Why I won't be buying Tiger..

sigamy

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 7, 2003
1,300
2
NJ USA
Because I'll just buy a Mac mini!!!

By the time Tiger is released I'll also need an upgrade to Quicken. That is probably real close to $200 in software. I'll just buy the mini and get a G4 mac for around $300.

Just makes me wish I didn't run to get iLife this weekend.
 

Benj

macrumors regular
Oct 9, 2004
178
0
London
But obviously you won't be breaching the license agreement and installing it on other machines. ;)
 

lasuther

macrumors 6502a
Feb 13, 2004
670
0
Grand Haven, Michigan
Benj said:
But obviously you won't be breaching the license agreement and installing it on other machines. ;)
I will also be getting a new mac just for software upgrades of Tiger, iLife, Quicken, and any other new software with it.

Is it possible to install Tiger on old Macs from the disks from a new Mac? I though it was serialized. Would it erase all your old data on the computer?

lasuther
 

jsw

Moderator emeritus
Mar 16, 2004
22,817
37
Andover, MA
Never install an OS included with one Mac on another non-identical-model Mac. Not only is it a license violation, but also there are reportedly subtle differences between the versions. Retail Jaguar/Panther/Tiger/etc. versions have all the code; the versions released with the computers contain only the code they need.
 

maya

macrumors 68040
Oct 7, 2004
3,225
0
somewhere between here and there.
jsw said:
Never install an OS included with one Mac on another non-identical-model Mac. Not only is it a license violation, but also there are reportedly subtle differences between the versions. Retail Jaguar/Panther/Tiger/etc. versions have all the code; the versions released with the computers contain only the code they need.
That is one way of cutting the pirating issue. :)
 

Chip NoVaMac

macrumors G3
Dec 25, 2003
8,889
25
Northern Virginia
jsw said:
but also there are reportedly subtle differences between the versions. Retail Jaguar/Panther/Tiger/etc. versions have all the code; the versions released with the computers contain only the code they need.
Never heard that one before.

I did have to send in my PB for a SDD replacement recently. I did a CCC backup of the drive and shuffled that copy off to my eMac (latest version) and a friends G5 PM, booting from my drive. No problems.
 

sigamy

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 7, 2003
1,300
2
NJ USA
jsw said:
Never install an OS included with one Mac on another non-identical-model Mac. Not only is it a license violation, but also there are reportedly subtle differences between the versions. Retail Jaguar/Panther/Tiger/etc. versions have all the code; the versions released with the computers contain only the code they need.
So now that Apple's product matrix has grown they now have different "builds" of the OS for each computer? That is at least 6 different distros...
eMac
Mac mini
iBook
PowerBook
iMac
PowerMac
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors G5
May 7, 2004
13,520
2,557
Sod off
jsw said:
Never install an OS included with one Mac on another non-identical-model Mac. Not only is it a license violation, but also there are reportedly subtle differences between the versions. Retail Jaguar/Panther/Tiger/etc. versions have all the code; the versions released with the computers contain only the code they need.
The only time I have tried this was with the original OS 7.1 install CD from my Quadra. I used it to install OS 7.1 on a large variety of old 68k Macs without problems. Of course, 7.1 is public domain. :D

I have a retail copy of OS 9 and Panther, and I'll probably buy Tiger as soon as it's available.
 

matthew24

macrumors 6502
May 30, 2002
388
0
Netherlands
I did install OSX panther which came with my 15 Inch PB ( 1.25GHz ) on my G4 PM; No problems what so ever. If you own 2 macs for personal use ( I am single ) should you buy a family pack? ( I tried to buy a family pack with the new PB; it was not possible! :( I didn't want to buy it twice. :eek:
 

vtprinz

macrumors 6502
Nov 30, 2004
395
0
matthew24 said:
I did install OSX panther which came with my 15 Inch PB ( 1.25GHz ) on my G4 PM; No problems what so ever. If you own 2 macs for personal use ( I am single ) should you buy a family pack? ( I tried to buy a family pack with the new PB; it was not possible! :( I didn't want to buy it twice. :eek:
I agree here. I have an iBook and will be buying a PowerMac soon. the cost of software is already included in my purchase, so I don't see what problem it would be in loading iLife '05 and Tiger onto my iBook as well. They're both my computers for my own use and no one else's. I've paid for the software. Where's the problem?
 

Macky-Mac

macrumors 68030
May 18, 2004
2,589
1,142
jsw said:
....... but also there are reportedly subtle differences between the versions. Retail Jaguar/Panther/Tiger/etc. versions have all the code; the versions released with the computers contain only the code they need.
I used to think so too.......however, recently I bought a copy of 10.3 from Other World Computing. It was advertised as "full install but no retail box." What arrived were 3 CDs in a plastic wrap with a printed Apple "single user license."

The CDs all had "eMac" printed on them and contained OS 10.3 without any of the subsequent updates to 10.3.x......I assume they are left over product that Apple no longer ships with a new eMac because they are so out of date with the current OS 10.3.x release.

They installed just fine on my old G3 500 iBook. There was nothing in the software license that limited their use to an eMac.

Other World Computing has a good reputation on this board so I don't think they would be selling these as "full install" if they were actually going to install a version that was limited to just the eMac.

would they??
 

Blackheart

macrumors 6502a
Mar 13, 2004
938
0
Seattle
I find it funny that when anyone brings up pirating software, the thread goes to wasteland and everyone flames the originator of the thread. However, in threads like this, people are openly saying that they are pirating the software and receive little or no flak for it. When you buy a computer with updated software and install that software on your other computers, there is no legal difference between that and just downloading it off of some bit torrent site.

I admit, I use to download software heavily. However, I feel that I'm obligated to both Apple and myself, to purchase the products that they make. If they don't receive my money from the development, we can be sure that the next revision will be that much less "feature-full". They make great products and I'll be visiting my local apple store this weekend to buy iLife and maybe iWork (with all the bugs I've heard so far, I don't know if it's worth it right now).

Sorry for the rant, just had to get it out.
 

vtprinz

macrumors 6502
Nov 30, 2004
395
0
ChrisBrightwell said:
Licensing violations?
The software comes with a "Single User License," not "Single Unit License." I'm a single user, despite "using" more than one computer.

Not to mention, apple advertises their "OS X Setup Assistant" by saying that you can transfer "user accounts, system preferences, documents and applications" from your current Mac to your new one. Is there really any difference with doing things the other way around?
 

Kmacripple

macrumors member
Jan 20, 2005
47
0
Topeka, IN (aka Amish country)
I bought an iBook in December, and I tried to install iLife '04 (for Garageband) on my Sawtooth G4. It wouldn't let me install it, because it said it was the wrong model of computer. It had to be an iBook to install it. I could install Panther, though.
 

logicat2001

macrumors regular
Apr 16, 2003
191
0
Minneapolis, MN
Retail Jaguar/Panther/Tiger/etc. versions have all the code; the versions released with the computers contain only the code they need.
This has been confirmed by a long-time developer associated with Apple. Whether or not it's true in every case, specifically what gotchas exist, and why this is the case is for someone else to figure out.

AFAIK, it is not an attempt at license protection, although there are times when you will be left unable to install the software.

Best,
Logicat
 

logicat2001

macrumors regular
Apr 16, 2003
191
0
Minneapolis, MN
vtprinz said:
The software comes with a "Single User License," not "Single Unit License." I'm a single user, despite "using" more than one computer.
vtprinz, Have you read the license agreement you've agreed to or have you simply read the title?

Here's the EULA for iLife '04 (also a Single Use License), and specifically what limits you've agree to re: the number of installs (bold copy is my own):
2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions. This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single computer at a time. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time, and you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple computers at the same time.
Regardless of what you think the title implies, you explicitly agree to install a single copy on a single machine. That's it.

Best,
Logicat
 

wrldwzrd89

macrumors G5
Jun 6, 2003
12,106
73
Solon, OH
Kmacripple said:
I bought an iBook in December, and I tried to install iLife '04 (for Garageband) on my Sawtooth G4. It wouldn't let me install it, because it said it was the wrong model of computer. It had to be an iBook to install it. I could install Panther, though.
Unlike the operating system, the software restore is locked to the specific computer (model?) it came with. I've installed Mac OS 9.2.2 from a PowerBook on a PowerMac with no problems, thus verifying that the OS is cross-computer compatible (assuming, of course, that it's at least as new as the computer is; otherwise it will NOT work no matter what you try).

I think that what sigamy's doing is a great idea if you're in the market for a Mac mini. Since I'm not in the Mac mini market, I'll be buying Tiger as I would buy any other Mac OS version from Apple.
 

morkintosh

macrumors regular
Nov 25, 2003
193
0
sigamy said:
So now that Apple's product matrix has grown they now have different "builds" of the OS for each computer? That is at least 6 different distros...
eMac
Mac mini
iBook
PowerBook
iMac
PowerMac
I'm not sure that is the case for the OS. I think what he was getting at is that the bundled software is specific (i.e. if I try and do a clean rebuild of my G5 using my PB restore CD it won't work). Am I misunderstanding what the original post implied?
 

vtprinz

macrumors 6502
Nov 30, 2004
395
0
logicat2001 said:
vtprinz, Have you read the license agreement you've agreed to or have you simply read the title?

Here's the EULA for iLife '04 (also a Single Use License), and specifically what limits you've agree to re: the number of installs (bold copy is my own):
Regardless of what you think the title implies, you explicitly agree to install a single copy on a single machine. That's it.

Best,
Logicat
Yeah I kind of expected that :eek:

I typed before I thought. Or, actually, I was just too lazy to actually look up the LA. I assumed, and you know what happens when you assume :eek:

Still, something seems wrong about that. And with the way they advertise the Setup Assistant, they seem to give every indication that you can transfer your apps to other comptuers.

Of course, I'm sure there's some fine print that says something along the lines of "only if you have a multi-user license." :rolleyes:
 

Chip NoVaMac

macrumors G3
Dec 25, 2003
8,889
25
Northern Virginia
Blackheart said:
I find it funny that when anyone brings up pirating software, the thread goes to wasteland and everyone flames the originator of the thread. However, in threads like this, people are openly saying that they are pirating the software and receive little or no flak for it. When you buy a computer with updated software and install that software on your other computers, there is no legal difference between that and just downloading it off of some bit torrent site.

Sorry for the rant, just had to get it out.
I understand where you are coming from. I think the issue is that the Mac mini opens up a whole new world to those wanting to upgrade their system OS. For the price of Tiger and iLife 5, you add $300 and get a computer backup to boot.

Look at the number of people here that have plenty of computers in their home or office, but still want the Mac mini. And you can see the wheels turning in peoples minds. I was probably the first to post the idea here on MR in another thread. I was set straight as to what I can and can not do with this idea.

If choose to follow the EULA on the Mac mini, that is my business, just as if I don't follow it as well. I see this discussion of the Mac mini/Tiger/iLife 5 as a means of upgrading other computers in a different light. It is not like me coming on here and saying, go here to get a free copy of MS Office. A fine line, but a line that see non the less.

As pointed out by logicat, what is the difference with Apple offering the Setup Assistant? Surely Apple can not be that naive to realize that this opens up piracy issues. Nor I can't believe that I or anyone else here on MR was the first to think of the Mac mini as a cheap way to get the latest software. At least I hope that someone at Apple thought of it too. Look Apple even added serial numbers to iWork.

In the end Apple may look at as a win-win. They get more computers sold. There will be those that disagree with the idea and will pay for Tiger/iLife. And in the end the stockholders will be all the happier. And if this idea has too big of a dent in the bottom line, you can bet that 10.5 will have something to prevent disk images from being used in this way.
 

logicat2001

macrumors regular
Apr 16, 2003
191
0
Minneapolis, MN
Still, something seems wrong about that. And with the way they advertise the Setup Assistant, they seem to give every indication that you can transfer your apps to other comptuers.
You can. Then you delete the copy on the computer you're no longer using.
 

ChrisBrightwell

macrumors 68020
Apr 5, 2004
2,294
0
Huntsville, AL
vtprinz said:
The software comes with a "Single User License," not "Single Unit License." I'm a single user, despite "using" more than one computer.

Not to mention, apple advertises their "OS X Setup Assistant" by saying that you can transfer "user accounts, system preferences, documents and applications" from your current Mac to your new one. Is there really any difference with doing things the other way around?
Two things:

1. I'm not armed to debate the licensing specifics, since I don't have a copy handy to read.

2. Migrating to a new machine (and thus implying that you won't be using the old one) and copying software to another machine for simultaneous use are clearly different.

If iLife (and other software included in this discussion) is, indeed, licensed per user, then I apologize. I've been entrenched in Windows far too long, where one CD key matches to one computer, no matter what (almost).

-----

EDIT: I guess I should've read the rest of the thread before replying. My ignorance was answered before I even hit reply. Thanks, logicat. :)

Personally, I'll be picking up the family pack of iLife '05 soon and Tiger upon its release. My fiance`, sister, and uncle are all recent Mac converts, and they're all drooling over new features in the software. I hear my future cousin-in-law picked up an iBook today (her first Mac), so she may want part of the Tiger upgrade, too.

I adore Apple's willingness to make legal software both easy and affordable. A single XP Pro license (non-Edu, non-upgrade) costs as much as five licenses of Panther *and* iLife '05. Wow. Simply amazing.
 

vtprinz

macrumors 6502
Nov 30, 2004
395
0
Clearly and legally, I'm wrong.

But ethically? I wonder if it's Apple (or any software company) that's wrong. Something just doesn't seem right to make me pay full price twice just because I happen to have two computers. I would completely understand if either computer was being shared with others (say one was mine and the other was the family's), but that's not the case. I don't see how Apple is losing any money when I load something onto both computers. Other than the money they would make from making me pay twice. They're not losing any customers though. Anyone else that wants the program would have to pay for it, just as I have. No one is getting any software for free.

But then, these are just random musings, so don't flame me. I'm not attacking Apple, just pondering and maybe posing a question. I already know that, legally, I'm wrong. But who do you think is wrong, ethically speaking?