Why an RFID-enabled iPhone?

[nagromme]

Orwell's nightmare. Powered by Apple.

You should have worried more when cell phones got GPS for emergency response service. GPS allows real tracking, and phones allow long-range data transmission, all tied to your phone account, address and payment info.

In the face of that, how does adding a radio tag (as already used for lots of things) that communicates a few inches make a phone so much scarier?

 

[VulchR]

No RFID for me thank you....

As if security concerns weren't bad enough if your phone gets stolen.., If this is used to pay automatically for services and merchandise, what's to prevent a thief from running up a huge balance by using a stolen iPhone's RFID? Here in the UK we have to enter a PIN when using a credit card, and that seems to deter thieves. However, there are some places that require only a signature for some bank cards - my ex's purse was stolen in London and within the thirty minutes it took to report this to the bank 300 GBR pounds were charged to her bank card. Using a mobile phone for payment is not new - it's just a stupid idea.

 

[wolfshades]

As if security concerns weren't bad enough if your phone gets stolen.., If this is used to pay automatically for services and merchandise, what's to prevent a thief from running up a huge balance by using a stolen iPhone's RFID? Here in the UK we have to enter a PIN when using a credit card, and that seems to deter thieves. However, there are some places that require only a signature for some bank cards - my ex's purse was stolen in London and within the thirty minutes it took to report this to the bank 300 GBR pounds were charged to her bank card. Using a mobile phone for payment is not new - it's just a stupid idea.

Your concerns are understood. My question is: how does this differ from having your wallet or credit card stolen? Amazing that we'll secure our computers up tightly to prevent online security breaches but we'll let the sketchy-looking waiter walk away with our credit card in the restaurant.....

 

[wackymacky]

No spy chips, thank you.

http://spychips.com

Umm. Doesn't my cellphone already have a unique identify number that it comuncates with my carrier while it is switched on and tells them where I am within the cell network. (And with the GPS chip I can be pin-pointed withing a couple of meters).

Ummm... I wonder..... Does Apple track when ever a iPhone onwer enters a Apple Store, Or Wallmart? They have the technology.

 

[kironin]

No spy chips, thank you.

http://spychips.com

I envision a market for some sort of faraday cage in an iPhone carrying case though grounding it maybe a challenge.

After-seller small business opportunity, become a chip remover or disabler perhaps.

 

[wackymacky]

imagine being able to walk around a store and scan items with your iphone for the company's information about the product. That's the kind of stuff we're gonna see in the not-so-distant future imo.

Ummm. What about just snapping the barcode or data-matrix stamp on the product and looking it up, like you can already do?

Seems like a lot of un-necessary fuss.

 

[akbc]

Here in South Korea, all the RFID equipped phones are so useful.
I use it as a metropass, credit card, debit card AND i can ride taxi's with them and pay with it, too.
Heck, I don't even have to carry my bank card because most of the bank machines are RFID equipped too.

I am using iPhone 3GS here, but I miss my old phone that could do all that.
And if iPhone can do that, it'd be great for all the east asian countries that have RFID stuff in their everyday life; like Japan, Hong Kong/China and such.

 

[zacman]

RFID is insecure. The british RFID passports have been cracked within less than 48 hours, the German test ones in less than a day. I wouldn't trust RFID for any important and sensible information like payment services. It's fine for stuff like tracking packages or my skiing card - but that's it.

 

[VulchR]

Your concerns are understood. My question is: how does this differ from having your wallet or credit card stolen? Amazing that we'll secure our computers up tightly to prevent online security breaches but we'll let the sketchy-looking waiter walk away with our credit card in the restaurant.....

OK - I admit that I can a certain tendency toward paranoia , but...

With respect to credit cards, most eating places where I am in the UK bring a machine to the table rather than taking the card away. A PIN is required. Also, one can erase or cover the 3-digit number on the back so that you reduce the chances of your stolen card being used online. My worry is that the RFID will be so automatic ('convenient') that you'll be able to wave your phone to purchase goods or services, without any other conformation of your identity. And it is true that security so far on RFID is far from perfect: indeed, one can now purchase shielded passport covers that reduce the chance of criminal access to sensitive passport information via RFID .

EDIT: Also, didn't O2 trial something called 'Wallet' that allowed a mobile phone to be used to buy things? I wonder how the trial turned out...

 

[rdowns]

RFID is insecure. The british RFID passports have been cracked within less than 48 hours, the German test ones in less than a day. I wouldn't trust RFID for any important and sensible information like payment services. It's fine for stuff like tracking packages or my skiing card - but that's it.

If it is so insecure, why haven't we heard of all the peoplebeing ripped off where it's used quite extensively?

 

[wolfshades]

OK - I admit that I can a certain tendency toward paranoia , but...

With respect to credit cards, most eating places where I am in the UK bring a machine to the table rather than taking the card away. A PIN is required. Also, one can erase or cover the 3-digit number on the back so that you reduce the chances of your stolen card being used online. My worry is that the RFID will be so automatic ('convenient') that you'll be able to wave your phone to purchase goods or services, without any other conformation of your identity. And it is true that security so far on RFID is far from perfect: indeed, one can now purchase shielded passport covers that reduce the chance of criminal access to sensitive passport information via RFID .

EDIT: Also, didn't O2 trial something called 'Wallet' that allowed a mobile phone to be used to buy things? I wonder how the trial turned out...

Evidently, sanity prevails in the U.K. Here in Canada - not so much. Since very few places bring the credit card machine to the table, (and since I have an allergy to sketchy waiters) I make a point of walking over to it myself.

I really do think your concerns are valid. There are some credit card companies and banks here which have already implemented RFID technology on credit cards and phones (non are iPhones obviously). Not too sure about how the Motorola RIFD phones work but with the credit cards, you only need to wave it at a reader and the transaction is done. I'd like to see what they're security folk have to say about this.

 

[ConanTX]

RFID in iPhone for Retail

If a store's inventory uses RFID, then a retail associate could quickly locate merchandise if their iPhone was able to detect RFID signals. Walking up to a wall of jeans and being able to instantly find the size and style you need in a mess left after a big sale would be a great time saver. The employee could also take inventory just by walking through the department.

 

[tknelson]

I envision a market for some sort of faraday cage in an iPhone carrying case though grounding it maybe a challenge.

After-seller small business opportunity, become a chip remover or disabler perhaps.

1) A Faraday cage doesn't need to be grounded to work.
2) A "Faraday case" is a dumb idea. How would you receive calls?
3) The paranoid posts in the thread are stupid to the point of hilarity. Go live in an igloo somewhere, OK?

 

[longofest]

RFID is insecure. The british RFID passports have been cracked within less than 48 hours, the German test ones in less than a day. I wouldn't trust RFID for any important and sensible information like payment services. It's fine for stuff like tracking packages or my skiing card - but that's it.

RFID in passports is kind of another ball of wax. One of the issues with so-called e-Passports is that they store all of the information on the RFID tag (i.e. your personal information) rather than just a reference number to a database. This is so you don't have different countries accessing other countries' databases. However, the level of encryption used on these passports is very weak, so all of that data on the tag is potentially vulnerable.

It is generally considered best practice to put only reference numbers to a database on RFID tags. That way if you skim the tag all you have is jibberish without the accompanying database info.

Don't blame the technology... blame the incorrect use of the technology. I don't see how the above examples of Apple's potential usage could be a serious privacy threat like the passports are.

 

[sn00p]

RFID in passports is kind of another ball of wax. One of the issues with so-called e-Passports is that they store all of the information on the RFID tag (i.e. your personal information) rather than just a reference number to a database. This is so you don't have different countries accessing other countries' databases. However, the level of encryption used on these passports is very weak, so all of that data on the tag is potentially vulnerable.

It is generally considered best practice to put only reference numbers to a database on RFID tags. That way if you skim the tag all you have is jibberish without the accompanying database info.

Don't blame the technology... blame the incorrect use of the technology. I don't see how the above examples of Apple's potential usage could be a serious privacy threat like the passports are.

E-Passports are however resilient to casual scanning (i.e the bad guy standing behind you in the queue) because you need to know personal details about the passport holder in order to generate the access key (this information is physically written inside the passport and the reader uses OCR to read it and then generate the key to access the electronic information).

There have been many unfounded stories about E-Passports, mainly by scaremongering newspapers who find the dumbest "security export" money can buy.

Yes you can duplicate the electronic portion of an E-passport with the right equipment, but what you cannot do is change this original information to create a fake passport that will pass validation, the data is signed using public key cryptography and the private keys are exactly that, private.

Providing that the authorities validate e-passport data with the authentic public keys, there is no problem and no security hole.

 

[madina]

Hhhmmmmmmm

I don't believe I'd use this for payment. Well not if I had my debit card on me.
RFID Maybe useful for locating the device if it was stolen. Please Apple, can you render these small & expensive mobile devices useless if they are stolen?! It would deter thieves!

 

[Stately]

Why RFID?

Vending Machines

Gas Pumps

Door locks and passage locks

Home security system thing - let's you know who came to your door etc.

Subway Train Token

Movie Tickets

Digital "tickets" for anything.

Museum audio program guide thingies.

Micro Payment systems

Demographic plotting of people passing a turnstile

I hope people try to see beyond the "evil Gubment" spy stuff.

I think most do, even those who aren't conspiracy theorists. But it doesn't alleviate the fact that what you said remains true. The question is, do you want that type of control hovering overhead for a gadget that would make life easier? If someone had a million dollar motorcycle made for you but later they said, I get to watch you wherever you go. And you were uneasy about it, but loved the speed and the adrenaline rush of the ride and said to yourself "well I'll be obeying the speed limit anyway" so you let it go and kept the bike. Soon you found out they weren't just watching you when you were riding, they watched you wherever the bike was. Therefore, regardless of speed limit and adherence to the law, you were still monitored. A little creepy huh? Lol.

 

[simulacra]

RFID is insecure. The british RFID passports have been cracked within less than 48 hours, the German test ones in less than a day. I wouldn't trust RFID for any important and sensible information like payment services. It's fine for stuff like tracking packages or my skiing card - but that's it.

And why is it insecure that a passport encryption has been cracked?
Every passport has it's unique number and personal details, so even if a forgerer created a new passport to sell to some guy with shifty eyes the passport number returned when read would reveal the passport as false.

I really cant understand the fright towards new technologies, yes sure, all in all, we are headed towards a future where tracking ppl becomes easy, but we've been down that road since we got social security id/personal numbers at birth.

In the case with a RFID NFC reader in the iphone, your personal integrity has not been compromised beyond any extent compared to what it was before.
This tech makes life easier and is not endangering our personal integrity anymore than it already is.

 

[shilpaworld01]

hi

This could have lots of cool uses though, and I was hoping a while ago that the iPhone would debut this technology on a large platform.

 

[Henri Gaudier]

Interesting to hear you say that -- I use the Oyster RFID card for public transport here in London, and it's incredibly efficient. Compared to paper tickets, it's faster to use, faster to pay for, and much more durable.

Would be great to have this built into my iPhone...

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card#Usage_statistics to see just how massively popular RFID technology is here. Only 4% of Tube users use cash, the rest use RFID for their journeys!

If there's one nation running towards a surveillance state it's the UK. Even the Information Commissioner agrees. What's worse is the UK Home Office has successfully proselytised this to the Dwarf Commander In Chief Sarko who has promised to spend literally billions to emulate the UK here in France.

 

[hipsigti]

I read somewhere awhile back that this same technology was in passports and and licenses and was very easy to read the information and hack in to the chip with some sort of device you can purchase or make from your local radio shack like a frequency scan tool like back in the old days with car alarms with code hopping technology! interesting video check out the whole vid the rfid part starts at 6:20sec. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo

 

[kickFlip]

I am using iPhone 3GS here, but I miss my old phone that could do all that.
And if iPhone can do that, it'd be great for all the east asian countries that have RFID stuff in their everyday life; like Japan, Hong Kong/China and such.

I'm thinking that the Asian market is one of the large reasons why Apple is going forward with RFID implementation. The lack of RFID functionality was one of the major gripes Japanese users had with the iPhone. Which is partly the reason that the iPhone is not as successful there.

 

[fourthtunz]

I'm waiting for the Mark of the Beast = RFID comments to begin.

Serious, there are several segments of the population out there that have objections to this type of technology. I don't know if Apple cares though.

I guess we can already be tracked with the phones we already own?
Rfid would give more info though.
Our populace is largely ignorant of our own governments history and thus oblivious to the freedoms that would be given up freely by this being included in our phones.
Our government is trying to get rfid included in our licenses and has been met with stiff resistance. Now the sheeple will fall for the "convenience" of rfid in the phone.
Fools.

 

[bornofmac]

Really guys?

I guess we can already be tracked with the phones we already own?
Rfid would give more info though.
Our populace is largely ignorant of our own governments history and thus oblivious to the freedoms that would be given up freely by this being included in our phones.
Our government is trying to get rfid included in our licenses and has been met with stiff resistance. Now the sheeple will fall for the "convenience" of rfid in the phone.
Fools.

You know how you can turn your iPhone onto airplane mode? Most likely, especially with such a hot topic as this, you will be able to turn your RFID on and off, because as you remember, you are in control here. Phones also tend to be customizable. Right now based on size only (hd). Once again, with a topic like this, you will most likely be able to request no RFID in the phone.

Or, imagine this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Simply go buy a different phone. The problem has been solved. Amazing.

If you're worried about the government know that you're a gaining weight because the pants your buying are larger than the last ones, maybe you should look at your self esteem, or maybe you have a weight problem. Try spending less time complaining on the internet and more time on your feet.

Either way, let them put RFID tags in. Lets advance to Japans level of technology. We here in America are so closed minded and paranoid. If you're so paraniod about the government knowing that you're buying things you shouldn't, don't bring your phone in the store, or don't do illegal activities.

And lastly, some of you are worried that advertisers will target people. As human beings (real live) we have freedom of choice. We don't have to listen to ads, and we can buy what we want. Develop a little self control. I don't want to see tampon ads when I am watching the game with the guys, it would be great if we had audience only oriented ads.

So, quit buying dirty magazines, bomb making materials, listening to every ad, and thinking that we have it all here in America, and then maybe embrace that Apple thinks like a human being a little more than the average corperation.

Cheers Apple heads!

 

[fourthtunz]

You know how you can turn your iPhone onto airplane mode? Most likely, especially with such a hot topic as this, you will be able to turn your RFID on and off, because as you remember, you are in control here. Phones also tend to be customizable. Right now based on size only (hd). Once again, with a topic like this, you will most likely be able to request no RFID in the phone.

Or, imagine this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Simply go buy a different phone. The problem has been solved. Amazing.

If you're worried about the government know that you're a gaining weight because the pants your buying are larger than the last ones, maybe you should look at your self esteem, or maybe you have a weight problem. Try spending less time complaining on the internet and more time on your feet.

Either way, let them put RFID tags in. Lets advance to Japans level of technology. We here in America are so closed minded and paranoid. If you're so paraniod about the government knowing that you're buying things you shouldn't, don't bring your phone in the store, or don't do illegal activities.

And lastly, some of you are worried that advertisers will target people. As human beings (real live) we have freedom of choice. We don't have to listen to ads, and we can buy what we want. Develop a little self control. I don't want to see tampon ads when I am watching the game with the guys, it would be great if we had audience only oriented ads.

So, quit buying dirty magazines, bomb making materials, listening to every ad, and thinking that we have it all here in America, and then maybe embrace that Apple thinks like a human being a little more than the average corperation.

Cheers Apple heads!

How much does the Gov pay you?
That was a very well written first post!
Am I worried about the Gov knowing that I've gained weight?
Um no.
Read some history about our country.
Read the history about our Federal Reserve(Private Bank)
Read the patriot act.

I am not worried about a thing. Go ahead, keep believing what you want.
I can see where our country is headed, I will not trust our government for anything.