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Why Apple has delayed the "Push" services

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bbplayer5 said:
d21mike said:
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I partly agree. But the OP is saying the reason for the delay is because of the current Push Service. I asked which Push Service is he taking about. Still would like to know.
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Push notification for apps. Its going to be basically the same thing, just a whole lot more traffic.
Click to expand...

Since it has not been realesed why do you say battery life will be poor and compre to RIM?
 
Wow another thread on push :)

I've said this before, but i'll say it again.

I think Apple promised to much. From bandwidth cost and everything in between.

They would have to handle millions of users with millions of push notifications every second.

Think about Twitter for example. They even had bandwidth issues and have limited search abilities recently to bring it down.

Now imagine Apple having to deal with multiple twitter apps asking for push notifications to millions of users. Then add on top millions of aim msg's, and hundreds of other apps requestiing pushs etc.

Can you see a logistical nightmare here?

Also how does the device handle these notifications? Vibrate? Sound? etc.. How many times will you phone be beeping or vibrating, could get annoying if you have 5 or 6 apps doing push notifications.

My two cents.
 
bbplayer5 said:
Push notification for apps. Its going to be basically the same thing, just a whole lot more traffic.
Click to expand...
The same thing? The slide they showed that I linked to shows they're setting it up to work virtually the same way that RIM does push for BlackBerrys. How the heck is that "basically the same thing"?
 
bbplayer5 said:
Its completely WRONG. Your phone pings the server (push) every 15 minutes asking to keep its connection alive. Its not asking 4 times per day, it would be asking 4 times PER HOUR.
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2 questions for you genius:

1. How do I get my email within 2 seconds of sending it if it only pings the server every 15 minutes.

2. What's the difference between "push" and "fetch every 15 minutes" then?

When they explained push, they did not mention that it would be pinging the server every 15 minutes... where are you getting this information?
 
TheSpaz said:
2 questions for you genius:

1. How do I get my email within 2 seconds of sending it if it only pings the server every 15 minutes.

2. What's the difference between "push" and "fetch every 15 minutes" then?

When they explained push, they did not mention that it would be pinging the server every 15 minutes... where are you getting this information?
Click to expand...

The pdf that aristobrat posted explains how (at least) Microsofts Push works. There is a keep-alive that takes place every so often. This takes place if there has been no messages from the server.
 
diamond.g said:
The pdf that aristobrat posted explains how (at least) Microsofts Push works. There is a keep-alive that takes place every so often. This takes place if there has been no messages from the server.
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So it's been confirmed that Apple is going to be using Microsoft's version of push? I don't remember hearing about this. I seem to remember them saying it was like RIM's push. Hmm... I guess since Microsoft does it one way... that's the way it has to be done. Yeah, you're right... silly me.
 
I really don't think the delay has anything to do with battery life. As everyone has pointed out in this thread, RIM already do a similar thing without massive battery drain and we also already have push running with email, ical and address book without a huge hit on battery.

I think the server issue may be one reason why it's been delayed. However another may be that Apple are re-thinking how notifications work on the iPhone. For example, only SMS or missed calls show up on the lock screen. Apple recently filed a patent for a much more detailed lock screen which any app could post information to. So you could have missed calls, texts, IMs, Twitter or mail posting their status on the lock screen.

Maybe Apple are working on getting a better system wide and lock screen notification system working before releasing push notifications?
 
Manic Mouse said:
I really don't think the delay has anything to do with battery life. As everyone has pointed out in this thread, RIM already do a similar thing without massive battery drain and we also already have push running with email, ical and address book without a huge hit on battery.

I think the server issue may be one reason why it's been delayed. However another may be that Apple are re-thinking how notifications work on the iPhone. For example, only SMS or missed calls show up on the lock screen. Apple recently filed a patent for a much more detailed lock screen which any app could post information to. So you could have missed calls, texts, IMs, Twitter or mail posting their status on the lock screen.

Maybe Apple are working on getting a better system wide and lock screen notification system working before releasing push notifications?
Click to expand...

Yeah... for all we know... there could have been HUGE problems with the developer seed of 2.1 with Push. They've probably been working on it in house until it's completely ready.
 
TheSpaz said:
So it's been confirmed that Apple is going to be using Microsoft's version of push? I don't remember hearing about this. I seem to remember them saying it was like RIM's push. Hmm... I guess since Microsoft does it one way... that's the way it has to be done. Yeah, you're right... silly me.
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For Exchange they have to use the MS method. For MobileMe I am not sure what method they use, but am pretty confident it is TCP based and not UDP based.
 
bbplayer5 said:
Push notification for apps. Its going to be basically the same thing, just a whole lot more traffic.
Click to expand...

"bbplayer5" - Same as what? My question is which Push Service that is currently available on the iPhone are you talking about? Or do you saying that all of the Push Services on the iPhone work exactly the same?

1. MobileMe Push

2. Yahoo Push

3. MS Exchange ActiveSync
 
d21mike said:
"bbplayer5" - Same as what? My question is which Push Service that is currently available on the iPhone are you talking about? Or do you saying that all of the Push Services on the iPhone work exactly the same?

1. MobileMe Push

2. Yahoo Push

3. MS Exchange ActiveSync
Click to expand...

If you think about it they all have to work similarly. A keep-alive of some sort. With data being transferred only when the server gets mail or when you send mail. That is the basis of all of them. Now the real question is do they use TCP or UDP for connections as that will make some difference in how much data has to flow (and if data has to get resent, latency, etc). We know that MS uses TCP (with no compression). We know that RIM uses UDP (with some form of compression). We do not know if MobileMe and Yahoo Push use TCP or UDP. And we don't know if there is compression involved either.
 
Apples "push works like this"

Your phone opens a connection with the server asking if there is any information there to receive. If there is nothing, the connection remains idle for 15 minutes waiting for the server to send anything that comes in. After 15 minutes expires, your phone will again send the server a request and keep the connection open waiting for information to be passed to the phone.

A true push (as I understand it - RIM has a patent for it) the server does all of the waiting. It basically contacts your phone when you have new information via a very tiny packet sent through participating carriers (AT&T being one of them, as well as Verizon). When your phone receives the message it will contact the server for the information that is waiting.

Apples sync takes far more bandwidth to accomplish the same task, and thus using way more battery life. I had the storm for a period of 30 days, and the battery was never drained for push and I was getting far more emails with it than I was on my iPhone.

Sure your phone is going to get its email immediately but that doesnt mean its using a true push to get it.
 
bbplayer5 said:
Which could explain the next generation iPhone rumored to be getting more processors.
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Which would piss off users who purchased the 3g or even the first gen iPhone. Since the competition can do PUSH services just fine. :mad:
 
If / when Apple brings it in, i'd likelyy expect them to talk about why it took a while.
 
How it works

For IMAP Push EMAIL: Client sends 'IDLE' request to server, and delays acknowledgement of the subsequent response for upto 29 minutes. During this time the connection is held open, and the server will signal new email availability. Client must then download new mail. (NOTE: Not currently supported in iPhone, Yahoo uses something slightly different.)

See: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2177

The Microsoft ActiveSync Push EMAIL protocol is essentially the same except client sends a 'PING' request to the server, and delays acknowledgement of the subsequent response for up to 900 seconds (15 minutes).

See: http://notbrainsurgery.livejournal.com/35306.html. Quoting from that link:
The key point, is that on packet switched radio network like GPRS, a connection which is waiting for response without sending any data does not use additional battery power compared to a regular device standby power consumption.
Click to expand...

(But, as already noted in this thread, there is a small cost for sending the 'PING' every 15 minutes.) Other proprietary systems, such as RIM, send notifications in an SMS -- this is clearly the most battery efficient.


Hopefully the above explanation makes it clear that this statement is false:

bbplayer5 said:
Simple really, battery life. Push enabled on your phone drains the battery twice as fast as if it was off.
Click to expand...


Now... to get back on-topic: Apple PushNotification Service :)

Perhaps Apple has "bitten off more than they can chew" with this PushNotification system design -- it seems to require extraordinary levels of data transfer and storage. It will be interesting to see what happens! Hopefully it happens soon ;)
 
fimac said:
For IMAP Push EMAIL: Client (e.g. iPhone) sends 'IDLE' request to server, and delays acknowledgement of the subsequent response for upto 29 minutes. During this time the connection is held open, and the server will signal new email availability. Client must then download new mail.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that the iPhone uses IMAP IDLE for MobileMe Push and Yahoo Push Email? It was my understanding that the iPhone does not support IMAP IDLE. At least not for other IMAP IDLE Servers such as Google IMAP IDLE.
 
bbplayer5 said:
Apples "push works like this"

Your phone opens a connection with the server asking if there is any information there to receive. If there is nothing, the connection remains idle for 15 minutes waiting for the server to send anything that comes in. After 15 minutes expires, your phone will again send the server a request and keep the connection open waiting for information to be passed to the phone.

A true push (as I understand it - RIM has a patent for it) the server does all of the waiting. It basically contacts your phone when you have new information via a very tiny packet sent through participating carriers (AT&T being one of them, as well as Verizon). When your phone receives the message it will contact the server for the information that is waiting.
Click to expand...

1. Does RIM require a Phone Type Connection to work. I mean, will it not work if you only have a WiFi Connection like the iPOD Touch?

2. I found the following on the web. Would you say it is accurate?
http://plusrw.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/does-mobilemes-push-email-really-push/
=== from the link above:
Well, it turns out that MobileMe supports Push-IMAP, a relatively new protocol. The way it works is a client logs into the MobileMe server with a long-lived HTTPS connection. Through this connection, the client sends any updates to the server. The server sets up a long-lived response to send back notifications of new messages. Data is compressed to help lower bandwidth requirements. P-IMAP is an open protocol and a P-IMAP to IMAP bridge can be set up to allow legacy mail servers to provide push services. In addition to email updates, P-IMAP allows other data, such as contacts and calendars to be synchronized.

3. I did some of my own testing and my MobileMe Push works in Airplane Mode with only WiFi Enabled. For this to work I would think it would have to do something like Push-IMAP.
 
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