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iHorseHead

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jan 1, 2021
1,871
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Hello,
something that I've noticed is that Windows PCs are pretty much as expensive as Macs these days, but why?
And most PCs have 16GB of RAM. At least in electronic stores, but the difference used to be huge. I remember Dell with 3GB of RAM and 250GB HDD cost as much as MacBook 4,1 with 1GB of RAM and 128 HDD and the specs of PCs used to be a lot better.

Nowadays most computers have 16GB of RAM and cost as much as Macs. Is it because of Apple?
 
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Hello,
something that I've noticed is that Windows PCs are pretty much as expensive as Macs these days, but why?
And most PCs have 16GB of RAM. At least in electronic stores, but the difference used to be huge. I remember Dell with 3GB of RAM and 250GB HDD cost as much as MacBook 4,1 with 1GB of RAM and 128 HDD and the specs of PCs used to be a lot better.

Nowadays most computers have 16GB of RAM and cost as much as Macs. Is it because of Apple?
Basically.
 
PC Makers realized that folks are willing to pay more for "better quality" PC. They have determined that they do not have to double the specs of a Mac for a cheaper price to sell systems at a "premium".
Was this happening before? And if so, is it them not doubling their specs or Apple moved closer to the line? I'm very curious if there's meaningful data on this.
 
Because I've read that it's Apple that decides the prices. If other companies see that they can charge +100% markup on RAM because of Apple they will do so.
But Apple has essentially been doing that and the other companies haven't really followed in any meaningful way so I'm not sure this is true at all.

If Apple decided to make 24GB of RAM a base model MacBooks instead of 16GB other companies would follow.
But other OEMs managed to make 16GB the standard (as many have pointed out many times here) without Apple's leadership here (also 512GB) so I'm still not sure this is true.

This just seems like meaningless conjecture.
 
Was this happening before? And if so, is it them not doubling their specs or Apple moved closer to the line? I'm very curious if there's meaningful data on this.
I think the shift occurred during the netbook craze. Apple devices started selling like hotcakes and others (like Dell, Lenovo etc) followed suit. Made a bit easier cause Apple was using Intel CPU's at the time.
 
Hello,
something that I've noticed is that Windows PCs are pretty much as expensive as Macs these days, but why?
And most PCs have 16GB of RAM. At least in electronic stores, but the difference used to be huge. I remember Dell with 3GB of RAM and 250GB HDD cost as much as MacBook 4,1 with 1GB of RAM and 128 HDD and the specs of PCs used to be a lot better.

Nowadays most computers have 16GB of RAM and cost as much as Macs. Is it because of Apple?

IMO your premise is wrong. There have been premium PCs around for a very long time for the same price as expensive Macs. But there have always been cheaper PCs starting from around $300,- also.

Brands like HP, Dell, Lenovo etc. for as long I can remember had (and still have) a budget- and a premium line.

This situation still exists. Nothing has changed.

EDIT:
Microsoft introduced the Surface line of computers in 2012 to give a new impulse to manufacturers to build more premium computers and to get rid of the 'cheap image' PC's had in that time. Also before 2012 there already where premium PC's but since 2012 more (well known) pc manufacturers followed suit and started building more premium PC's and that has not changed since. Your impression that it happens 'these days' is imo already happening (at least) since 2012.
 
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I think the shift occurred during the netbook craze. Apple devices started selling like hotcakes and others (like Dell, Lenovo etc) followed suit. Made a bit easier cause Apple was using Intel CPU's at the time.

What shift? Only if you assume the OP's premise is right. See my previous post (#11).

Also the OP is talking about 'these days' (as in recently). The netbook craze is from a long time ago and had nothing to do with more expensive premium prices but (on the contrary) with lowering prices.
 
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Hello,
something that I've noticed is that Windows PCs are pretty much as expensive as Macs these days, but why?
And most PCs have 16GB of RAM. At least in electronic stores, but the difference used to be huge. I remember Dell with 3GB of RAM and 250GB HDD cost as much as MacBook 4,1 with 1GB of RAM and 128 HDD and the specs of PCs used to be a lot better.

Nowadays most computers have 16GB of RAM and cost as much as Macs. Is it because of Apple?

When looking at base models or one spec bump on ultrabooks, this is probably true. When you start to bump up RAM and storage from base models, I think the cost delta between the PC and Mac really starts to diverge. You can get much better pricing on upgraded (RAM+storage) PC models in comparison to similar spec Mac. Also, PCs tend to go on sale a lot more than Macs, so even though the MSRP might be similar, a lot of consumers aren't paying that.

So I think the adage still holds for the most part.
 
Several years ago, PC laptop makers used to give you 32 GB of RAM and 1 TB SSD in the midrange models as they had to give you something more because Apple Silicon was so good (and Apple's build quality was better too). What later happened is that the PC makers upped their game to make stuff with better features and now they're charging for it.

The PC companies also span the market from $200 Chromebooks to $6,000 gaming monsters like the MSI Titan 18. But there are a lot of sales in the $600 - $1,000 area for people on a budget and they give you fewer features so that the people that want those features will spend between $1,000 and $2,000 for them. If they have the money and the features are worth it to them, they'll go upmarket or add options.

The PC world also has a crazy number of discounts, coupons and sales. I saw a $1,800 ProArt PX 13 for sale for $1,250 at Best Buy three weeks ago. After the sale was over, it went back to the normal price of $1,800. Could you ever imagine getting 30% off a MacBook on a current year model? I've never run into a deal like that.

So if you want a nicer display, more RAM, more SSD, the ability to add SSD or RAM, then you're going to pay for it. The upgrades will cost less than what Apple charges for RAM and SSD. I received a Lenovo Yoga this week and going from 16 to 32 GB of RAM was $50. Going from 512 GB to 1 TB SSD was $50. I can upgrade the SSD to 2 TB buy just buying the NVMe SSD myself and replacing the one that came with it.

The model I got was about $2K. I paid $1,514 after coupons and discounts. Last year's model dropped to $1,300 after this year's model was launched. They cleared them out at fire sale prices. So the time of the year can matter a lot on the price you pay.

There is a lot of cheap crap in the PC world. I'm in r/Lenovo and people there complain about their laptops failing after six months or a year. But you find out that they're in other countries where the weather is a lot warmer and they don't have air condition or they paid $400 for the laptop. I don't think that I'd touch a lot of PC models on the lower end of the price spectrum if I wanted it to last more than a few years.

Intel put the RAM on the SoC for Lunar Lake so your RAM options are limited and you can't add your own. If you want to add your own, you probably need to look at 14th gen Intel or an AMD laptop. I am personally pleased with the Yoga I bought - 14 inches, good battery life, runs cool, 32 GB of RAM, 4K UHD OLED and 1 TB SSD for $1.5K. The build quality and usability feel comparable to my M1 Pro MacBook Pro 16. The MacBook Pro has better speakers, bigger screen, and the performance is comparable. The M4 MacBook Pro would blow it out of the water but I don't need heavy performance for this laptop.

I think that there are competitive products in the Windows space for Macs today but the huge problem is product discovery. If you want to buy a MacBook, the options are relatively small and you know you're going to get great battery life, performance, build quality and support. It is much simpler than to look at Dell, HP, Samsung, Acer, Lenovo, MSI, Razer, Asus, GPD and other brands - each with their own records on build quality, support, warranty policies, etc. And some of these companies have a very wide range of products so figuring out where to start when they have five models with comparable specs in different price ranges means you have to figure out where they did the cost cutting.
 
id rather see Nvidia GPUs/AMD compared to Apple GPUs.
Then talk about prices!
PC can always be spec`d cheaper than Apple.
There is some really slow under powered processors out for PC that are way less then Apple processors.
I got a higher end Mac mini that has a hard time with games and the PC`s that will run these games are way cheaper than Apple.
So this all depends on configuration vs price as always and your productivity.
Also Microsoft tablets started cheaper than Apple tablets and now that they are going several generations later Microsoft raised its price to almost match over APPLE Ipads/Laptops
Not complaining just the way things are.
 
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When looking at base models or one spec bump on ultrabooks, this is probably true. When you start to bump up RAM and storage from base models, I think the cost delta between the PC and Mac really starts to diverge. You can get much better pricing on upgraded (RAM+storage) PC models in comparison to similar spec Mac. Also, PCs tend to go on sale a lot more than Macs, so even though the MSRP might be similar, a lot of consumers aren't paying that.

So I think the adage still holds for the most part.
This isn't true any more, when I last checked a few months ago Dell, HP, Lenovo offer almost ZERO customization and charge roughly the same prices as apple (or require you to go to the next higher model for much more then apple). They were all charging roughly 100-300$ for more RAM at similar intervals that apple has.

For example take Dell's Pro Max Plus 16 Inch (yes this is the real name) starts at 16 GB for $2,779 for the base model
MacBook Pro 16"
MBP 16" starts at $2,299 and 24 gb of RAM

To get 128 gb of RAM you need to switch to the M4 MAX and pay $900
For the dell its $1,895

EVEN WITH switching the processor the total is still cheaper:
MBP: $4,599.00 with 1 TB ssd
Dell: $4,816.11 with 512 GB SSD

Evening out the storage is $4,998.85 for the dell.

Lets max out the storage on both, its $975 to get 4 TB (its maximum) vs $900 for a mac.

Mind you, nearly $6000 for a nearly 1 inch thick laptop with a GARBAGE 1080p screen. If you want a similar screen your total will be: $6,417.84
 
id rather see Nvidia GPUs/AMD compared to Apple GPUs.
Then talk about prices!
PC can always be spec`d cheaper than Apple.
There is some really slow under powered processors out for PC that are way less then Apple processors.
I got a higher end Mac mini that has a hard time with games and the PC`s that will run these games are way cheaper than Apple.
So this all depends on configuration vs price as always and your productivity.
Also Microsoft tablets started cheaper than Apple tablets and now that they are going several generations later Microsoft raised its price to almost match over APPLE Ipads/Laptops
Not complaining just the way things are.

SS.png


Note that there are 11 in stock at my local store which implies that they are selling these things. I've no clue as to what kind of person is buying these though.

This laptop has 2 Gen 5 NVMe slots and 2 Gen 4 slots. So you can put 8 TB of storage at 14K+ MBps storage and another 8 TB of 7K+ MBps storage for a total of 16 TB of storage.

It has four memory slots so you can put in up to 192 GB of RAM.
 
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Because I've read that it's Apple that decides the prices. If other companies see that they can charge +100% markup on RAM because of Apple they will do so.
If Apple decided to make 24GB of RAM a base model MacBooks instead of 16GB other companies would follow.
Nonsense. Apple is the only 4th largest computer vendor and not in any position to dictate PC pricing. Plus of course Mac OS versus Win OS means the wannabe comparison is literally trying to compare Apples versus lemons.
 
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Several years ago, PC laptop makers used to give you 32 GB of RAM and 1 TB SSD in the midrange models as they had to give you something more because Apple Silicon was so good (and Apple's build quality was better too). What later happened is that the PC makers upped their game to make stuff with better features and now they're charging for it.

The PC companies also span the market from $200 Chromebooks to $6,000 gaming monsters like the MSI Titan 18. But there are a lot of sales in the $600 - $1,000 area for people on a budget and they give you fewer features so that the people that want those features will spend between $1,000 and $2,000 for them. If they have the money and the features are worth it to them, they'll go upmarket or add options.

The PC world also has a crazy number of discounts, coupons and sales. I saw a $1,800 ProArt PX 13 for sale for $1,250 at Best Buy three weeks ago. After the sale was over, it went back to the normal price of $1,800. Could you ever imagine getting 30% off a MacBook on a current year model? I've never run into a deal like that.

So if you want a nicer display, more RAM, more SSD, the ability to add SSD or RAM, then you're going to pay for it. The upgrades will cost less than what Apple charges for RAM and SSD. I received a Lenovo Yoga this week and going from 16 to 32 GB of RAM was $50. Going from 512 GB to 1 TB SSD was $50. I can upgrade the SSD to 2 TB buy just buying the NVMe SSD myself and replacing the one that came with it.

The model I got was about $2K. I paid $1,514 after coupons and discounts. Last year's model dropped to $1,300 after this year's model was launched. They cleared them out at fire sale prices. So the time of the year can matter a lot on the price you pay.

There is a lot of cheap crap in the PC world. I'm in r/Lenovo and people there complain about their laptops failing after six months or a year. But you find out that they're in other countries where the weather is a lot warmer and they don't have air condition or they paid $400 for the laptop. I don't think that I'd touch a lot of PC models on the lower end of the price spectrum if I wanted it to last more than a few years.

Intel put the RAM on the SoC for Lunar Lake so your RAM options are limited and you can't add your own. If you want to add your own, you probably need to look at 14th gen Intel or an AMD laptop. I am personally pleased with the Yoga I bought - 14 inches, good battery life, runs cool, 32 GB of RAM, 4K UHD OLED and 1 TB SSD for $1.5K. The build quality and usability feel comparable to my M1 Pro MacBook Pro 16. The MacBook Pro has better speakers, bigger screen, and the performance is comparable. The M4 MacBook Pro would blow it out of the water but I don't need heavy performance for this laptop.

I think that there are competitive products in the Windows space for Macs today but the huge problem is product discovery. If you want to buy a MacBook, the options are relatively small and you know you're going to get great battery life, performance, build quality and support. It is much simpler than to look at Dell, HP, Samsung, Acer, Lenovo, MSI, Razer, Asus, GPD and other brands - each with their own records on build quality, support, warranty policies, etc. And some of these companies have a very wide range of products so figuring out where to start when they have five models with comparable specs in different price ranges means you have to figure out where they did the cost cutting.
I don't even know what you are talking about you cannot even customize Yogas anymore.
Also Microsoft tablets started cheaper than Apple tablets and now that they are going several generations later Microsoft raised its price to almost match over APPLE Ipads/Laptops
Not complaining just the way things are.
They are significantly more expensive then most of Apple's line, even more outrageous is Microsoft's new surface keyboard is $500. Yes you read that correct.
 
This isn't true any more, when I last checked a few months ago Dell, HP, Lenovo offer almost ZERO customization and charge roughly the same prices as apple (or require you to go to the next higher model for much more then apple). They were all charging roughly 100-300$ for more RAM at similar intervals that apple has.

For example take Dell's Pro Max Plus 16 Inch (yes this is the real name) starts at 16 GB for $2,779 for the base model
MacBook Pro 16"
MBP 16" starts at $2,299 and 24 gb of RAM

To get 128 gb of RAM you need to switch to the M4 MAX and pay $900
For the dell its $1,895

EVEN WITH switching the processor the total is still cheaper:
MBP: $4,599.00 with 1 TB ssd
Dell: $4,816.11 with 512 GB SSD

Evening out the storage is $4,998.85 for the dell.

Lets max out the storage on both, its $975 to get 4 TB (its maximum) vs $900 for a mac.

Mind you, nearly $6000 for a nearly 1 inch thick laptop with a GARBAGE 1080p screen. If you want a similar screen your total will be: $6,417.84

The uplift from 16 GB of RAM to 32 GB is $80 here. I bought this two weeks ago and the uplift was $50. You can see that the uplift from 512 GB to 1 TB was $50 though you could probably just order the 512 and buy the 2 TB yourself and replace the 512.


SS 1.png
 
View attachment 2532374

Note that there are 11 in stock at my local store which implies that they are selling these things. I've no clue as to what kind of person is buying these though.

This laptop has 2 Gen 5 NVMe slots and 2 Gen 4 slots. So you can put 8 TB of storage at 14K+ MBps storage and another 8 TB of 7K+ MBps storage for a total of 16 TB of storage.

It has four memory slots so you can put in up to 192 GB of RAM.
18" + almost 8 lbs (and only God knows how big the charger which you will need 24/7 is). Id love to see the bag needed to carry this beast around lol.
 
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I don't even know what you are talking about you cannot even customize Yogas anymore.

They are significantly more expensive then most of Apple's line, even more outrageous is Microsoft's new surface keyboard is $500. Yes you read that correct.

My next post shows the customization page at Lenovo.com for the Lenovo Yoga 2-in-1 that I just bought.
 
The uplift from 16 GB of RAM to 32 GB is $80 here. I bought this two weeks ago and the uplift was $50. You can see that the uplift from 512 GB to 1 TB was $50 though you could probably just order the 512 and buy the 2 TB yourself and replace the 512.


View attachment 2532376
I appreciate you taking the time, I had tried earlier it must be a specific model their website is super convoluted but you are right.
 
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