Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
The point is that regardless of what the user agreement says, if a person does not leave one computer on while using the other then it is an odd concept to charge them for using identical knowledge again since they are simply applying a different CPU to the exact same knowledge. If we are buying rights to knowledge, I think it makes sense to say that the buyer could even install leopard on any computer they used for the duration of their use.

Your post makes a lot of sense, and I'm mostly in agreement. It's not an uncommon concept, though. Using another car analogy, even though you can only drive one at a time, each requires separate and unique licensing. (I'm aware of the holes in that particular argument, it was just the first thing that came to mind).

Remember, too, that the "rights" are those very specifically and narrowly granted, subject to particular conditions and limitations (that we've all flogged pretty well), and also subject to termination by the grantor at any time for any reason.

Actually, all the parsing of phrases and language in the EULA exemplifies the continuing argument in legislatures and the courts. They (the EULAs) are nasty, vague, cumbersome, and subject to too much interpretation by reasonable people. On that point alone they are lousy tools to grant use of something.

For that reason alone, I would almost be willing to be subjected to an authentication scheme that would abrogate the need for the rather foggy moral and legal quandary this presents.

Maybe a self-terminating subscription of say, 5 bucks a month? Over two years (an approximate lifespan between versions), that would bring the price to $120. Spreads the cost to the consumer (who's paying in inflated dollars over that span, BTW), and from Apple's accounting perspective, a real winner.
 
...Using another car analogy, even though you can only drive one at a time, each requires separate and unique licensing...
Do they? I thought the driver was licensed to drive and the cars were simply registered to the owner, who may not necessarily be the licensed user. I can't remember any specific clause in my license, but I'm pretty sure I can only drive one car at a time legally.
 
Automotive insurance, licensing and tax are subject to harsher penalties and we're talking about possible personal harm and the funds a society requires to run and maintain its infrastructure. It's a different kettle of fish.

Software licenses are merely a profit generating mechanism.
 
But imagine that you had to sign a contract when you bought gloves that said you could only use one at a time.


The difference is that gloves are sold in pairs.

License agreements are sold as one (unless you buy a multi-pack / family pack license.

But, staying with gloves:

The license remains the same as with software. You can install one glove on one hand at a time. Since they come in pairs, you can install them on two hands at a time (one on each hand). You can choose which / who's hands you want them on. But, you cannot install any glove on more than one hand at a time. If you want them on another hand, you must first remove it from the hand it is currently installed on.

So, that seems pretty consistent. One glove, one hand. Two gloves, two hands.

One software license, one computer. Two licenses, two computers.

Same thing.

Just like gloves, you can uninstall a given program from one computer and then install it on another.

Let the glove pirating begin :D
 
Thank you all for your patience with me, I should have found a way to better get to the root of it before I began.

CalBoy, I think you are correct that it is actually just a less efficient distribution scheme than otherwise might be possible. The property rights that my thesis actually deals with are particularly the intellectual properties of pharmaceutical companies and health care. Your conclusion sums it up: without patent laws the incentives to innovate become null.

For JohnNotBeatle, I can see how you car analogy does work. The license plate on a car taxes you to use that vehicle and you must pay for plates no matter how many vehicles you own. And that carries on to what you said about paying per month of use. I think we could even benefit if leopard packs came in all sizes, depending on user configurations, such as 2 comps 1 user, 3 comps 2 users, etc, like a phone plan. Although of course then EULAs would just get that much more complicated...

EDIT: Yeah, the gloves example is poor. I really just mean to say that I think the contract should be arranged differently.
 
The difference is that gloves are sold in pairs.

License agreements are sold as one (unless you buy a multi-pack / family pack license.

But, staying with gloves:

The license remains the same as with software. You can install one glove on one hand at a time. Since they come in pairs, you can install them on two hands at a time (one on each hand). You can choose which / who's hands you want them on. But, you cannot install any glove on more than one hand at a time. If you want them on another hand, you must first remove it from the hand it is currently installed on.

So, that seems pretty consistent. One glove, one hand. Two gloves, two hands...
What about muffs? can I use more than one muff at a time? what if I don't use my hands as the muffs owner wanted me to? would that be a violation? what if I had a friend join me and use the muff at the same time as me? do you think the muff supplier would complain?
 
CalBoy, I think you are correct that it is actually just a less efficient distribution scheme than otherwise might be possible. The property rights that my thesis actually deals with are particularly the intellectual properties of pharmaceutical companies and health care. Your conclusion sums it up: without patent laws the incentives to innovate become null.

Yeah, I really think that's what most people find irritating about EULA; the contract is a bit too restrictive. There probably are better ways to do it, but the costs of administration would probably nullify any possible gains.

EDIT: Yeah, the gloves example is poor. I really just mean to say that I think the contract should be arranged differently.

How about an example using books? Let's say that I write a book and sell it to you. Now, assuming that there are 4 people in your home, it would be rather impossible for all of them to read the book simultaneously right? You must all take turns. I think that EULA is after a similar goal. It's ok to recycle the software onto different computers (like sharing a book) but it must be done one at a time (like reading a book). However, books have that built-in advantage of being difficult to copy and bind (it would be a pain-I think most people would shell out the extra $10 for a second copy); software doesn't have that built-in defense. It's very easy to copy software, and very easy to use it multiple times without paying for it.
 
What about muffs? can I use more than one muff at a time? what if I don't use my hands as the muffs owner wanted me to? would that be a violation? what if I had a friend join me and use the muff at the same time as me? do you think the muff supplier would complain?

Yes, I think the muff supplier would complain, if two men want to use the muff at the same time -- it's gonna cost you extra.

And you better watch those wandering hands if you don't pay for the merchandise. :eek:

Edit: Oops, got the wrong definition of a word again. :(
 
I like the book example, I believe it wins. I should be glad apple does this instead of tracking my use.


What if someone distributes the mittens through torrents? Is it okay to be the receiver of said mittens but not the giver?
 
I like the book example, I believe it wins. I should be glad apple does this instead of tracking my use.

*Bows*

What's my prize?:p


What if someone distributes the mittens through torrents? Is it okay to be the receiver of said mittens but not the giver?

I would rather think not. It's an accessory to a breach of contract (and it also happens to be larceny). If the original writer wanted the software to be torrented, wouldn't they have done it themselves?;)
 
...How about an example using books? Let's say that I write a book and sell it to you. Now, assuming that there are 4 people in your home, it would be rather impossible for all of them to read the book simultaneously right?...
WHat if one of your 4 was deaf and a skilled lip reader, and another is a bit stupid and moves his lips while reading. He's not intentionally sharing the story, but the deaf guy is essentially using it at the same time, has anybody broken the law?

Also once they've all read the book, say a "Dummies Guide To Programming" they can all go and use the information contained within the book to program PCs at the same time. Should that be allowed?
 
I like the book example, I believe it wins. I should be glad apple does this instead of tracking my use.


What if someone distributes the mittens through torrents? Is it okay to be the receiver of said mittens but not the giver?

Nah, you'll be fine.

Don't expect them to be very warm though. After being shoved through hundreds of thousands of data lines, re-routed, and redirected, and then passed back and forth a few million times, I think they'll be rather thread-bare by the time you get them.

After a few thousand people exchange clothing this way, the internet will probably start crawling due to the thick tufts of fluff clogging the lines.

Let's see your computer spit out that fur ball :eek:
 
WHat if one of your 4 was deaf and a skilled lip reader, and another is a bit stupid and moves his lips while reading. He's not intentionally sharing the story, but the deaf guy is essentially using it at the same time, has anybody broken the law?

Well that seems perfectly reasonable, as EULA doesn't stop two people (or more) from sharing that computer, just as multiple people can share a book. I think it would be rather hard to share software in the same way you describe the book being shared though.

Also once they've all read the book, say a "Dummies Guide To Programming" they can all go and use the information contained within the book to program PCs at the same time. Should that be allowed?

This is always allowed. They've gained knowledge from the book, and now they're applying it to new things. Writers know this, even software writers. I use OS X to create new things. The writer doesn't care about this; the writer only cares that I haven't short-changed him by usurping his right to sell his own material (which I would do if I bought a single copy for five machines, or torrented my single copy for others to get for free).
 
I just bought a 2.4 ghz MacBook Pro (delivered today) from B&H. Although it was advertised as coming with Leopard, I noted as soon as I booted it up that it was actually 10.4.1 Tiger. I called B&H and they readily acknowledged the error and are sending me Leopard. So, I have two licenses (or will have when it arrives) so after doing all the new-machine software updates, I went ahead and installed Leopard on it from the disk I bought from Apple and installed on my MacPro. It installed with no problems, and is running fine.
 
If you install an unlicensed copy of Mac OS X, your machine will turn into a Dell.

And all of a sudden, the OS will crash, hardware will fail, and everyone you turn to for fixes and repairs will tell you in broken English with thick Indian accents to update your anti-virus software, apply the latest IE security patches, and reinstall everything from the restore disk. Also, your startup sound will scream out "Dude, you're goin' to Hell"
 
Will everybody who deems it perfectly legal and ethically "the right thing to do" to buy a single license and use it as if it were a double license, please raise his/her hand?

No-one? Thank you. Next topic.
 
Apple karmic response, you do it and you will start getting bad Apple Care service, dud machines time after time, people that cannot speak English when when you call in for service, etc.

Apple tracks you and retaliates ... ;)

Just look at all the threads where people complain about how many times in a row they have gotten bad Macs.

Ha! I LOL'd at that.
 
Seem like typically americans, this is why we have bush

First, I personally know both Steve Wozniak along with Steve Jobs. I was taught how to hack pac bell by one of them, you can guess witch one. second Apple flat out STOLE everything you see in thier OS.

Now for an argument that makes sense. If you go to a pizza restaurant and get a goat cheese pizza, and then go home and replicate it with you own kitchen, that is both legal and moral. but if you then sell this for a profit then it becomes a legal problem. In order for ANY of these laws that all of you UNEDUCATED people are talking about, there are certain parts that you have to prove in a court of Law. The most important is that in duplicating the OS, The company can show that there is a loss in profit. The only legal way (the world over) to show this in copy write law is by selling the OS to people that would otherwise purchased it from Apple. The one other way is by producing something with it that you can profit from. Like the well known photoshop, you steel it, make photos with it, and then sell the photos. that is illegal. But to this day there is absolutely NO law that prevents you from taking ANY pice of information and using it. If I go around telling all of you my cure for cancer, even if I have a paten on it, you are still within you rights to use that information to cure yourself of cancer. It is so sad so see such a lack of intelligence of people that can at very least turn on a computer. I also didn't know that republicans used Apples.

I would like to see any of you who are protecting apple try and tell me that what they are doing is MORAL. If I buy it, I do with it whatever I want within the laws of the land. That they try to get you to agree to a contract that is in total violation with both state and federal law and have fooled you all, flat out illegally coned people out of billions of dollars, how do you drones still write this gibberish. shame on all of you. Didn't you learn in high school history to always question everything.

I use a mac, and a pc, and all OS's, when possible, or when I feel that I will be violating OUR LAWS of THE STATE OR THE FEDRAL LAW, NOT APPLES rules, I pay for the OS or software.

To all, do what you feel is right, think for yourself and don't asks questions of people you don't know when you can go visit your local Law library.

Ha! I LOL'd at that.
 
First, I personally know both Steve Wozniak along with Steve Jobs. I was taught how to hack pac bell by one of them, you can guess witch one. second Apple flat out STOLE everything you see in thier OS.

Now for an argument that makes sense. If you go to a pizza restaurant and get a goat cheese pizza, and then go home and replicate it with you own kitchen, that is both legal and moral. but if you then sell this for a profit then it becomes a legal problem. In order for ANY of these laws that all of you UNEDUCATED people are talking about, there are certain parts that you have to prove in a court of Law. The most important is that in duplicating the OS, The company can show that there is a loss in profit. The only legal way (the world over) to show this in copy write law is by selling the OS to people that would otherwise purchased it from Apple. The one other way is by producing something with it that you can profit from. Like the well known photoshop, you steel it, make photos with it, and then sell the photos. that is illegal. But to this day there is absolutely NO law that prevents you from taking ANY pice of information and using it. If I go around telling all of you my cure for cancer, even if I have a paten on it, you are still within you rights to use that information to cure yourself of cancer. It is so sad so see such a lack of intelligence of people that can at very least turn on a computer. I also didn't know that republicans used Apples.

I would like to see any of you who are protecting apple try and tell me that what they are doing is MORAL. If I buy it, I do with it whatever I want within the laws of the land. That they try to get you to agree to a contract that is in total violation with both state and federal law and have fooled you all, flat out illegally coned people out of billions of dollars, how do you drones still write this gibberish. shame on all of you. Didn't you learn in high school history to always question everything.

I use a mac, and a pc, and all OS's, when possible, or when I feel that I will be violating OUR LAWS of THE STATE OR THE FEDRAL LAW, NOT APPLES rules, I pay for the OS or software.

To all, do what you feel is right, think for yourself and don't asks questions of people you don't know when you can go visit your local Law library.

Very good job of sounding like you have a clue about something which you have none. Congratulations.

Do you know what a contract is? Are you aware that breaking a contract makes you liable? Are you aware that if, for example you have a contract to pay someone $10,000 for a car, and you take the car and don't give them the $10,000 that is against the law? It's called stealing. Maybe you ought to look in the law books that aren't pop-ups. :rolleyes:

Oh, and I don't claim to know Jobs or Wozniak personally. ROTFL. That was a good touch.
 
Enough is enough!

Can we please create a sticky post about this f--king topic and immediately and forever delete all posts that begin with "can I install my single user copy of MacOS whatever on the 93 Macs in my trailer park..."

I see a post every couple of freakin' days asking this same (insipid) question.

Yes, it's possible. No, don't do it. Now move on...


Christ.
 
I personally know God, who taught me how to hack the Acorn Electron and the Archimedes, and he just told me the goat is pretty annoyed at having his cheese cooked. Oh and he also told me that he's a Republican and uses a Mac Pro 32 core, and the Pope has a pimple on his ass and wears Doc Marten boots.

Next!
 
I personally know God, who taught me how to hack the Acorn Electron and the Archimedes, and he just told me the goat is pretty annoyed at having his cheese cooked. Oh and he also told me that he's a Republican and uses a Mac Pro 32 core, and the Pope has a pimple on his ass and wears Doc Marten boots.

Next!

HA! Love it!

Lets just say:
So my friend finally buys a mac after me convincing him that macs are seriously the best computer to have! He gets his mac home with the preloaded Leopard on, finds out that what people complain about most about Leopard is happening to his computer. Now after convincing him to get a mac, he is finding reason to hate macs since Windows worked for him perfectly(vista). He is hating the mac experience and is ready to get rid of it and go back to his PC with perfectly running Vista.

1. Take advantage of the situation buy the computer from him for a discount of course (I see 1/2 off sale coming)

2. Let him suffer and complain about Macs until an update comes out and hopefully he still likes the mac after all the bugs

3. Give him my copy of Tiger to HELP apple in converting a member of our mac cult and keeping him to buy more apple products because he finds that Tiger is awesome and loves macs and tells everyone about macs and how everyone should get a mac and he wants to marry his mac.

Oh but wait! Sorry, I cant give you my copy of Tiger because of the User agreement. One copy, one computer. So instead he is stuck either getting rid of the mac and telling everyone his mac experience was terrible and reinforces himself and others that PCs are better then macs
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.