Why do I want to be a sucker?

[Bubba Satori]

Between that and power, Opterons have fallen way back.

Sorry, that's wrong.

http://arstechnica.com/hardware/new...ai-amds-45nm-server-cpu-four-months-later.ars

 

[belvdr]

Sorry, that's wrong.

http://arstechnica.com/hardware/new...ai-amds-45nm-server-cpu-four-months-later.ars

And look at their desktop counterparts. A year ago, we tested running VMWare ESX on Opteron and it didn't run as well (running about 8-10 Windows 2003 hosts) as it did on Intel. I don't know why and really didn't care because the Intel kit was a bit cheaper anyway.

There's more to this than just a single proc from a single mfr.

EDIT: here's another review, and the results do look more favorable to AMD, as long as you aren't doing any heavy computation:

http://techreport.com/articles.x/15905/13

The new Opterons are clearly more competitive now, but they were still somewhat slower overall in the HPC- and workstation-oriented applications we tested, with the lone exception of MyriMatch. In many cases, Shanghai at 2.7GHz was slightly behind the Xeon L5430 at 2.66GHz. The Opteron does best when it's able to take advantage of its superior system architecture and native quad-core design, and it suffers most by comparison in applications that are more purely compute-bound, where the Xeons generally have both the IPC and clock frequency edge.

At the end of the day, you need to test this before just assuming one report is valid.

 

[cmaier]

Here I am, very happy with my Motorola G4 processor inside my Mac mini, 1.42 GHz, only dreaming what Nehalem or Opteron could do.

It's like comparing having Heidi Klum or Tyra Banks in your bed. Dudes, forget about it, your arguments and comparisons as to what is better is silly. It's not much different from the gun forums where people compare different .50 cal pistols and which one has more stopping power. Or if the kick on a "nine" is less than a .357 and how that affects target practice. I mean, really, who cares? My Boxster is faster than your NSX ... no, no, my NSX is faster than your Boxter. I can have two O's in an hour, but Sue Johansson said a well prepared male can have three. Who cares?

I'm not arguing about which is better - just which is more fragrant. That's different.

I drive a Boxster S, and it's slower than your NSX, but it corners much better

 

[cmaier]

All I smell is... an opteron loyalist that doesn't like being told their baby is ugly.

Dude, you are SO wrong. I am extremely anti-AMD, and from the moment I left, I've bought nothing but Intel machines. I'll stand firmly behind the first Opterons; at the time they blew everything else away - but for the last year or 18 months, Intel has clocked those guys. I haven't worked there since Nov. 2006.

I just hate unsubstantiated assertions.

 

[nanofrog]

I am extremely anti-AMD, and from the moment I left, I've bought nothing but Intel machines. I'll stand firmly behind the first Opterons; at the time they blew everything else away - but for the last year or 18 months, Intel has clocked those guys. I haven't worked there since Nov. 2006.

It's ashame they couldn't maintain their momentum. IIRC, they had some really good talent at one point, and were able to utilize it.

Could you ellaborate on what happened, at least in general?

 

[cmaier]

It's ashame they couldn't maintain their momentum. IIRC, they had some really good talent at one point, and were able to utilize it.

Could you ellaborate on what happened, at least in general?

Well, I have my view of it, and I'm sure others have equally valid and different viewpoints. My perspective: the initial chip (including creating x86-64 from a blank sheet of paper) was done by a team of 15-20 people. I was initially responsible for the integer and floating point pipelines, and then for the integer pipelines and out-of-order circuitry. I then moved on to be in charge of our design methodology. To do what we did with so few people, each person has to really understand large portions of the chip and has to do lots of different jobs.


Anyway, we got that first chip done, but a few months late (in the end, it may have taken us 6 months longer to get to market than management wanted). The team that did it was also the last remnants of a start-up (Nexgen) that had been bought back in the K6 days and which had done K6.

I think management decided that we wouldn't have been late if we had been willing to let "the rest of AMD" get involved, plus our CEO/founder retired, and the headquarters shifted from California (where we were) to Texas, so, essentially, our team was broken up. Our CTO left (who had been instrumental in the opteron stuff - I worked for him), and lots of other people left either voluntarily or not. The new management started ripping stuff up and starting from scratch, and reassigning stuff to other teams.

Since then, it seems to me, improvements to the chips have been fairly incremental, and there hasn't really been anything revolutionary. I was pretty much fighting with management every day about nearly every technical and methodological decision they were making, so I left. I think the stock was around $30 on my last day

 

[nanofrog]

Well, I have my view of it, and I'm sure others have equally valid and different viewpoints. My perspective: the initial chip (including creating x86-64 from a blank sheet of paper) was done by a team of 15-20 people. I was initially responsible for the integer and floating point pipelines, and then for the integer pipelines and out-of-order circuitry. I then moved on to be in charge of our design methodology. To do what we did with so few people, each person has to really understand large portions of the chip and has to do lots of different jobs.


Anyway, we got that first chip done, but a few months late (in the end, it may have taken us 6 months longer to get to market than management wanted). The team that did it was also the last remnants of a start-up (Nexgen) that had been bought back in the K6 days and which had done K6.

I think management decided that we wouldn't have been late if we had been willing to let "the rest of AMD" get involved, plus our CEO/founder retired, and the headquarters shifted from California (where we were) to Texas, so, essentially, our team was broken up. Our CTO left (who had been instrumental in the opteron stuff - I worked for him), and lots of other people left either voluntarily or not. The new management started ripping stuff up and starting from scratch, and reassigning stuff to other teams.

Since then, it seems to me, improvements to the chips have been fairly incremental, and there hasn't really been anything revolutionary. I was pretty much fighting with management every day about nearly every technical and methodological decision they were making, so I left. I think the stock was around $30 on my last day

Ouch. Management somehow always makes the same mistakes. Push too hard, split things up, and finally run the talent off.

 

[theDUB]

...I was a microprocessor designer at AMD for 10 years. One year they gave me a free opteron dual core processor. So I bought a thermaltake case, a massive power supply, an asus motherboard, hard drives, video card, a copy of OEM windows, a bottle of arctic silver, a heatsink, RAM, etc., and put together a system for myself.

The time it took me to pick out the parts, order them from newegg, unbox them, assemble them, test everything, update the motherboard firmware a few times, install the OS, deal with little incompatibilities between firmware and graphics card, etc., easily took a few days of my time (and, again, I'm a guy who knows what I'm doing). Figure 24 man-hours. My time is worth a lot (now that I'm an attorney, it's worth much more), but one doesn't have to come up with a big hourly rate before the "bargain" of building one's own system doesn't look so special.

Add in the fact that finished system sure ain't as pretty as the MP, and the fact that it runs Windows (huge fact right there), and to me the MP is a hell of a bargain, even at the current price/performance ratio. (And don't give me the hackintosh argument - the reason I switched to Apple is I'm done with the constant annoyance of having to hold everything together with duct tape and baling wire.)

Taking the the time to assemble your own machine makes the DIY approach MORE attractive if you enjoy that sort of thing.
The machine I'm on right now was built by me. Yeah, it took a little time, working out all the kinks, like you said, but it was fun. Since I originally built it I have swapped out different parts and changed around the configuration. I enjoy it.
Given the choice between a $4000 finished product and a $2000 pile of parts I will take the parts every time; I save money and I get to have fun.

...The point is simple, don't waste your time with comparisons, clever analogies, or debate. The OP's question is not a valid question. I'm not a tech expert and thus I'm not talking about the computer parts. I'm talking about simple logic and economics. Regardless of the product, it is never valid to compare the price of a whole and finished consumer product to something that you are going to build on your own. If you can build/mod/assemble a product yourself then you are obviously going to be able to do it cheaper because you are cutting out the manufacturer's costs associated with the effort, time, and knowledge it takes to produce the product. And, as others have mentioned, marketing costs are also included in the price of any product.

So, the bottom line is whether you are satisfied with what you can produce on your own or if you want to buy a "finished product." If saving money is your objective and building something on your own will meet your needs then that's probably the best decision. Don't spin your wheels asking questions that don't matter. It'll save you and us a lot of time.

This post. It is the winner.

 

[22Hertz]

How about the mark up from the manufacturer and the re-seller for the products bought to assemble said PC...Apple gets these parts much cheaper than any consumer could get them for.

Also there is a difference in electronic components. Anywhere from consumer to industrial to military spec'd components can be used with varying levels of voltage/current, temperature and sometimes other tolerance allowances. Which level of components Apple chooses to use would be more telling of justifying the cost of ownership as the price increases for better components.

I don't think $3000 is a lot considering what you get, and I share some of Steve's passion for perfection of form and function, but I also understand different folks sometimes have very different needs or requirements or budgets and simply cant justify the price.

I would also point out some Apple fans in this post appear to have 'blind allegiance' which is almost scary for any innate object or company (whose goal is to make a profit from you the customer..they don't love you back in other words)
Just an observation

mscriv has a very good point- it isn't valid to compare a home-built system to a factory system. We are talking hours of labor (fun factor aside) that isn't reflected in the DIY price point. In addition, I'd like to add one aspect to the ongoing trollfest:the OP is not taking resale into account.

Macs have a much higher resale value that PCs, particularly home-built PCs. If you sell your old Mac and buy up to newer equipment, your cost of ownership is lower. Google "mac resale" and you will see some articles done buy journalists showing that Macs hold value very well. PCs do not, and they depreciate at a much quicker rate. A home built machine would most likely be parted-out, and would fetch little resale money.

I'm not against PCs, but the purchase prices isn't the only thing to be focusing on. As many have pointed out, whether it is the time and money spent configuring a Windows box, maintaining (e.g. anti-virus), added to the resale costs, the price difference over the lifetime of ownership decreases.

 

[SnowLeopard2008]

You get what you pay for. A ready-to-go system out of the box or boxes of parts/screws. Spending time to assemble the tower and installing Windows/Linux; you'd probably earn whatever extra premium you paid for a Mac in that amount of time.

 

[queshy]

Alright OP, build me a machine that looks, feels, smells, acts and works exactly like an iMac does and I will pay you $100 more than what you claim newegg is charging.

 

[HSJR]

Taking the the time to assemble your own machine makes the DIY approach MORE attractive if you enjoy that sort of thing.
The machine I'm on right now was built by me. Yeah, it took a little time, working out all the kinks, like you said, but it was fun. Since I originally built it I have swapped out different parts and changed around the configuration. I enjoy it.
Given the choice between a $4000 finished product and a $2000 pile of parts I will take the parts every time; I save money and I get to have fun.

I understand how beautiful to build your own pc; but the problem its not a MAC. Do not compare mac with pc, you can build the same configurations that mac has at very cheap price (you can use second hand parts to build your own pc to save more money), but you can not acheive mac's quality, reliability & beautiful design.

 

[theDUB]

I understand how beautiful to build your own pc; but the problem its not a MAC. Do not compare mac with pc, you can build the same configurations that mac has at very cheap price (you can use second hand parts to build your own pc to save more money), but you can not acheive mac's quality, reliability & beautiful design.

quality? yes.
reliability? definitely.
beautiful design? absolutely not. my tower hides under my desk anyway.

 

[andrew upstairs]

I buy Macs because I prefer them. Is that so crazy?

full disclosure: I also own a Vista PC (and can't understand why people would prefer that, regardless of price)

 

[HSJR]

quality? yes.
reliability? definitely.
beautiful design? absolutely not. my tower hides under my desk anyway.

I disagree with you, design is critical part of any product. Everyone can build a computer, but whose design is the best? Even for yourself, whenever you build your own pc; don't you look at the towers to see which one has the best look, do you?!

 

[theDUB]

I disagree with you, design is critical part of any product. Everyone can build a computer, but whose design is the best? Even for yourself, whenever you build your own pc; don't you look at the towers to see which one has the best look, do you?!

I could honestly not care less what my desktop PC looks like. I have had the same case for years. It's an old HP that I took all the plastic bits off. It is literally just a gray metal box. I just keep swapping different parts in it.
Laptop, yes, it's nice to carry something around that looks nice.
The fact that the MP looks good is just a nice side effect of it being an Apple product.

 

[rlb2444]

How Much is Service Worth

I am a recent converter to Mac. I needed a new laptop and spent hours configuring a Dell XPS and an Alienware. The Alienware was close to the price that I paid for my MBP but the Dell was half. Both were loaded with Vista and needed antivirus software and I suspect most of the problems that I have had in the past were related to both of these. I spent hours at an Apple store and frankly they were quieter and knowing that good, reliable and quick support was available it was a no brainer for me. I have used the call in service and it works. No insult intended but I spoke to an American that I could understand every word that he said. I didn't waste his time and he didn't waste mine. I reached a person within a minute of dialing and that pleased me as well. Try calling HP and you will know what I am talking about.

Did I pay twice as much as I could have purchased a good laptop? Absolutely. Is it worth it to have one place to go for hardware and software issues? Absolutely.

 

[HSJR]

I could honestly not care less what my desktop PC looks like. I have had the same case for years. It's an old HP that I took all the plastic bits off. It is literally just a gray metal box. I just keep swapping different parts in it.
Laptop, yes, it's nice to carry something around that looks nice.
The fact that the MP looks good is just a nice side effect of it being an Apple product.

No wondering why design is not important for you; unlike you design is very important & I never buy anything unless it is well designed.

 

[HSJR]

I am a recent converter to Mac. I needed a new laptop and spent hours configuring a Dell XPS and an Alienware. The Alienware was close to the price that I paid for my MBP but the Dell was half. Both were loaded with Vista and needed antivirus software and I suspect most of the problems that I have had in the past were related to both of these. I spent hours at an Apple store and frankly they were quieter and knowing that good, reliable and quick support was available it was a no brainer for me. I have used the call in service and it works. No insult intended but I spoke to an American that I could understand every word that he said. I didn't waste his time and he didn't waste mine. I reached a person within a minute of dialing and that pleased me as well. Try calling HP and you will know what I am talking about.

Did I pay twice as much as I could have purchased a good laptop? Absolutely. Is it worth it to have one place to go for hardware and software issues? Absolutely.

Mac's customer services are among the best; even in Dubai, they can assist you by phone, so you do not have to travel to them (even if you are out of warranty). Unlike dell, where is nobody answers the phone & keeps you for an hour waiting to get served.

 

[opeter]

quality? yes.
reliability? definitely.
beautiful design? absolutely not. my tower hides under my desk anyway.

I don't know about you, but I really like the design of this computer case, that I just ordered (as i already wrote in this thread)

 

[MacVidCards]

I don't know about you, but I really like the design of this computer case, that I just ordered (as i already wrote in this thread)

That IS nice.

Is that from the Cinda Bloch collection?

I am used to seeing them in gray.

 

[Pika]

I don't know about you, but I really like the design of this computer case, that I just ordered (as i already wrote in this thread)

http://www.silverstonetek.com/images/products/tj08/TJ08B-3-4.jpg

Looks like a random plastic beige box painted in black.

 

[opeter]

That IS nice.

Is that from the Cinda Bloch collection?

I am used to seeing them in gray.

I don't understand. Sorry about my english. What collection do you mean?

This is just a MicroATX case, with simple (minimal) design.

 

[PowerPaw]

If you are trying to appeal to the designers among us its not going to work, its a PC case with an assymetric anodized or anodized-look facia

Your best bet is design and build one yourself

Interestingly I read about a new Samsung netbook recently that had a suprisingly refreshing look for a non-Apple designed PC product. Evidently it has borrowed several design features we have seen before

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/03/23/samsung_n310/

Turns out it was apparently designed by Naoto Fukasawa.

 

[ekwipt]

This is a similar specced pc from Australia vs the MacPro Quad, the Pc is probably slightly better specced as the ram is faster, the case is pretty nice looking as well:

Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD5 1366 SLI/Crossfire DDR3 Only
Intel Core i7 940 2.93Ghz 8Mb Cache Quad Core 45nm Retail Box
OCZ XMP PC3-10666 1333Mhz XTC CL 7-7-7 (3x 2Gb) 6Gb Kit for X58
Sapphire HD4870 512Mb DDR5 PCI-E
Pioneer DVR-216BK D/Layer 20x DVD+-RW SATA Black incl. Nero Essentials
Western Digital WD6401AALS Black 640Gb 32Mb SATA II
Lian Li TYR X-2000B Aluminium Case Black
Corsair HX-1000 1000w Modular PSU
Logitech MX5500 Bluetooth Keyboard & Laser Mouse

$3,633.00

One 2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
6GB (3x2GB)
640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
Apple Wireless Mighty Mouse
Apple Wireless Keyboard

$ 6,269.00