controller, Chipset or RAM is slower, you can't blame it on the OS. While the USB- or (S)ATA-controllers access the RAM, the CPU gets disconnected from it. In other words: close your Apps and it copyies faster.

 

[revelated]

This whole deal started because someone said that Apple is superior because it has these great apps which oh by the way are free. All I'm saying is:

1. Windows 7 also has free apps that are equal to and in some cases superior to those on Mac;
2. For every Apple app that does 80% of what I might want for free, there is a Windows app that does more for free; and
3. People who think Snow Leopard is tremendously superior to Windows have never used Windows 7. Period.

I say again, both operating systems have merits. Windows 7 is better than a lot of people think it is, and I would guess that most people still think we're in a Windows XP world.

 

[Terdinus Asus]

Darwin is the core OS behind Mac OS X... It is not any more advanced than BSD/Windows/Linux...

Well if you want to use that argument, all cars are based on ICEs so therefore a Ferrari Enzo is no more advanced than a Ford Model T.

IN other words, you acknowledge iMovie does not allow me to edit movies like it should. That's all I'm saying.

iMovie empowers those who are not necessarily professionals in film making to be able to create movies to share with their friends and family. That is the mindset with which it was made and that is why it works 100% better than ANY comparable movie-making software, on any platform anywhere. It has one goal. And it soars at it.

And this is true for iPhoto as well. Why? Because virtually every other software out there works and feels (in its experience) as though it is the production of a committee, which they all are, even Apple's own pro-level Final Cut Studio and Logic Studio.

I say again, both operating systems have merits. Windows 7 is better than a lot of people think it is, and I would guess that most people still think we're in a Windows XP world.

Windows 7 is a good piece of software. Snow Leopard, at this point in time, is better. Windows 7 made a huge leap and truly narrowed the gap with OS X. But it's still not quite as good.

 

[jamesthebusser]

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=bncwd14&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&kc=studio-1747

- I have been shopping around for a Laptop to use when I go back to school, and I came across this tricked out Dell for $2,174.99.

It includes:
Intel® Core™ i7-820QM Quad Core Processor 1.73GHz (3.06GHz Turbo Mode, 8MB Cache)
Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium
Microsoft® Office Starter 2010
1 Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty, InHome Service after Remote Diagnosis
McAfee SecurityCenter, 15-Months
17.3” HD+ (900p) LED Display with TrueLife™, Camera/Facial Recognition SW & MultiTouch
8GB Shared Dual Channel DDR3 at 1333MHz
1TB (2 x 500GB) Dual SATA Hard Drive (7200rpm)
Slot Load Blu-ray Disc (BD) Combo (Reads BD and Writes to DVD/CD)
Intel© Centrino© Advanced-N + WiMAX 6250
Dell Wireless 365 Bluetooth Internal (2.1)
Soundblaster X-Fi Hi Def Audio - Software Enabled
Back-lit Keyboard

The most tricked out MBP 17'' I found had the following:


2.66GHz Intel Core i7
512GB Solid State Drive
8GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2X4GB
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
MacBook Pro 17-inch Hi-Resolution Antiglare Widescreen Display
Backlit Keyboard (English) & User's Guide
AppleCare Protection for 1 year

all for $3,649.00

In terms of value who wins? I think its clear Dell has a better price (granted it doesn't have a solid state drive like the tricked out MPB) but still in terms of overall cost your paying less and getting the same Laptop (or better w/e your opinion may be) minus the OS and the apple logo.

and yes the Dell has a camera built in, its the TrueLife™, Camera/Facial Recognition SW & MultiTouch.

 

[Hisdem]

I think you should take the SSD out. It costs more than $1k, and since the Dell doesn't have it you are turning it into an unfair comparison. IMO that is. Oh and I'm not sure, but looks like that Dell uses crappy Intel integrated graphics (I am probably wrong).

 

[ramzhh]

Coverflow works if I've downloaded album art. It does NOT allow me to set a custom image that goes on the folder so I know what the contents are. Example: In a folder full of Kenny G CDs, I might have a high res portrait of him as the top level folder. Windows shows this, Snow Leopard does not

Actually you can, very easily, in about 5 seconds.

 

[Terdinus Asus]

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellsto...kc=studio-1747

- I have been shopping around for a Laptop to use when I go back to school, and I came across this tricked out Dell for $2,174.99.

It includes:
Intel® Core™ i7-820QM Quad Core Processor 1.73GHz (3.06GHz Turbo Mode, 8MB Cache)
Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium
Microsoft® Office Starter 2010
1 Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty, InHome Service after Remote Diagnosis
McAfee SecurityCenter, 15-Months
17.3” HD+ (900p) LED Display with TrueLife™, Camera/Facial Recognition SW & MultiTouch
8GB Shared Dual Channel DDR3 at 1333MHz
1TB (2 x 500GB) Dual SATA Hard Drive (7200rpm)
Slot Load Blu-ray Disc (BD) Combo (Reads BD and Writes to DVD/CD)
Intel© Centrino© Advanced-N + WiMAX 6250
Dell Wireless 365 Bluetooth Internal (2.1)
Soundblaster X-Fi Hi Def Audio - Software Enabled
Back-lit Keyboard

The most tricked out MBP 17'' I found had the following:


2.66GHz Intel Core i7
512GB Solid State Drive
8GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2X4GB
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
MacBook Pro 17-inch Hi-Resolution Antiglare Widescreen Display
Backlit Keyboard (English) & User's Guide
AppleCare Protection for 1 year

all for $3,649.00

In terms of value who wins? I think its clear Dell has a better price (granted it doesn't have a solid state drive like the tricked out MPB) but still in terms of overall cost your paying less and getting the same Laptop (or better w/e your opinion may be) minus the OS and the apple logo.

and yes the Dell has a camera built in, its the TrueLife™, Camera/Facial Recognition SW & MultiTouch.

Um, not quite. The Core i7 processor that the Dell is using is significantly cheaper and slower than the one found in the MacBook Pro you configured.

Core i7 is not a processor. Core i7 is a brand. Within the brand of Core i7 there are over a dozen different processors.

Secondly, the MacBook Pro you configured is using 512 GB of Solid State memory, which brand spanking new technology that is EXTREMELY expensive. That alone is the price of a 13" MacBook Pro.

So no, you're not getting a better system for the price in the Dell. You're getting exactly what you paid for in each case, Mac and Dell. One is simply an inferior computer and a cheaper price. The other is a lot more powerful and sophisticated and accordingly a lot more expensive.

 

[mac2x]

[...]
Here's my question for the pro-Mac crowd: what about OSX makes it the deal-breaker in your decision? What features can you not replicate elsewhere?


[...]

Unix. Not that you can't get it by going with something else (FreeBSD, for instance) of course! But what other OS can boast a fantastic GUI and Unix? I defy anyone to name one.

Disclaimer: I'm referring to my own tastes and needs, and I fully realize YMMV.

 

[revelated]

Windows 7 is a good piece of software. Snow Leopard, at this point in time AND IN MY OPINION, is better. Windows 7 made a huge leap and truly narrowed the gap with OS X. But I DON'T THINK IT IS QUITE as good.

Fixed. And valid. Your opinion is yours. Those who have used Windows 7 extensively would likely differ. Neither OS is "better" than the other; it's a myth. IT depends on what you're using it for. Sharepoint administrators aren't using Snow Leopard, dude.

Actually you can, very easily, in about 5 seconds.

SO instead of spouting off something with no basis, why not share this mystical secret. Show me how, in 5 seconds, I can:

- Create a folder
- Add contents to the folder including a simple JPG file
- Set the folder IN FINDER (not in Get Info) to use that JPG as its thumbnail
- Do this AUTOMATICALLY and without installing ANY OTHER SOFTWARE (because Windows does not require any software to do it).

I'm seriously eager to hear this, because I don't think you can.

 

[chocolate632]

Fixed. And valid. Your opinion is yours. Those who have used Windows 7 extensively would likely differ. Neither OS is "better" than the other; it's a myth. IT depends on what you're using it for. Sharepoint administrators aren't using Snow Leopard, dude.



SO instead of spouting off something with no basis, why not share this mystical secret. Show me how, in 5 seconds, I can:

- Create a folder
- Add contents to the folder including a simple JPG file
- Set the folder IN FINDER (not in Get Info) to use that JPG as its thumbnail
- Do this AUTOMATICALLY and without installing ANY OTHER SOFTWARE (because Windows does not require any software to do it).

I'm seriously eager to hear this, because I don't think you can.

I think you have to go through Get Info to do it, there's no other way (to my knowledge) of doing it without additional software. And I'm sure he doesn't literally mean 5 seconds. How do you set a thumbnail in Windows that makes it better than in OS X? Just curious, because I have no idea.

 

[NXTMIKE]

I think we all forgot about Apple's leading industrial design.

Really. As much as people say "look don't matter" or "only the inside is important", the reality is, you're going to be staring at your computer for a good portion of your time, and..... it better be nice to stare at.

 

[ramzhh]

[...] I'm seriously eager to hear this, because I don't think you can.

Are you freakin' kidding me?

Let's start by quoting your first statement, ok?

Coverflow works if I've downloaded album art. It does NOT allow me to set a custom image that goes on the folder so I know what the contents are. Example: In a folder full of Kenny G CDs, I might have a high res portrait of him as the top level folder. Windows shows this, Snow Leopard does not.

You didn't mention anything about creating the folder. You were clearly only talking about setting a custom image. And you can do that in 5 seconds.

Get Info is a part of Finder.

And why are you making these rules anyways? You stated it was impossible in the first place, and I will now prove it is possible indeed:

1.- Copy the image you want as a thumbnail.
2.- Open Get Info on the folder and paste the image into the folder image you see.

Done.
In 5 seconds.

 

[trip1ex]

in OSX your music is typically in iTunes, photos are in iPHoto and home movies are in iMovie. There's no need to paste images onto folders.

Different philosophy.

Windows is still folder and file run. Their photo program is just some photo retouching controls patched onto Windows Explorer.

 

[revelated]

I think you have to go through Get Info to do it, there's no other way (to my knowledge) of doing it without additional software. And I'm sure he doesn't literally mean 5 seconds. How do you set a thumbnail in Windows that makes it better than in OS X? Just curious, because I have no idea.

Are you freakin' kidding me?

Let's start by quoting your first statement, ok?


You didn't mention anything about creating the folder. You were clearly only talking about setting a custom image. And you can do that in 5 seconds.

Get Info is a part of Finder.

And why are you making these rules anyways? You stated it was impossible in the first place, and I will now prove it is possible indeed:

1.- Copy the image you want as a thumbnail.
2.- Open Get Info on the folder and paste the image into the folder image you see.

Done.
In 5 seconds.

Open a Finder WINDOW.

In that window, does the folder have a thumbnail? NO. That's what I'm talking about.

In Windows, I do this:

- Open the folder.
- Copy an image into the folder.
- Rename it "folder.jpg".

Done. Can Snow Leopard do that? NO. Can it even put a thumbnail on a folder IN A FINDER WINDOW? NO. Now do you get it??