Why are 5K monitors so hard?

[zorinlynx]

I've been researching how to get a 5K monitor onto an M1 Mac Mini for a user at work, and I just noticed that it's just... really, really hard?

There's no solid information about what works and what doesn't. All the solutions I see involve docks, multiple cables... It's a mess!

The only monitor on the market that seems to do 5K on Macs trouble-free is that LG one, which is apparently no longer manufactured and extremely expensive.

What the heck is the deal? Why is this so hard, and why has no other company put out 5K monitors which support Thunderbolt like the LG one does? You would think people wanting nice monitors on their Macs would be a decently big market, and that companies besides LG would come up with appropriate products. Some of the ultra-wide 5K+ monitors on the market look amazing but everything I read suggests it's a huge hassle to get them working right.

I would even understand if this were new tech, but the first 5K iMacs came out in 2014 and that LG display in 2016. This is old hat stuff and should be perfected commodity tech by now.

 

[mfram]

I can't tell you which one to use. But as to why, I'd say because the primary audience for external monitors are Windows machines. And not many Windows machines feature Thunderbolt as the method to connect to the monitor. They use DisplayPort or (more likely) HDMI. Those connections are designed for 4K, not 5K. Apple designed for something that the Windows community doesn't use.

 

[Amethyst1]

What the heck is the deal? Why is this so hard, and why has no other company put out 5K monitors which support Thunderbolt like the LG one does?

There are two three kinds of "5K" displays right now.

1. Those that use two discrete DisplayPort 1.2 streams or cables, each driving one half of the monitor at 2560×2880. Apple call this "dual-link SST". The Dell UP2715K, HP Z27q, iMac 5K and LG UltraFine 5K are wired up that way, but in the case of the latter the two DisplayPort streams are encapsulated in a single Thunderbolt 3 stream so that only one cable needs to be connected to the computer.
UPDATE: The Apple Studio Display can also do 5K60 via dual-link SST (for connection to a system that doesn't support DisplayPort 1.4 plus DSC).

2. Those that use a single DisplayPort 1.4 cable but are restricted to 8 bit per colour (the displays listed in the first paragraph are 10 bit per colour). The Iiyama XB2779QQS, Planar IX2790 and a DIY "5K" display based on the iMac's panel are wired up that way. Both Iiyama and Planar use panels with quality issues.

3. Those that use a single DisplayPort 1.4 cable/signal and require DSC to display 10 bit per colour. AFAIK, the Apple Studio Display is the only pre-built 5K display that falls in this category (as of March 24, 2022).

So, option 1 gives you 10 bpc but is more complicated to connect with the UltraFine being sort of an exception, and option 2 gives you 8 bit per colour and is easier to connect. The ideal solution, if your machine can do DSC and it's working, is option 3 — a "5K" display that supports DSC so a single DisplayPort cable is enough for "5K" at 10 bit per colour.

They use DisplayPort or (more likely) HDMI. Those connections are designed for 4K, not 5K.

DisplayPort 1.4 can handle "5K" at 8 bpc just fine, and with DSC, 10 bpc is no problem. DisplayPort 1.4 can even handle "8K" at 30 Hz without DSC.

The reason there are no "5K" monitors is presumably that there's virtually no demand for them outside of the (comparatively) small Mac user base, because Windows' fractional scaling doesn't have the blurriness that macOS' way of handling fractional scaling has. A 27" "4K" monitor scaled to 150% gives you 2560×1440 screen estate and it looks great (I use that on my Windows system). But on macOS... for a pin-sharp 2560×1440 screen estate (because who wants blurriness?) you need a 27" "5K" monitor to run pixel-perfectly (at 200% scaling).

UPDATE [March 24th, 2022]: Added third kind of 5K display.

 

[frou]

The market spoke and hardly any customers cared (or knew about) "true Mac Retina" (~220 PPI, i.e. 5120x2880 @ 27", 4096x2304 @ 22"). Hell even Apple shipped MBPs for years that were set to run at blurred non-native resolutions out of the box!

So the more mass-produced panels that aren't MacOS-oriented (4K @ 27", 4K @ 24") took over and are considered by 96% of people to be good enough.

 

[zorinlynx]

The market spoke and hardly any customers cared (or knew about) "true Mac Retina" (~220 PPI, i.e. 5120x2880 @ 27", 4096x2304 @ 22"). Hell even Apple shipped MBPs for years that were set to run at blurred non-native resolutions out of the box!

So the more mass-produced panels that aren't MacOS-oriented (4K @ 27", 4K @ 24") took over and are considered by 96% of people to be good enough.

It kind of blows my mind that people don't care about "true retina" quality. After first using it for just a short time, all other displays are dead to me.

This makes me feel like we are at the mercy of Apple to release new displays. They really need something equivalent to the 27" panel in their own iMacs. The LG seems to come close, but it's not made anymore as far as I can tell and is too expensive.

Apple call this "dual-link SST". The Dell UP2715K (this is the one I use)

And of course I look into the UP2715K and it's discontinued as well. Dell doesn't even sell any 5K monitors in that size range. At least the term "dual-link SST" gives me a better place to look from.

This is frustrating. I think we're just going to tell our user that he is best off with an iMac if he wants a retina desktop Mac experience. Sadly the only 27" iMacs for sale now are the older Intel models and Apple has given us no hint as to when or if something bigger is coming.

 

[Amethyst1]

It kind of blows my mind that people don't care about "true retina" quality.

There’s something between “awful” and “true Retina” though. A 24” 4K screen is about 185 ppi and looks good at the pixel-perfect 1080p HiDPI setting - if you don’t need more real estate and mind large UI elements. But as soon as you go 27” 4K and scale, things start looking less good.

And of course I look into the UP2715K and it's discontinued as well.

It was the first 5K monitor to be released (alongside the iMac in 2014) and has had its “normal” life. I got mine second-hand for like $500 and it works fine - I’m on an Intel Mac though.

To hook up a Dell UP2715K or HP Z27q to an M1 Mac [mini], you’ll need an adapter (also made by many other companies) since you can’t hook up two DisplayPort cables directly.

At least the term "dual-link SST" gives me a better place to look from.

This is a term used only by Apple AFAIK - I’m not sure how useful it is as a general search term.

 

[dotck]

It kind of blows my mind that people don't care about "true retina" quality. After first using it for just a short time, all other displays are dead to me.

Same for me. My six old iMac 5K is still top notch in regards to display quality. Today I bought a LG Ultrawide display with 5K resolution (which is 5120x1440 on 49") to have more space to work on - however the difference between the iMac's 218ppi and the Ultrawide's 108ppi is unacceptable for me so I'll return it.

Are there any known alternatives or successors to the LG 27MD5KL (btw: is it the same panel as being used in the iMacs and if so, does it also suffer from the image retention issue (ghosting))?

 

[mctrials23]

I'm in the same boat. I really want a good quality 5K 27" but the choices are basically 0 in the UK. I am close to pulling the trigger on an XDR but that price tag is just wow. And I know that inevitably they will release something a bit more consumer friendly in a year or two for half the price.

With the direction apple have gone with the new MBPs maybe they will give us another "cinema display" for an alright price.

 

[Arctic Moose]

I have looked and looked for reasonable ~220 ppi options in the 27” range now that a MacBook Pro is on its way and my 5K iMac needs to go, and have found nothing. I’ll have to stick with my two HP Z27 for now, and hope Apple releases somewhat stomachable options soon.

 

[Amethyst1]

Today I bought a LG Ultrawide display with 5K resolution (which is 5120x1440 on 49") to have more space to work on - however the difference between the iMac's 218ppi and the Ultrawide's 108ppi is unacceptable for me so I'll return it.

The only ultrawides to get the HiDPI ("Retina") modes on macOS are those with a 5120×2160 (dubbed "5K2K") resolution, available in 34" (LG 34WK95; MSI PS341WU) and 40". Those have ≈164 or ≈139 ppi.

 

[- rob -]

I'm in the same boat. I really want a good quality 5K 27" but the choices are basically 0 in the UK. I am close to pulling the trigger on an XDR but that price tag is just wow. And I know that inevitably they will release something a bit more consumer friendly in a year or two for half the price.

With the direction apple have gone with the new MBPs maybe they will give us another "cinema display" for an alright price.

You may enjoy this thread:

Wishful Thinking: WWDC Debuts New Apple Mid Market Display​

See also the XDR Owners Thread.

I also was flummoxed by the lack of quality external display options that would work with the Mac Mini.

I gave in and got an XDR and haven’t looked back. Presumably, it will get an upgrade next year, but possibly not.

And presumably a mid market display will debut next year, but again, possibly not.

 

[Amethyst1]

And presumably a mid market display will debut next year, but again, possibly not.

I wonder how likely this is to be a less expensive 32” 6K. Not interested in a smaller/lower-resolution one.

 

[MikeDr206]

the Dell UP2715K has great aesthetics. It has some foibles in usage, which I’ve gotten used to. If Dell updated it to USB C, and perhaps add a webcam (or not… just include a Logitech or something perhaps), I think they could sell a bunch to Mac users at $2k MSRP.

Other than the Dell logo on the monitor, it looks like it was made by Apple…

 

[Amethyst1]

If Dell updated it to USB C […]

USB-C (a single DisplayPort 1.4 stream) can’t do 5K at 60 Hz 10 bpc without DSC. So they’d also need to add DSC support (preferable) or make it use Thunderbolt 3 encapsulating two discrete DisplayPort streams (like the LG UltraFine 5K does).

 

[MikeDr206]

USB-C (a single DisplayPort 1.4 stream) can’t do 5K at 60 Hz 10 bpc without DSC. So they’d also need to add DSC support (preferable) or make it use Thunderbolt 3 encapsulating two discrete DisplayPort streams (like the LG UltraFine 5K does).

I’d assume the latter, since this is what the UP2715K does “physically” right now (2 DP connections).

 

[fgengineer]

Yes, I lament this a lot. Dell also has the 8k monitor that I think was the replacement for the 5k monitor. I have considered getting it especially when it goes on sale for about $3000, but I am tired of the hassle of the MST, dual cable setups. Plus, I don't think in works on Mac.

I use both Mac and Windows and maybe Linux in the future and I would like something that works with all of them. I would really like a high PPI display that supports DisplayPort DSC so I don't have all this hassle.

I have put the Apple XDR display on my cart multiple times, but I haven't pulled the trigger cause of the price. Plus, the longer I wait, the more I think that a replacement is closer to being launched and would really have buyer's remorse. I am so hoping for a new display next year from Apple or anybody else for that matter.

 

[MikeDr206]

I’d buy the Dell 8k in a heartbeat, but alas it doesn’t work with Mac.

 

[Amethyst1]

I’d buy the Dell 8k in a heartbeat, but alas it doesn’t work with Mac.

IIRC it does work at 30Hz via a single connection (woohoo…) or as two separate tiles at 60Hz but not reliably.
Hoping for a new single-tile “8K” 60Hz DSC display as said above.

 

[Jaro65]

You may enjoy this thread:

Wishful Thinking: WWDC Debuts New Apple Mid Market Display​

See also the XDR Owners Thread.

I also was flummoxed by the lack of quality external display options that would work with the Mac Mini.

I gave in and got an XDR and haven’t looked back. Presumably, it will get an upgrade next year, but possibly not.

And presumably a mid market display will debut next year, but again, possibly not.

Same here. I got tired of waiting and even though initially dismissed the XDR due to its price, I finally gave in a few months ago and got it. Don't regret a thing, though still hope Apple releases something less expensive.

 

[WP31]

The thread has already spoken on the original point but I'd like to highlight the best answer for OP: "The reason there are no 5K monitors is that there's virtually no demand for them outside of the (comparatively) small Mac user base". Dell made one and it sold so poorly that they discontinued it. As someone else said, ~90+% of the public is happy with 'better than 1440 but worse than 2880' aka 4k. Or in plain language, not enough people bought 5k's.

Ref the Apple monitor discussion: They purposefully got out of the consumer level monitor market years ago. When they did, Mr Cook said something along the lines of "Monitors are a commodity and we are not interested in competing in that space". They worked with LG to ensure there was at least one 5K monitor available and dipped out. Then they saw there was a gap in the (real) pro-level monitor market somewhere between the ~$2k consumer monitors and ~$30k reference monitors so they made the XDR. I constantly watch the rumors about a new Apple monitor but I just don't see a case for them making anything new and definitely not at a price point below $2k. If anything, I could maybe, possibly see a space for a $3-4k Apple monitor but where would it even sit? The 5k market is dead (no demand) and the 6k market is covered by the XDR.

 

[Arctic Moose]

If anything, I could maybe, possibly see a space for a $3-4k Apple monitor but where would it even sit? The 5k market is dead (no demand) and the 6k market is covered by the XDR.

I think lots and lots of Mac mini and Mac laptop users would easily pay $1500-2000 for an Apple-branded 27" 5K. I would buy one on launch day, and if it is closer to $1500 than $2000 I would buy two.

The monitor situation is the only regret I have giving up my iMac for a 14". (Oh, and x86 VMs, I guess.)

 

[Amethyst1]

I think lots and lots of Mac mini and Mac laptop users would easily pay $1500-2000 for an Apple-branded 27" 5K.

How many Mac mini buyers chose the $1,299 LG UltraFine 5K to go along with it then?
I think most people don’t see the point in buying a monitor that costs as much as or more than the computer, maybe because they don’t see a good monitor as an investment they may benefit from for years to come.

 

[Arctic Moose]

How many Mac mini buyers chose the $1,299 LG UltraFine 5K to go along with it then?
I think most people don’t see the point in buying a monitor that costs as much as or more than the computer, maybe because they don’t see a good monitor as an investment they may benefit from for years to come.

I think many Mac users (myself included) took a few hard looks at the UltraFine and said "no thanks".

Applying the same reasoning to a potential Apple-branded monitor is underestimating the Apple brand, I believe.

The iMac seems to be fairly popular, despite starting at $1800, and I have heard many MacBook (Pro) users express that they'd happily buy an iMac just to use it as a monitor, had only target mode still been a thing.

(Of course the existence of the iMac proves that Apple could easily sell a $1500 27" 5K, but naturally that logic does not apply to Apple.)

 

[WP31]

Hey Moose, I'm with you 100%. I absolutely would too. One of the points I was trying to convey is that unfortunately the market has spoken on 5k monitors. LG, HP and Dell all made them and not enough people bought them. LG still technically offers one but that is only because they have an agreement with Apple to make it. Maybe an Apple branded version would sell a little better but not enough to convince Apple to get back into the commoditized consumer monitor market.

On the other hand if LG were to stop making the 5KUF then I could see a space where Apple might conceivably produce a new one. They won't leave the 5k market empty because that is 'retina' 1440 and all their computers are designed for that.

 

[MikeDr206]

If LG were to make a premium version — higher end materials with aesthetics that better match the Mac — I’m certain that they get many takers even if they charge a $500 premium.