Why do people not think aesthetics are important?

[awdougherty]

I appreciate the aesthetics, but what annoys me is how much the price for those aesthetics increases over the life of a Mac product cycle. At this point, Apple is asking their customers to pay a very high premium for the Apple experience since the internal tech is so dated.

So I like the Apple aesthetics, but I don't feel it's worth what they are asking me to pay for that aesthetic at the moment (which is why I'm waiting).

 

[Arran]

... Does design itself justify the price premium? ...

Hate to be pedantic, but that question you posed in your original post is at odds with the title of your post. Namely, "Why do people not think aesthetics are important?"

I'd argue that "aesthetics" are just a little part of design (and can quite legitimately be ignored if the brief calls for it). I think that's perhaps why there's so much turbulence in the responses - because folks are answering different questions? Maybe you could clarify?

For me, personally, aesthetics can be worth it - as long as the overall design 'works'.

 

[Jaro65]

And these are Dell's aluminum laptops.

http://tinyurl.com/25kkw4

The funny thing is this "tingling sensation" is something that can be experienced on Apple laptops when they're used overseas. It was discussed here on macrumors in another thread some time ago. It is apparently a grounding issue. I experienced this on a number of occasions while overseas. Nothing uncomfortable, but kind of interesting to touch your MBP and feel the tingle.

 

[Hellishness]

No, not visual design -- at least not for a computer, for me. But interface design and usability do. System design and architecture (which is not a visual thing but about how the pieces of the OS work together) matters a hell of a lot.

i value them 50/50, maybe more towards looks.

I never have. I can find good quality, flattering clothing that makes me look professional and will last me years for a heck of a lot less than that, and have no interest in spending money just to be "stylish" in something that's going to be outdated in 3 months.

i've never bought very expensive clothes either, but you can find good quality with good looks. i buy $60 Fallen shoes. they last years and i think they look absolutely amazing. i would spend money to be stylish, and it sure as hell doesn't get outdated in 3 months.

I'm currently living with an ugly couch because it was free and I can't afford anything else right now. But I also think it's a different matter. How much time do you spend looking at the outside of your computer?

no comment because couches really don't matter to me.

Ugly inside or outside? Inside only if I had the time and money to fix it up and make it appealing. Outside I couldn't care less. How much time do you spend looking at the outside of your house?

thats ridiculous. would you want people coming over to your house that is all brown shingles and COVERED in ivy thats large pretty on the inside, or an amazing looking house thats average on the inside? i pick the latter...

Absolutely. What would it matter what my car looks like if it gets me places efficiently? I'd be much more concerned about how well the engine ran, its fuel efficiency, how often it needed servicing, how ergonomic the dashboard layout was... etc. Again, how much time do you spend admiring the outside of your car, and if it's a lot, don't you have anything better to do with your time?

in my family, i have a BMW M3, 13 year old Honda accord and an 8 year old Honda Odyssey. the Accord is perfect for driving every day, average looking and fairly comfortable, and extremely reliable. the odyssey is horridly ugly, but its just SOO practical! we would've missed out on many vacations without that car. the M3 is amazing looking and amazingly fast. its not especially ergonomic, but people literally move out of your way on the highway. i think that's worth it.

Are you sure people buy them because they're attractive? Not because they're more usable, lower maintenance, hold their value better, and come with software that makes it really easy to deal with your photos and home videos?

maybe not ONLY because they're attractive, but it definitely plays a big role. i honestly people who would rather have a PC than a Mac are the kind of people who would be inclines to buy a ugly car or house.
The aesthetics don't hurt (all things including price and build quality and OS being equal, who would choose the uglier computer over the pretty one?) but I doubt they're the driving factor behind most purchases, or the reason people are willing to spend more than they would on a PC (and keep in mind that except at the end of a product cycle they tend to be very competitively priced to a truly similar-specced PC).

replies in bold
i would (and will, see sig) spend more mainly for the looks. i want the OS after using PCs all my life (and i don't like em), but looks are very important.

 

[gødspeed]

I do value aesthetics, especially the kind you see on the current line of unibody macbooks -- simple, clean, and minimalistic. But the main reason why I opted to get a Mac was Final Cut Pro, and some other applications to a lesser extent.

 

[drjsway]

When I buy expensive clothes, it's mainly from obscure designers with a more avant-garde style. I don't follow the latest fashion trends that get outdated quickly.

Of course budget is a consideration and there's nothing wrong with getting a car that saves money at gas. My point is that a lot of people here think it's silly to pay more for a laptop that looks good even though we do it for everything else we buy (clothes, car, house, furniture, etc.).

 

[Arran]

When I buy expensive clothes, it's mainly from obscure designers with a more avant-garde style. I don't follow the latest fashion trends that get outdated quickly.

Of course budget is a consideration and there's nothing wrong with getting a car that saves money at gas. My point is that a lot of people here think it's silly to pay more for a laptop that looks good even though we do it for everything else we buy (clothes, car, house, furniture, etc.).

Okay, here's one theory (and I have others) on why someone might chose a mac laptop over a typical windows laptop: It's less intimidating.

The mac has:

• clean smooth surfaces,
• an obvious power button,
• a few ports,
• a simple cd slot without any hardware buttons (other than the eject one cleverly hidden in the keyboard!)
• and that's about it.

In comparison my windows laptop has:

• all sorts of moulded plastic ridges, grooves, seams and panels which may, or may not, have a function (other than collecting gunk!),
• ports all over the place,
• a power button in close proximity to three others that look very similar,
• a cd tray with two buttons and a wee hole to stick a paperclip in(!),
• flashing lights galore,
• a sharp, ugly catch that looks a tad hostile,
• more switches galore round the sides,
• a bottom surface covered in enough screws and removable access plates to make it look like some sort of WWII military apparatus!

Thinking about it, this might be why Apple is removing the keyboard from the iPad? QWERTY keyboards can be intimidating to non computer-literate folks. Remove the keyboard and there's one less thing to scare them in the store? Who knows?

 

[Gabriel GR]

Aesthetics are important. A well made, slim, nice looking solid computer attracts me to work on and makes the experience more pleasant.

If you have to spend 10+ hours on a computer it better be one you like.

For this I am willing to pay 200-300 dollars more since it's the amount apple charges for similar specs.

 

[archre]

All that is highly individual.

To me Lenovo's ThinkPads are highly aesthetic machines, simply because they look quite solid.
Most aesthetic laptops are ruggedized ones, have a look at Dell's Latitude XFR:

I think they look like being from some scifi movie.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

Quite right that design can command a certain price. However, lets look at the average person for a minute.

They need to be able to write documents and email documents. And maybe listen to music. An ugly looking Dell can do that for $500. A nice looking Macbook can do that for $1000.

So if the ability to use your tool is worth $500, is the cost of a nicer looking tool worth double the price?

To many people, the answer is no. The main function of the tool is to do a job, not to look pretty. Otherwise we would have diamond encrusted hoes. So maybe you value aesthetics and are willing to spend more money for a nicer looking tool, but at what point does the price you pay for the aesthetics overshadow the price for the basic tool itself.

People (such as myself) who claim that Apple hardware is overpriced, just don't think that aesthetics should be a 100% price premium for the tool.

 

[iLMAO]

All that is highly individual.

To me Lenovo's ThinkPads are highly aesthetic machines, simply because they look quite solid.
Most aesthetic laptops are ruggedized ones, have a look at Dell's Latitude XFR:

I think they look like being from some scifi movie.

Off topic, they're still Core 2 Duo as of today. I liked the looks on the other hand !

 

[Gabriel GR]

Quite right that design can command a certain price. However, lets look at the average person for a minute.

They need to be able to write documents and email documents. And maybe listen to music. An ugly looking Dell can do that for $500. A nice looking Macbook can do that for $1000.

So if the ability to use your tool is worth $500, is the cost of a nicer looking tool worth double the price?

To many people, the answer is no. The main function of the tool is to do a job, not to look pretty. Otherwise we would have diamond encrusted hoes. So maybe you value aesthetics and are willing to spend more money for a nicer looking tool, but at what point does the price you pay for the aesthetics overshadow the price for the basic tool itself.

People (such as myself) who claim that Apple hardware is overpriced, just don't think that aesthetics should be a 100% price premium for the tool.

You are right about that. Although I think that people who just write documents, chat, and listen to music should not look at a custom computer/OS company. The mac is a premium product with its pros and cons. When someone doesn't need the pros and is looking for value for his money he/she should look at other manufacturers.

 

[Winni]

Apple has always marketed itself to artists and other creative professionals. Anybody with an ounce of creativity would make design the main priority when purchasing a computer.

No. The most important thing for creative people is whether this computer helps them to boost their creativity. Nobody buys a tool because it looks nice - a tool primarily has to be useful for a given purpose.

People pay millions for a Picasso painting just because it's aesthetically pleasing, yet Apple charges a small premium for their design and they are overpriced?

Your statement is a typical romantic fantasy that has nothing to do with real life. The five or six people on the world who have enough money to buy a Picasso do so because somebody -advised- them to INVEST their money in Picasso. They don't care about Picasso's aesthetics, they only care about the material value of his work.

A better comparison would be Christian Dior perfume and an Apple iPod Touch.

Do you all shop at Old Navy and Walmart?

What would be European equivalents to those chains?

I can tell you that I do a lot of shopping at ALDI, LIDL and Penny. My wife does not believe in wasting money.

None of you have splurged on a $200 pair of jeans, a $500 shirt, or a $2,000 suit?

You have some serious luxury problems. Have you asked that question the millions of people in the United States that officially live in POVERTY?

Would you buy an ugly couch (or other piece of furniture) if it could save you some money? Would you buy an ugly house if everything else about it was okay? Would you buy an ugly car if it were cheaper?

Has it ever occurred to you that you have to be able to AFFORD all that these things?

Some people would and that's okay. Some people have no artistic sensibilities. But macs sell well because people embrace its style. The geeks who wear oversized T-shirts every day should be aware people find this important in a product they use daily.

Your friend Picasso once said this: "Those who can do, do. Those who can't do, talk about it."

People with "artistic sensibilities" will take the gray PC box, use it as a canvas and turn it into something that's a pleasure to look at. (Or the opposite, depending on the individual taste and message.)

Only decadent people who are incapable of creating something need to buy something ready-made.

Maybe you want to think about that for a moment.

 

[splitpea]

It's not just about what you care and think about, but it's the people around you. It's called psychology, you might want to look into it.

And I'm only willing to put a certain amount of weight on what people around me think. At least not enough to make the difference between buying:

- a brand-new BMW vs a well-kept used Accord
- this month's runway clothes vs a timeless blouse that looks at least as good and at least as professional and I'll be able to wear next year without embarrassment
- a pretty computer vs a functional computer

The opinions of people who judge me based on how much money I spend aren't worth seeking IMO. Especially once you get above a certain baseline of "doesn't look like a bum."

If you're that concerned with impressing other people with your possessions, you need to a) get some self-esteem, b) get some perspective, and c) stop watching so many TV ads.

Besides, aesthetics are subjective anyway. One person's awesome alienware computer with cool LEDs everywhere is another's fugly flashing overdesigned monstrosity.

i value them 50/50, maybe more towards looks.

Sucks for you. Seems to me to be a cruddy way to decide how to spend your money, unless you have a ton of it to spare.

i've never bought very expensive clothes either, but you can find good quality with good looks. i buy $60 Fallen shoes. they last years and i think they look absolutely amazing. i would spend money to be stylish, and it sure as hell doesn't get outdated in 3 months.

I spend for quality, not appearance. If I spend $60 on a pair of shoes (I rarely spend less) it's because I want something that's going to last me longer than the $15 crap from Payless, and they do. Typically they also look nice too. But I'm not going to spend $200 on shoes when the $60 shoes look fine and will last as long.

thats ridiculous. would you want people coming over to your house that is all brown shingles and COVERED in ivy thats large pretty on the inside, or an amazing looking house thats average on the inside? i pick the latter...

And I pick the former, because I'd rather be able to host them for hours in a pleasant interior than impress them for 60 seconds as they approach the exterior.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I live in NYC where the only part we can control is the interior.

i honestly people who would rather have a PC than a Mac are the kind of people who would be inclines to buy a ugly car or house.

Depends on their reasons. A lot of people choose a PC because they don't need anything more than the bare minimum specs, and Apple doesn't sell that so there's no point in spending $600 on a computer instead of $200. Or they have heard a bunch of FUD about Macs and don't see any point in switching. Or they've learned Windows by rote and when they tried OS X couldn't adjust and think it's confusing. Or they don't understand the concept of operating systems and don't realize there's anything different about Macs besides the appearance and the price (yes, there are a lot of people like that out there).

Just saying...

 

[doumbek]

Thank you, thank You, THANK YOU!

art is social commentary. true art has no monetary value; it's made to progress the human race, to point out problems and offer solutions. it isn't an "industry".

People with "artistic sensibilities" will take the gray PC box, use it as a canvas and turn it into something that's a pleasure to look at. (Or the opposite, depending on the individual taste and message.)

Only decadent people who are incapable of creating something need to buy something ready-made.

Maybe you want to think about that for a moment.

You guys just gave me hope for Humanity

 

[dukebound85]

The thread should be more like

"Why do some people not think aesthetics are the number one priority in a product?"

The original question is lacking substance

I for one, would like functionality as a higher priority over looks when weighting what is important

It's not about vanity or fitting in, just the opposite. It's about creativity, which is, IMO, the rarest quality a person can have.

Most PC companies just cobble together a bunch of components and stick them in a case. There's no creativity there at all and hardly a thought out design.

Fitting in would be buying something for its name. I've never bought a single piece of clothing with a logo on it.

You know what's even worse? When you decide to let your objects define who you are

It's a freaking computer that is a freaking tool....not some definition of who someone is

You are creative by the work you do utilizing tools as a means to an end in regards to a creation. You arent creative by just using a certain brand of tool

 

[drjsway]

"I for one, would like functionality as a higher priority over looks when weighting what is important

Every PC you buy is functional. It will turn on and do the tasks you need to do. Everyone is "waiting for Arrandale", "waiting for Sandy Bridge", yet a MacMini is plenty fast for what 98% of people use a computer for.

You know what's even worse? When you decide to let your objects define who you are

It's a freaking computer that is a freaking tool....not some definition of who someone is

When have I said objects define who I am? All I'm talking about is enjoying beauty. If I enjoy watching the sunset just because it's beautiful, am I a shallow person?

Some computers are tools. When you buy a cheap PC, you are buying just a tool. But Ive's designs strive for more than functionality. It is art and there is a message he's trying to express.

If I'm designing a soda can, part of it is trying to sell the product, but ambitious designers strive for more. What emotions am I trying to convey with my soda? What's the message I'm sending?

You are creative by the work you do utilizing tools as a means to an end in regards to a creation. You arent creative by just using a certain brand of tool

No, you aren't creative just by using a certain brand of tool. However, creative people are more likely to appreciate the creativity of others.

I buy Apple because I support their creativity not because I think it'll make ME creative.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

Depends on their reasons. A lot of people choose a PC because they don't need anything more than the bare minimum specs, and Apple doesn't sell that so there's no point in spending $600 on a computer instead of $200. Or they have heard a bunch of FUD about Macs and don't see any point in switching. Or they've learned Windows by rote and when they tried OS X couldn't adjust and think it's confusing. Or they don't understand the concept of operating systems and don't realize there's anything different about Macs besides the appearance and the price (yes, there are a lot of people like that out there).

Just saying...

Any some people (like me) use Windows because they willingly choose to, even though they have a mac too.

Just saying...

 

[drjsway]

However, lets look at the average person for a minute.

They need to be able to write documents and email documents. And maybe listen to music. An ugly looking Dell can do that for $500. A nice looking Macbook can do that for $1000.

So if the ability to use your tool is worth $500, is the cost of a nicer looking tool worth double the price?

It depends on how much you use this tool. I'm in my car maybe an hour a day (or even less). I use my computer all day long. Does it make sense to spend $20,000+ for your car then skimp on your computer?

No. The most important thing for creative people is whether this computer helps them to boost their creativity. Nobody buys a tool because it looks nice - a tool primarily has to be useful for a given purpose.

No computer will boost your creativity but wouldn't you want to support the creativity of other designers?

The five or six people on the world who have enough money to buy a Picasso do so because somebody -advised- them to INVEST their money in Picasso. They don't care about Picasso's aesthetics, they only care about the material value of his work.

True.

I can tell you that I do a lot of shopping at ALDI, LIDL and Penny. My wife does not believe in wasting money.

You have some serious luxury problems. Have you asked that question the millions of people in the United States that officially live in POVERTY?

Has it ever occurred to you that you have to be able to AFFORD all that these things?

Irrelevant. Everything you buy (besides food, clothes, and shelter) is a waste of money. Going to a movie is a waste of money. Waiting for an Arrandale MacBook Pro when all you do is twitter is a waste of money. But you should waste your money on what you enjoy and live within your means.

Your friend Picasso once said this: "Those who can do, do. Those who can't do, talk about it."

People with "artistic sensibilities" will take the gray PC box, use it as a canvas and turn it into something that's a pleasure to look at. (Or the opposite, depending on the individual taste and message.)

Every artist needs to eat. If you don't support the creativity of others with your dollars, creativity will die off. If an artist takes a gray PC box and turns it into something that's a pleasure to look at, I will buy it from him just so he is financially stable enough to create more art.

Only decadent people who are incapable of creating something need to buy something ready-made.

Maybe you want to think about that for a moment.

A utterly ridiculous statement. Artists should and do support other artists. Any artist who doesn't should be ashamed of themselves and doesn't deserve to be called an artist.

Maybe you want to think about that for a moment.

 

[Hellishness]

And I'm only willing to put a certain amount of weight on what people around me think. At least not enough to make the difference between buying:

- a brand-new BMW vs a well-kept used Accord
- this month's runway clothes vs a timeless blouse that looks at least as good and at least as professional and I'll be able to wear next year without embarrassment
- a pretty computer vs a functional computer

I only put a certain amount of weight on what people around me think. Sure it looks cool using a MBP in Starbucks next to someone with a Dell, but thats not why i would buy it. I would buy it because i like how it looks, not because someone will notice me.
I don't have a BMW so that people can stare at me at a red light....it certainly is a plus, though.

The opinions of people who judge me based on how much money I spend aren't worth seeking IMO. Especially once you get above a certain baseline of "doesn't look like a bum."

I agree.

If you're that concerned with impressing other people with your possessions, you need to a) get some self-esteem, b) get some perspective, and c) stop watching so many TV ads.

see above

Besides, aesthetics are subjective anyway. One person's awesome alienware computer with cool LEDs everywhere is another's fugly flashing overdesigned monstrosity.

true. if you don't like the looks of a MBP, then don't buy one.

Sucks for you. Seems to me to be a cruddy way to decide how to spend your money, unless you have a ton of it to spare.

no it doesn't suck for me, because what i value is different than what you value. since i like looks more than or as much as comfort, you saying that would be like me walking up to someone in an ugly but amazingly comfortable car and saying 'this sucks for you, thats a crappy way to spend your money."

I spend for quality, not appearance. If I spend $60 on a pair of shoes (I rarely spend less) it's because I want something that's going to last me longer than the $15 crap from Payless, and they do. Typically they also look nice too. But I'm not going to spend $200 on shoes when the $60 shoes look fine and will last as long.

well, i value both quality and appearance equally. and my shoes last forever and look great, so i'm happy.

And I pick the former, because I'd rather be able to host them for hours in a pleasant interior than impress them for 60 seconds as they approach the exterior.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. I live in NYC where the only part we can control is the interior.

and i don't live in NYC, so here in cupertino the outsides of our houses are fairly important. it would be a weird impression on someone bringing them to your hot pink house that is nice on the inside. and i would hate looking at the house every time i pulled up in the driveway.

Depends on their reasons. A lot of people choose a PC because they don't need anything more than the bare minimum specs, and Apple doesn't sell that so there's no point in spending $600 on a computer instead of $200. Or they have heard a bunch of FUD about Macs and don't see any point in switching. Or they've learned Windows by rote and when they tried OS X couldn't adjust and think it's confusing. Or they don't understand the concept of operating systems and don't realize there's anything different about Macs besides the appearance and the price (yes, there are a lot of people like that out there).

Just saying...

yes, many people do love windows, all i was saying is that PC users would in general be less inclined to value looks as much as Mac users.

 

[drjsway]

no it doesn't suck for me, because what i value is different than what you value. since i like looks more than or as much as comfort, you saying that would be like me walking up to someone in an ugly but amazingly comfortable car and saying 'this sucks for you, thats a crappy way to spend your money."

Bravo! I feel like most people in this thread take the world we live in for granted. If people didn't pay more for a car because of its style, guess what? Car companies would reduce (or eliminate) their design budget and all cars would look like ugly grey boxes on wheels.

If people stopped paying a premium for beautiful laptops, all laptops would be strictly utilitarian in style.

If people stopped buying $2,000 designer clothing, say hello to gray uniforms in the future. Fashion trends trickle down. Ideas first appeal on runways, then in high-end designer clothing, and within a couple years, trickles down to affordable stores (like Gap, Old Navy, etc.). So without Dolce & Gabbana, there is no Target.

The trickle down effect is apparent in cars, laptops, and most products as well. Hyundai Genesis is a copy of Infiniti G35. Many PC companies take design cues from Apple (HP Envy, anyone?).

You guys just gave me hope for Humanity

Man, do you have it completely backwards. Have fun living in a world where everything is ugly, there is no imagination nor creavity, and everything is built just to be functional.

 

[Gabriel GR]

Bravo! I feel like most people in this thread take the world we live in for granted. If people didn't pay more for a car because of its style, guess what? Car companies would reduce (or eliminate) their design budget and all cars would look like ugly grey boxes on wheels.

If people stopped paying a premium for beautiful laptops, all laptops would be strictly utilitarian in style.

If people stopped buying $2,000 designer clothing, say hello to gray uniforms in the future. Fashion trends trickle down. Ideas first appeal on runways, then in high-end designer clothing, and within a couple years, trickles down to affordable stores (like Gap, Old Navy, etc.). So without Dolce & Gabbana, there is no Target.

The trickle down effect is apparent in cars, laptops, and most products as well. Hyundai Genesis is a copy of Infiniti G35. Many PC companies take design cues from Apple (HP Envy, anyone?).



Man, do you have it completely backwards. Have fun living in a world where everything is ugly, there is no imagination nor creavity, and everything is built just to be functional.

You made a really interesting thread and it was "buried" because of the exaggerators and their zeal to prove they buy everything because of its functionality.

We make money to live, not to survive. Everyone has different wants to satisfy.

I wear casual jeans and sneakers daily. I have a 50 dollar phone, a crappy boxy car and on the other hand, several high end guitars and amplifiers.

I find a 500 dollar pair of jeans ridiculous but on the other hand I consider expensive NOS vacuum tubes almost a necessity...

Those who claim to hate "style" and those who bear stylish items should consider that some of us do it because we feel nice about ourselves, not to impress others.

My mac compiles java slower than most linux workstations with the same specs. Office is worse than in windows. SPSS and Matlab perform faster in a VM rather than on OS X. My screen reflects a lot and it's got sharp edges.

Still it's the most pleasant environment I have worked on. And a big part of this satisfaction comes from it's design and feel.

 

[serafnazimi]

This is very interesting thread with a lot of interesting opinions and I really enjoy reading it, also most threads in this place, how ever, my opinion is that you value or like something (no matter in which way or what) to a point when its just not worth it anymore.

Few hours ago, local reseller in my country (we don't have real Apple here) decided to jack up prices, so now, entry model plastic MacBook is 1010 euros or in about 1400 USD and entry MacBook Pro is 1310 euros or in about 1800 USD, so my dreams of owning my own Mac are over. Sure, I like playing with cousins now and then, but its not the same. I could afford it with some additional savings, but for THAT price I can not justify aesthetics or design of any kind with the tech inside. I'm really sorry about that, because I was looking forward in owning my own Mac computer.

I myself am a very visual person and I think that sometimes looks matter more. I don't think this is a good thing, but its something we can't run away from. We just have to find some good balance in our lives and go for what we think is important because in the end only that matters.

 

[Freyqq]

how it looks is certainly a factor, but it is far less important than other factors like the specs and quality of the trackpad/keyboard, battery life, weight, OS, etc. While the specs may be equal or lesser than other pc designs, the latter stuff is worth the premium on at least some of the models in my opinion

 

[Steve Jobs.]

I wear turtlenecks because they are damn sexy.

Otherwise we would have diamond encrusted hoes.

that is such a good idea!