Why I won't be buying Tiger..

[iJon]

Never install an OS included with one Mac on another non-identical-model Mac. Not only is it a license violation, but also there are reportedly subtle differences between the versions. Retail Jaguar/Panther/Tiger/etc. versions have all the code; the versions released with the computers contain only the code they need.

Hmm, I don't believe that one bit. I've mixed and matched all the time and everything works fine. Only difference is the software that comes on each one. Like Apple's consumer machines will have Quicken and WorldBook and so on while their power machines will have QuickBooks and all the other pro software.

jon

 

[Benj]

leaving the whole "copyright" away it is all a thing of definitions in the law...

so far not a _single_ company even _tried_ to sue sombody over that (or any other EULA violation) here in austria or germany ... copyright (which in that specific is defined completly different here as well) is another matter

installing software you _bought_ on a second computer is far from 'pirating'... because you don't step into copyright laws ... which are getting very strict in the last years

doesn't pirating still involve 'selling' the 'copied' software ... in this case, it is neither copied or sold by a customer... so in this case 'pirated' would be wrong ..."morally questionable" would be more correct

It is pirating because you are not buying another license - you have one illegal copy.

offtopic:
(here the iLife 05 EULA isn't available in the net and apple doesn't link to them within the specific linking depth range anyways ... so any the printed EULAs inside of the box would be nothing more than toilet paper here)

'license agreements' are a extremly thin ice here..for example you can't take any 'protection law' away from the customer... one error like this and the whole EULA is completly void

I have not looked at the EULA but I will bet they have a severance clause so that if anyone clause is struck out the others remain in force.

same for the lack of mentioning of the eulas on the outside of software/hardware including software - packages
so there you could still walk into a store,buy a mini and as soon as the store clerk gets the money and you the product the deal is _closed_ ... the EULAs in the package are worth zip,zero,nada after that point if you didn'T had the chance to read the EULA before that...

Wrong. Whilst you are correct that you cannot add terms to a contract, certainly under proper common law (English, NY) 😉 Apple would need to give you a full refund if you returned the product and said you were unwilling to agree to the license.

and it get's even worse: if all above wouldn't exist and the eula would be valid if _you_ click ok udner the button let your child or any other person at minor age at minor age click on the button...that way you and your son wouldn't have to care about 😉
of course this is only in germany and partially in austria

Errm - no. Minors can't contract in this way. And anyway, I can't send a five year old to shoot someone and say it's all their responsibility.

I'll take a punt (having not looked at the EULA) but I suspect Apple will have gone for NY or California law rather than scary unpredictable codified European law... 😀

 

[takao]

It is pirating because you are not buying another license - you have one illegal copy.

as said before in many countries thing like "software licenses" don't exist in front of court...you buy _software_ not licenses ... sure many EULA say something else but that doesn't make it so

I have not looked at the EULA but I will bet they have a severance clause so that if anyone clause is struck out the others remain in force.

yess they do..but same as before..simply because they say it doesn't make it so...

Wrong. Whilst you are correct that you cannot add terms to a contract, certainly under proper common law (English, NY) 😉 Apple would need to give you a full refund if you returned the product and said you were unwilling to agree to the license.

when you buy software in a store not the developer of the software has to give you refund..the trader has (in the case of apple it might be the same 😉 )..if he _wants_ to...
the contract when you buy in a store is between the store and youself not the company who made the product

Errm - no. Minors can't contract in this way. And anyway, I can't send a five year old to shoot someone and say it's all their responsibility.

it's talking about a contract and not a murder 😉... and afterall as said before the contract is made earlier... so it doesn't matter anyways

I'll take a punt (having not looked at the EULA) but I suspect Apple will have gone for NY or California law rather than scary unpredictable codified European law... 😀

they can't choose which law they want 😉 after all i'm dealing with Apple Austria/Germany and not apple US ...and they say it on their homepage that austrian laws applies

and even when they would say californian law applies..it doesn't make it so 😉

(i had a whole course about that for half a year about the whole topic... and be to serious: the US law system hasn't the best reputation after all)

 

[pianojoe]

That is one way of cutting the pirating issue. 🙂

Yes, but it's not true. I've done this now and then--mind you, not violating the license agreement, I accidently used the wrong DVDs to do a reinstall. (I really need to keep my stuff in order.) And it worked like a charme EVERY TIME.

Sometimes, though, new models come with a hacked version of the current Os, like, the first G5s shipped with a hacked 10.2.8 because Panther wasn't out then. I wouldn't install THAT on an older machine. You're inviting trouble this way.

 

[pianojoe]

The software comes with a "Single User License," not "Single Unit License." I'm a single user, despite "using" more than one computer.

Back here in old Europe it goes like this: Using software is like reading a book. You may xerox the book, you may install the software on two machines, but, like, the same copy of a book can not be read by two persons in different places at the same time, different installs of the same software "item" may not be used simultaneously.

If you have two Macs, most probably you'll want to do some filesharing or have them on the same network to exchange data. So, effectively, you're using two instances of the software at the same time, having paid only for one. Handcuffs, anyone?

 

[pianojoe]

Can you return software by not agreeing to the EULA?

Some time ago I read the blog of a Linux guy who bought a Toshiba notebook, installed Linux by booting from a bootstrap floppy disc, and returning the Windows XP home CDs to the store, stating he "didn't agree to the EULA" and wanted a refund.

In the end he succeded, but it took him months, and they made him jump though hoops.

(Sorry, can't find the link right now.)

 

[vtprinz]

In regards to the talk about different versions of the OS on each computer model, I happened to find this in the powermac discussion board on apples website: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86426

Specifically: "The version of Mac OS X 10.2.7 (G5) that ships with Power Mac G5 computers is made specifically for those computers and will not install on any other computers.
This means that Mac OS X 10.2.7 (G5) also should not be used in image mastering or for NetBooting other computers."

This is obviously outdated (note the 10.2.7), and maybe that changed with Panther, as a lot of people have said that they've already done this. But it does show that the version that comes preinstalled isnt a full retail version of the OS

 

[Lacero]

Well, I'll be definitely buying Tiger. Dashboard looks to save a lot of time, instead of looking for apps like Calculator and Stickies. Tiger's new CoreImage and CoreVideo are vital in my line of work, plus H.264 alone and QT7 are enough for me to upgrade. I really do hate posts where people give reasons for not updating. Fine for you, if you are broke and can't afford such updates, otherwise, people who use Macs for more than pleasure welcome the updates.

 

[vtprinz]

I really do hate posts where people give reasons for not updating. Fine for you, if you are broke and can't afford such updates, otherwise, people who use Macs for more than pleasure welcome the updates.

Have you read the post? It had nothing to do with people not wanting to update. The point of that title was that, instead of buying tiger/ilife 05, you can spend $300 more and get all of the software WITH a mac mini.

The remainder of the thread has been on whether or not it was right to copy the software from the mini to your current computer

 

[jaw04005]

Over last Christmas break, I used my brother's iBook install CD to install Panther on my Powerbook just because at the time it was convenient and my Powerbook's restore DVD was at college. It works, but you have to watch out because Apple has to make Mac OS X function with that particular model.

Example: You bought a Powerbook, and it came with 10.3.5. Something happens, you can't find your restore DVD and you use someone else's install CD except their iBook shipped with 10.3.2. Your out of luck, because your model would not be supported yet.

I ran "that" version of Panther on my Powerbook for months without issue. Was I violating the license agreement? Probally. But, it was better than being stuck two weeks at home with a corrupted system folder. I would consider that "okay", and I doubt Apple is going to be coming after me anytime soon.

Most Mac users are going to purchase at least one copy of the new O/S anyway. We are loyal that way, and they realize that. That is why there is no activation scheme or serial numbers associated with Panther. Who knows if that will change with Tiger.

 

[neon]

Hypothetically, if you own for example a G4 and an ibook, and you install iLife on each machine from the same disc, if you're using one machine and the other is shut down, it does in a roundabout way cease to exist, albeit ~temporarily~.

To truly abide by the rules, you could uninstall from your ibook, install on your G4, use on your G4, uninstall from your G4, turn off your G4, turn on your ibook, install on your ibook, use on your ibook........ but it you wanted to waste that much time wouldn't you just buy a pc?

 

[Timelessblur]

basicly in the end this people are trying to find a why to justify stealing pirating it.

I going to laugh so hard when Apple starts using activation for there OS and it just people like them that is to blame for it.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Over last Christmas break, I used my brother's iBook install CD to install Panther on my Powerbook just because at the time it was convenient and my Powerbook's restore DVD was at college. It works, but you have to watch out because Apple has to make Mac OS X function with that particular model.

Example: You bought a Powerbook, and it came with 10.3.5. Something happens, you can't find your restore DVD and you use someone else's install CD except their iBook shipped with 10.3.2. Your out of luck, because your model would not be supported yet.

I ran "that" version of Panther on my Powerbook for months without issue. Was I violating the license agreement? Probally. But, it was better than being stuck two weeks at home with a corrupted system folder. I would consider that "okay", and I doubt Apple is going to be coming after me anytime soon.

Most Mac users are going to purchase at least one copy of the new O/S anyway. We are loyal that way, and they realize that. That is why there is no activation scheme or serial numbers associated with Panther. Who knows if that will change with Tiger.

Know I know where people are getting the impression from now. It has to do with the listing of computers with numbers like 10,2 representing a particular model. Thanks.

 

[aloofman]

I'd prefer that the US abandon its draconian copyright law policies and become more like the EU. Software patents, as defined in the US, are a stupid and counter-productive idea.

Anyway...
Copyright laws, and EULAs in particular, are complex no matter where you go (even the countries with poorly defined copyright regulations follow this rule). Copyright, by its very nature, is a complex subject. If I were a lawyer, I'd hate to worm my way through a copyright law case. Even Apple (which has the authority to create copyrighted material and EULAs) isn't immune.

Since far more software is created in the United States than in the EU, it's not surprising that U.S. law has stronger enforcement of software patents. Besides, it's software that's a relatively new phenomenon here, not patent law. Patent and copyright protection has been given strong emphasis in the U.S. from the very beginning, so much so that it's in the Constitution, Article I, Section 8, which which gives Congress the power

"...To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries"

I don't see a problem with having two different regulatory systems in the U.S. and the E.U. That strong software protection is one of the reasons there are so many software companies here.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

To bring this sort back to topic. This link: http://www.anandtech.com/weblog/default.aspx#168 puts some cold water on the Mac mini and Tiger in particular with the talk about Core Image.

Lets hope that Apple will do an update of the Mac mini with a better GPU when Tiger is released. Though I doubt that will happen since that would mean an update in only 4 to 5 months time. Never heard of Apple doing such a quick update to a particular system before.

 

[wrldwzrd89]

To bring this sort back to topic. This link: http://www.anandtech.com/weblog/default.aspx#168 puts some cold water on the Mac mini and Tiger in particular with the talk about Core Image.

Lets hope that Apple will do an update of the Mac mini with a better GPU when Tiger is released. Though I doubt that will happen since that would mean an update in only 4 to 5 months time. Never heard of Apple doing such a quick update to a particular system before.

I agree - it sure seems like this will be the Mac mini available upon Tiger's release. My understanding regarding Core Image is that it's not meant for accelerating the GUI (that's what Quartz Extreme does); instead, its purpose is to make the image editing process easier and more powerful.

 

[Macky-Mac]

Well, if Apple writes "single user license", that means Apple licenses their software to actual people, meaning you can install the software on all the computers you own for yourself....

opps, my bad! it says "single use license" and not "single user license".....I still cant type after all these years

and the license does indeed limit the software to being installed on one computer at a time

 

[KD7IWP]

Oh I can't wait! Shiver me timbers.

 

[Macky-Mac]

Unless the license is written on the box, software EULAs have always been deemed useless by court. You see the legal text once you're half-way through installing the software, but you had to open the box for that. And stores don't refund opened boxes.

Companies can't have it both ways.

maybe that's true in Canada but I'm finding that's not the case in the USA.

It seems that the legal issues surrounding EULA enforcement are still relatively new and making their way through the court system.

As it turns out, "Shrink-wrap" EULA have indeed been enforced by court decisions......even when there isn't a copy of the actual license on the exterior of the box.

 

[chanoc]

I used to think so too.......however, recently I bought a copy of 10.3 from Other World Computing. It was advertised as "full install but no retail box." What arrived were 3 CDs in a plastic wrap with a printed Apple "single user license."

The CDs all had "eMac" printed on them and contained OS 10.3 without any of the subsequent updates to 10.3.x......I assume they are left over product that Apple no longer ships with a new eMac because they are so out of date with the current OS 10.3.x release.

They installed just fine on my old G3 500 iBook. There was nothing in the software license that limited their use to an eMac.

Other World Computing has a good reputation on this board so I don't think they would be selling these as "full install" if they were actually going to install a version that was limited to just the eMac.

would they??

I see this for sale on many eBay auctions, and it's perfectly legit. Ebay is very strict on selling software. They shut down my Win XP Pro (OEM) auction, as I did not advertise a piece of hardware to go with the auction.

 

[matthew24]

It would be nice, if you could buy a famliy-pack with a new machine, wouldn't it? But buying twice for personal use, no way!