I see no difference 7 years later on my 2015 MacBook Pro running OS X El Capitan.
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Why does macOS slow down with newer versions?
- Thread starter bearinthetown
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Practically speaking, I concur… but just for the sake of the argument, why would does this happen?
Heck, I've been using the same install since 2007 and it hasn't slowed down. I always run Time Machine migration whenever I get a new machine and haven't had a need to do a "fresh install" since I bought my first mac.
Space is used, more tasks may be routinely happening, software updates to apps and OS use more resources. If, however, nothing changes, then slowdown ought not to occur.
I did say, 'on the same hardware'. Your install hasn't slowed because your hardware power has increased. If you took your install and put it back on that original machine, probably a different story.
Because they were designed with the Windows PC market in mind, where there is far less issue with thermal problems, in desktops at least. Where Apple did similar with the Cheesegrater, cooling was well catered for. But good cooling often goes alongside some noise, and in general, Apple seems to favour silence over good thermal management.
by implication "on the same hardware" I always use the same install, and it hasn't slowed down.
This slow-down doesn't really happen on Linux unless you try, and it hardly happens on macOS unless you install loads of stuff that adds startup items, pretends to be a system optimization utility, or is otherwise crappy.
Back when I was in the workstation business at DEC we had a huge debate about changing our large (at the time) monitors from 60 Hz to something faster. The Human Factors team did studies on this very topic.
Now, this was ~40 years ago, but I doubt the human animal and its visual system has changed much. The results were that about 1/3 of the people saw 60 hz flicker and that dropped off fast. at 66hz less than 1% of those tested saw the flicker and when it was pushed up to 72Hz it was less than 0.1%.
However, at the time the cost of doing 72Hz on those "high resolution" (1600x1200) displays was pretty high so we settled on 66hz as a compromise between cost and the ability for people to see.
Somehow I doubt that any significant portion of the population can see refresh at 120hz. But it does make for a good marketing claim, after all we all know that bigger is better right?
I would expect "evidence" to include some measurements (and the resulting numbers) you took that are well enough explained that others could replicate your results.
The reason for perceived changes is that today we expect our computers to do more. The "slow down" is relative to expectations and it is the expectations that change over time.
Of course, I could be proved wrong, if you have some numbers to point to.
I don't need numbers to decide whether something is laggy or not. It's either instant enough or it's not. No new Apple computer ever lags while it's new.
You never used an entry-level 2014 Mini back then, no? Or some EDU M1 Air with 128GB only SSD. Not all Macs are as well performant as you are stating.
I find the absolute dismissal of this concern by so many to be pretty telling. If there is an issue, that would likely be why it has continued. The type of customers apple wants are the ones that would never even entertain such a thought. Jut the number of issues that arise from each update is worrying enough, I can understand with PC considering there is almost infinite configurations, but due to apple's serialization and proprietary disposition, the possible configurations are EXTREMELY limited, so why so many issues?
I digress, though. I have never had a brand new Apple product except for the iPad I got my daughter for her drawing. I have however worked on many and used them for work and had many given to me "broken" or because they are "too old"(aka 3 years old). I have noticed considerable issues with performance after "upgrading" MacOS. I first noticed it about 8 years ago or so with a 2013 13" Macbook Pro. It was only a year old when I got it from work. it worked just fine for a while. I never added any software to it and all of the stuff I used for work was cloud based via a browser. However after a couple years, it started becoming more and more useless as updates were applied and especially after going to a new OS version. Nothing changed with the programs or use cases, but things started taking 5x as long to open after clicking, etc. I upgraded the RAM to the max capacity at the time (only 8GB) at the fastest mhz it could handle. I also spent WAY too much for a Mac compatible SSD. Still, ZERO improvement! I actually stopped using it and went to using an old Acer I got in like 2010(w/ Windows 7 installed I believe) for $300 running the newest version of Windows 10 at the time, instead and it was lightning fast in comparison using the same programs. I finally broke that Macbook back out in like 2018 to see what I could use it for, but it would not work at all really. It would boot up and get to desktop eventually, but EVERYTHING I tried to do would time out...or rather just "spin". I even put the stock hardware back in and it was the same. I did a fresh install of the OS on both the SSD and the old stock HDD, installed nothing extra whatsoever, and it was still the same, completely unusable. SO, I installed the newest version of Ubuntu on it and the thing was lighting fast! Faster than it ever was even when it was only like 2 years old. I could even run multiple Windows VMs without any noticeable slowdown.
One thing may be that I was not using it as often and those changes are done so incrementally that some people don't notice it as much/at all? Maybe the hardware is just junky, we did have a 4' stack of dead Macbook Airs, and a nearly 5' stack of dead MacBook Pros in the IT department of that company(why they let me keep mine). I'm running into the same issues on much newer Macbooks and MacMinis I was gifted a while back too. I cant say for sure why this is happening, if it is intentional, or what exactly is the trigger, but there is something going on, so for all those that say there is 100% nothing going on, you may wanna check you bias's. Cognitive dissonance is a b!#ch, I have been there before. Its amazing what your brain can do to save you from accepting something you really don't want to. Large expensive purchases have a way of triggering that sort of subconscious justification, been there too.
At this point I have clearly given up on avoiding digression and have moved into to borderline ranting, but having worked on computer hardware for nearly 30 years, I find the existence of "booby traps" inside their devices, doing things like geocoding parts to the location of the technicians they sell them to, so they can only be activated there (if GPS is accurate at the time that is), and making a mobo/CPU/RAM/SSD+ all one "assembly", pretty large red flags that they would be willing to do other shady stuff like the aforementioned possibilities. Think about it, their desired customer base are fiercely loyal, adverse to repairing their own hardware, well off financially, and willing to buy a new device every 1-3 years. How much push back from people like that do you think; slowing performance a little bit each update over a couple years to make the new device seem like a better upgrade, would get them? Sure people like myself who are not their desired customer may point it out, but anyone fitting the description of their preferred customer would almost never listen or just consider it tribalism/hyperbole if they did. Jimmy Kimble recently did a funny bit where they had Apple users "try the new iPhone" with their own data on it via a "special program that lets them transfer all their data to the new phone instantly"(fyi, if anyone ever says they can do that, don't give them your phone...no matter who they say they are,ok?). However all they did was distract them with questions while some fake technician behind them, wiped down their old phone really well and put it in a new case. EVERY single one of them raved about how much better it was compared to the last one. Including a guy that worked for Apple! It's part of that old, "why would it cost so much if it wasn't good?!" fallacy. MANY people will just assume it is and pay it, because $$$=GOOD, whether it is a product or a person, right? Just like how "we" tell people that hard work, honesty, and talent = "success" their whole lives, while we hold up people who achieved that kind of "success" as role models, and apply those virtues to them for doing so, even though that in most cases they reached that level of "success" via the absolute antithesis of those very virtues "we" claim to hold so dear. Ya'll buy Yeti coolers and Tesla cyber"truck"s too?! I would say it's a safe bet that is the case. Then again who would the coffee shop staff laugh at without those kind of people? They need those good laughs to get theough the day, so I guess it is providing some worthwile value. :-D
I digress, though. I have never had a brand new Apple product except for the iPad I got my daughter for her drawing. I have however worked on many and used them for work and had many given to me "broken" or because they are "too old"(aka 3 years old). I have noticed considerable issues with performance after "upgrading" MacOS. I first noticed it about 8 years ago or so with a 2013 13" Macbook Pro. It was only a year old when I got it from work. it worked just fine for a while. I never added any software to it and all of the stuff I used for work was cloud based via a browser. However after a couple years, it started becoming more and more useless as updates were applied and especially after going to a new OS version. Nothing changed with the programs or use cases, but things started taking 5x as long to open after clicking, etc. I upgraded the RAM to the max capacity at the time (only 8GB) at the fastest mhz it could handle. I also spent WAY too much for a Mac compatible SSD. Still, ZERO improvement! I actually stopped using it and went to using an old Acer I got in like 2010(w/ Windows 7 installed I believe) for $300 running the newest version of Windows 10 at the time, instead and it was lightning fast in comparison using the same programs. I finally broke that Macbook back out in like 2018 to see what I could use it for, but it would not work at all really. It would boot up and get to desktop eventually, but EVERYTHING I tried to do would time out...or rather just "spin". I even put the stock hardware back in and it was the same. I did a fresh install of the OS on both the SSD and the old stock HDD, installed nothing extra whatsoever, and it was still the same, completely unusable. SO, I installed the newest version of Ubuntu on it and the thing was lighting fast! Faster than it ever was even when it was only like 2 years old. I could even run multiple Windows VMs without any noticeable slowdown.
One thing may be that I was not using it as often and those changes are done so incrementally that some people don't notice it as much/at all? Maybe the hardware is just junky, we did have a 4' stack of dead Macbook Airs, and a nearly 5' stack of dead MacBook Pros in the IT department of that company(why they let me keep mine). I'm running into the same issues on much newer Macbooks and MacMinis I was gifted a while back too. I cant say for sure why this is happening, if it is intentional, or what exactly is the trigger, but there is something going on, so for all those that say there is 100% nothing going on, you may wanna check you bias's. Cognitive dissonance is a b!#ch, I have been there before. Its amazing what your brain can do to save you from accepting something you really don't want to. Large expensive purchases have a way of triggering that sort of subconscious justification, been there too.
At this point I have clearly given up on avoiding digression and have moved into to borderline ranting, but having worked on computer hardware for nearly 30 years, I find the existence of "booby traps" inside their devices, doing things like geocoding parts to the location of the technicians they sell them to, so they can only be activated there (if GPS is accurate at the time that is), and making a mobo/CPU/RAM/SSD+ all one "assembly", pretty large red flags that they would be willing to do other shady stuff like the aforementioned possibilities. Think about it, their desired customer base are fiercely loyal, adverse to repairing their own hardware, well off financially, and willing to buy a new device every 1-3 years. How much push back from people like that do you think; slowing performance a little bit each update over a couple years to make the new device seem like a better upgrade, would get them? Sure people like myself who are not their desired customer may point it out, but anyone fitting the description of their preferred customer would almost never listen or just consider it tribalism/hyperbole if they did. Jimmy Kimble recently did a funny bit where they had Apple users "try the new iPhone" with their own data on it via a "special program that lets them transfer all their data to the new phone instantly"(fyi, if anyone ever says they can do that, don't give them your phone...no matter who they say they are,ok?). However all they did was distract them with questions while some fake technician behind them, wiped down their old phone really well and put it in a new case. EVERY single one of them raved about how much better it was compared to the last one. Including a guy that worked for Apple! It's part of that old, "why would it cost so much if it wasn't good?!" fallacy. MANY people will just assume it is and pay it, because $$$=GOOD, whether it is a product or a person, right? Just like how "we" tell people that hard work, honesty, and talent = "success" their whole lives, while we hold up people who achieved that kind of "success" as role models, and apply those virtues to them for doing so, even though that in most cases they reached that level of "success" via the absolute antithesis of those very virtues "we" claim to hold so dear. Ya'll buy Yeti coolers and Tesla cyber"truck"s too?! I would say it's a safe bet that is the case. Then again who would the coffee shop staff laugh at without those kind of people? They need those good laughs to get theough the day, so I guess it is providing some worthwile value. :-D
A 20 billion word rant with NO SUPPORTING DATA.... You are going to need extensive measurements if you want people to listen to you. Otherwise, we call it "hand waving".
Note that I am not disagreeing with you. You might be right but you are not proving it so the argument is less then weak.
Try doing common tasks while measuring with some kind of timer. For example, making edits and saving a Pages document or counting the number of words on a very large document or rendering a video in FCP.
Then of course there is the other way around. Do something with the new version of the OS and then see how long it would have taken using the old version. Like maybe removing a foreground object from a photo. Many times you might find the older version simply can not do the task at all. It this a "slow-down" or an infinite speed-up?
In any case with no data, no one listens or cares.
Welcome to the forums, @Case Runner. This appeared to be your first message, and it sounds like you have a lot of complaints you want to voice.
Would you like to discuss some these points individually? A lot could be said about each, but it depends on how interested you are in talking rather than just airing grievances.
There are certainly many Apple apologists here, but there are also a lot of knowledgeable folks. If you want to talk about the tech details and try to find solutions or clarify the issues by providing some specific cases and maybe offer some data points we can look at, that could give us more to constructively talk about, like @ChrisA mentioned.
Would you like to discuss some these points individually? A lot could be said about each, but it depends on how interested you are in talking rather than just airing grievances.
There are certainly many Apple apologists here, but there are also a lot of knowledgeable folks. If you want to talk about the tech details and try to find solutions or clarify the issues by providing some specific cases and maybe offer some data points we can look at, that could give us more to constructively talk about, like @ChrisA mentioned.
You've never experienced slower performance, more spinning beach balls and the like after any OS update? Do you mean major updates, or just point releases? How many years have you been using Apple devices?
You've kind of proven the point that @ChrisA made. You believe that your Mac must perform "instant enough" according to your subjective measurements.
I’ve been using Apple since 2001. And, no, in all that time I have never noticed any slowing down after any OS upgrades in any of my Macs or Apple devices.
My longest serving device, my 2011 21.5 iMac I used for thirteen years, experienced some slow down due to an aging HDD, but I replaced it with a Samsung Evo SSD and solved that issue. That with a couple of other tweaks and that machine ran sweet and better than new for another five years…until my sister inadvertently allowed Got Junk to take it away to the trash last week… A painful story I don’t like to think about—almost akin to a beloved pet put down for no reason. Somehow I managed to keep my head and not lose it totally—understanding she didn’t do it deliberately and it happened while she was dealing with a lot happening at once. But it stings nonetheless.
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After dealing with temperature increase, high cpu usage and sluggishness on my 2015 MBA (intel i5 5250u, 8gb ram) since upgrading to Monterey, and googling for days trying to figure out what's going on, I've come to the conclusion that Apple really does slow down devices with every update and found this topic by searching to see if other users have figured out the same thing.
How processes are eating cpu now just doesn't make any sense, for example it's ridiculous how "WindowServer" eats up cpu, by just moving the cursor or just moving a window slightly it suddenly jumps to 15-20% cpu usage. It's a really simple process it handles the position and size of elements on screen, it doesn't do rendering or graphical processing, Windows(the operating system) has a similar process called "Desktop window Manager", I checked it on my old PC that's got a quad core i7 from 2008 and it never exceeds 0.5% cpu usage, even when I open tons of windows and get really hyper active on desktop.
Or every time I reboot, after login, "mds_stores" which is a process that's part of spotlight indexing, starts eating about 90% of cpu for two minutes and then calms down, which produces a lot heat, even if I reboot 5 minutes after logging in without touching anything, it does the same thing again, I just don't understand what is there to index when I haven't touched anything and you just finished indexing 5 minutes ago! and it's a common issue, I've seen people reporting that even a clean install didn't solve it.
I have no non-apple launchdaemon or launchagent or extension, and it gets hot and uses like 20-30 percent of cpu by just browsing on safari. Before update it was smooth and rarely hot. It's a device I have rarely used it's got only 350 battery cycles after 10 years.
I want to downgrade to mojave or lower so badly, but I've got a few apps that don't work on those.
Microsoft seems to be doing the same thing, not as bad as apple does it. Windows 7 is so much faster and smoother than 10, my father has an ancient pc from 2006 with dual core intel cpu and 2 gigs of ram on win7, it so smooth and fast it's unbelivable.
It feels like computers and phones have matured enough for most types of users, which is bad news for tech companies like apple or microsoft, so they have to somehow force users to buy new stuff, now they force you to buy "subscription plans" and "cloud" stuff, instead of just giving it to you at once with a one time payment like they did before, or they try to make totally fine technologies obsolete like 3.5mm jack or USB-A ports, or they offer new features that are useless, like who asked for 3 cameras on a phone, or face id or memojis?! I have se2020 that I never updated, it's got everything I need, and feels pretty close to how iphone 6s used to feel, or who really needed a Macbook air that's even thinner! it was thin enough already, now you removed active cooling and made a macbook that's always hot just to make it thinner! , or who needs iphone air! what's the last time you heard someone say "OMG! my iphone is so heavy and thick, i wish there was a lighter thinner version!"
I don't think I will ever buy an apple device ever again, because they have so much crap that I don't need, and with those prices they make me feel like a fool,I also don't like giving money to immoral people.
How processes are eating cpu now just doesn't make any sense, for example it's ridiculous how "WindowServer" eats up cpu, by just moving the cursor or just moving a window slightly it suddenly jumps to 15-20% cpu usage. It's a really simple process it handles the position and size of elements on screen, it doesn't do rendering or graphical processing, Windows(the operating system) has a similar process called "Desktop window Manager", I checked it on my old PC that's got a quad core i7 from 2008 and it never exceeds 0.5% cpu usage, even when I open tons of windows and get really hyper active on desktop.
Or every time I reboot, after login, "mds_stores" which is a process that's part of spotlight indexing, starts eating about 90% of cpu for two minutes and then calms down, which produces a lot heat, even if I reboot 5 minutes after logging in without touching anything, it does the same thing again, I just don't understand what is there to index when I haven't touched anything and you just finished indexing 5 minutes ago! and it's a common issue, I've seen people reporting that even a clean install didn't solve it.
I have no non-apple launchdaemon or launchagent or extension, and it gets hot and uses like 20-30 percent of cpu by just browsing on safari. Before update it was smooth and rarely hot. It's a device I have rarely used it's got only 350 battery cycles after 10 years.
I want to downgrade to mojave or lower so badly, but I've got a few apps that don't work on those.
Microsoft seems to be doing the same thing, not as bad as apple does it. Windows 7 is so much faster and smoother than 10, my father has an ancient pc from 2006 with dual core intel cpu and 2 gigs of ram on win7, it so smooth and fast it's unbelivable.
It feels like computers and phones have matured enough for most types of users, which is bad news for tech companies like apple or microsoft, so they have to somehow force users to buy new stuff, now they force you to buy "subscription plans" and "cloud" stuff, instead of just giving it to you at once with a one time payment like they did before, or they try to make totally fine technologies obsolete like 3.5mm jack or USB-A ports, or they offer new features that are useless, like who asked for 3 cameras on a phone, or face id or memojis?! I have se2020 that I never updated, it's got everything I need, and feels pretty close to how iphone 6s used to feel, or who really needed a Macbook air that's even thinner! it was thin enough already, now you removed active cooling and made a macbook that's always hot just to make it thinner! , or who needs iphone air! what's the last time you heard someone say "OMG! my iphone is so heavy and thick, i wish there was a lighter thinner version!"
I don't think I will ever buy an apple device ever again, because they have so much crap that I don't need, and with those prices they make me feel like a fool,I also don't like giving money to immoral people.
I like this kind of logic. Basics, you say, "My 10-year-old Mac is slow, therefore Apple is Evil."
*Slow after an update that offers no significant feature or improvement. Slow and hot even when browsing on safari.
Basics, you say, "I'm an obnoxious person, I read your post, but chose to ignore 99% of it because I don't really want to be useful I just want attention"
It's funny, after upgrading my 2018 Mini to Monterey everything was initially fine but after a few months it started slowing down, apparently throttling from overheating. I also noticed culprits taking up a lot of CPU, as you mentioned. After awhile, this seemed to get ridiculous and it was getting harder and harder to do anything. Then I realized that I'd never even looked to see how much junk was getting sucked into the vents.
Turned out everything was seriously clogged up, I live in a rural area with plenty of dust and pollen. Then there are two cats... After a careful cleaning, it was literally like a brand new computer! I was surprised how dramatic the difference was, and how I never even thought to check that before.
Not saying that could have anything to do with anyone else's issues but it's worth a look if you have an older machine. Of course, my 2018 Mini has 64gb RAM and hex-core i7 and it's probably a lot better candidate for Monterey than an 8gb 2015 MacBook Air. I have a 2013 MBA with 8gb RAM that I no longer use, can't remember but think I stopped upgrading at Catalina and it seemed to work fine with that.
Turned out everything was seriously clogged up, I live in a rural area with plenty of dust and pollen. Then there are two cats... After a careful cleaning, it was literally like a brand new computer! I was surprised how dramatic the difference was, and how I never even thought to check that before.
Not saying that could have anything to do with anyone else's issues but it's worth a look if you have an older machine. Of course, my 2018 Mini has 64gb RAM and hex-core i7 and it's probably a lot better candidate for Monterey than an 8gb 2015 MacBook Air. I have a 2013 MBA with 8gb RAM that I no longer use, can't remember but think I stopped upgrading at Catalina and it seemed to work fine with that.