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USB-C is the future. The MacBook Pro will probably get 2 Thunderbolt 3 ports when it is completely redesigned, since it offers the benefits of USB-C. The MacBook of the future may or may not get Thunderbolt 3. In any case, the MacBook Air will gradually be deprecated and the MacBook will be the entry level Mac in a few years.

It would be a shame if it didn't have at least one Thunderbolt port. I suppose it wouldn't be necessary for those purchasing such a wireless bound notebook in the first place but if the plans are to add anything to the MacBook other than a second or more USB-C ports, it should be Thunderbolt, as it is probably one of the most versatile technologies of recent times, which is useful on a device that limits physical connectivity in favor of statistical portability.
 
It would be a shame if it didn't have at least one Thunderbolt port. I suppose it wouldn't be necessary for those purchasing such a wireless bound notebook in the first place but if the plans are to add anything to the MacBook other than a second or more USB-C ports, it should be Thunderbolt, as it is probably one of the most versatile technologies of recent times, which is useful on a device that limits physical connectivity in favor of statistical portability.

You saw the recent news that future Thunderbolt implementations will be able to be integrated into the USB-C connector, right?
 
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No, clearly not regarding my post, but thanks for the information.

I think it's both a positive and a negative. A single port type seems great, but I think there is going to end up being the situation where people have devices that 'fit' the ports on their computers, but aren't compatible. Seems ripe for confusion.
 
I think it's both a positive and a negative. A single port type seems great, but I think there is going to end up being the situation where people have devices that 'fit' the ports on their computers, but aren't compatible. Seems ripe for confusion.

I see, but as long as it gets implemented one way or another that would be great for the users of this laptop. I find Thunderbolt to be one of the most innovative technologies and I really like it. It can be used for a number of different things.
 
No, clearly not regarding my post, but thanks for the information.

I think it's both a positive and a negative. A single port type seems great, but I think there is going to end up being the situation where people have devices that 'fit' the ports on their computers, but aren't compatible. Seems ripe for confusion.
Yeah, TB3 will be going through USB-C in parallel. Odds on bet is that the Skylake rMB will not have more than one port, but what it almost certainly will have is the new combination TB3/USB-C port.

It couldn't be easier for the consumer. They don't even really need to know if the peripheral or accessory is a TB3 device or a USB-C device, it will just work in the same port.

The only real question is daisy-chaining. Both TB3 and USB-C are capable of doing it, but I don't think you'll be able to mix and match, meaning USB-C will have to be at the end of any chaining.
 
Let me clear something up. There is a difference between "own cloud" and "third-party cloud". The institutions you have mentioned use their own cloud and not third-party cloud solutions. Average users usually use "third party cloud".
I have posted some links that deal with the question of safety and security of third-party cloud services. Read them. Take your time.
Yeah, of course, but what does that have to do with the discussion? Now you are having to qualify your own position. I mean, even an off the shelf 3rd party cloud solution like Dropbox for Business with built-in data encryption is more secure than carrying around your sensitive data in a bag with you all the time. Something like ownCloud as mentioned earlier is an even better small business solution for those small businesses that actually have a semi-IT resource within the company. Many simply skip that because their cost/benefit analysis tells them that having an IT employee on board to manage that isn't worth it compared to a relatively safe and secure no-maintenance 3rd party option.

I mean what it boils down to is that you have been saying that physical media is more safe and secure than using the cloud, in general, and that the rMB fails because, according to your personal view, it doesn't offer a wide enough selection of built-in wired connectivity. The majority in this section of the forums (naturally) disagree and feel the rMB fits perfectly into their use case and workflow. That's why they bought it.

There has been a lot of discussion here about "moving to the future" and dropping legacy ports, changing and updating your workflow to stay in sync with the times, etc.

Let's forget all that and agree that in this day and age, there are people that have differing opinions and thought processes around how they are comfortable sharing, transporting, and transfering data. If the Cloud is too much of a risk for you personally, that's great. Buy an rMBP and be happy. Let's just not go on a crusade against the rMB to legitimise you own views on the subject amongst a group who obviously feel otherwise. I get that you are most likely not singling out the rMB per say, but rather the design direction the rMB signifies for Apple's laptops going forward. While you probably are right to be worried if this direction doesn't suit you, you've made your point now, and we all get it and understand your viewpoint. I think all that can be expressed here has been, and more, for better or for worse! :);):apple:
 
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I see, but as long as it gets implemented one way or another that would be great for the users of this laptop. I find Thunderbolt to be one of the most innovative technologies and I really like it. It can be used for a number of different things.
This is true, but the new USB-C 3.1 gen 2 standard is essentially equivalent to TB1. 10Gbit/sec bandwidth, DP 1.2, HDMI, 100W power, etc. USB 3.1 gen 1 is already a sort of TB-lite :)
 
I get that you are most likely not singling out the rMB per say, but rather the design direction the rMB signifies for Apple's laptops going forward.
Generally speaking the design direction seems to be smaller and lighter which necessarily means removal of ports, especially legacy ones. That said, I point to the last aluminum MacBook model prior to this one. Apple removed the FireWire port, which was already long in the tooth, yet in wide use. Less than a year later, that MacBook was discontinued, and the FireWire port was returned to all MacBook models (except the Air which never had it), where it remained for several more years. Now why would they do that if there was some portion of Apple's customers that were fine buying that MacBook without a FireWire port? Clearly they made a mistake, recognized it, and corrected it.

The rMB has two ports, one is just an antiquated single function audio port. Space and utility which would be better applied to a second USB-C port, and moving the external DAC to an adapter/dongle, just like every other non-native USB-C device which will have to be plugged into this port. Perhaps there are technical reasons that Apple could not implement this configuration in this particular model, that remains to be seen. Nevertheless having two multipurpose ports makes far more sense than just the one, with what is essentially a vestigial audio port given all the far superior options for getting sound out of the rMB, which has the effect of serving a much wider customer base and adoption of this new paradigm, not to mention quicker discontinuation of the legacy MacBooks.
 
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This has not been my experience at all. The typical wifi transfer rate is 4-5MB/sec. And often slower depending on how congested a wifi network may be. So a 2 GB file would take over 6 minutes. So if I want to transfer several movies, I'm looking 30-60 minutes, compared to pulling them off a drive, or over Ethernet, which is typically up to 10x that rate.

You really need to update your WIFI network with either newer or less crap equipment - or add additional access points so you're not so far away from an AP.

I see routinely see transfer rates of 20-30 megabytes per second on 802.11N with 6-7 year old WIFI gear (Airport Extreme). 802.11AC is quite a bit faster than that.

Sure, gigabit ethernet will get me 100 megabytes per sec and is faster, but if you're only seeing 4-5 meg per sec there's something wrong with your network or it's just ancient.


And yes, cloud doesn't mean you need no storage, unless you REALLY have great internet and very rarely if ever go anywhere you don't.

Here where I live, mobile data is expensive and internet speeds are slow.

Local SSD access to content is much, much faster than waiting for it to download from the cloud, even on a 100 megabit internet connection.

My SSD reads at 1.3 gigaBYTES per second, which is about 130 times faster. I didn't buy an SSD equipped machine to wait 130x longer to access my data when i need it.

If you want to do anything even half serious with the machine (like say, cut together a bunch of go-pro footage, which is not an uncommon or special purpose use these days), then you can easily need a hundred gigs or so of local storage (at least while you're sorting it out) for a long weekend's footage, even if you're only using 1 camera.

And that's only dealing with 1080p.

Cloud storage isn't a magic "i need barely any local storage" solution unless you're doing very limited things with your machine.
 
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You really need to update your WIFI network with either newer or less crap equipment - or add additional access points so you're not so far away from an AP. I see routinely see transfer rates of 20-30 megabytes per second on 802.11N with 6-7 year old WIFI gear (Airport Extreme). 802.11AC is quite a bit faster than that. Sure, gigabit ethernet will get me 100 megabytes per sec and is faster, but if you're only seeing 4-5 meg per sec there's something wrong with your network or it's just ancient.

Oh, I don't disagree that I could update my equipment (I currently have an AirPort Time Capsule 3G), which services up to 10 devices simultaneously. But here's the real limitation, at least with respect to Cloud access which is exactly what's being discussed here. I have Time Warner Cable as an internet provider, the only one available to me in my neighborhood. I'm currently paying $40/month for a mid-tier service of "up to" 30Mbps down, and 5Mbps up. The key is the "up to" disclaimer which alludes to the often underperforming overpriced service. So even with a faster internal network, I am not likely to see substantially faster speeds to access the cloud. Time Warner offers 2 tiers below that price range with even slower speeds. So this gets back to my point of what the average customer will have in their homes. To say nothing of cellular hotspots, or other publicly available wifi. I just did a speed test on my iPhone this morning -- 5 bars, LTE, and my download and upload speeds were 17Mbps Up and 11Mbps down. And I often experience less than impressive speeds at Starbucks or my gym, especially when a lot of people are sharing the bandwidth.

Also, the only type of NAS I have on my network is a Time Capsule. And my wireless network so far has been suitable for daily backups (anything else and I plug into Ethernet). So I'm used to keeping all my archived data on outboard drives, and haven't had a need to upgrade my internal network, until I have a need for greater internet speeds at home.

So again, back to the average customer for the rMB ... unless their home networks are state of the art, or they use it primarily at the office, the wireless connectivity thing is really impractical for transferring large files via the average home network, most public accessible wifi, cellular hot spots, airplanes, and the like. And I don't really see that changing much before the useful life of this MacBook is over, by which time 802.11ad will probably be the standard. So for the average user, large file transfers and backups are likely best achieved via physical connections with this particular MacBook, making a second USB-C port more desirable. And as you point out, the average consumer tends to buy a Mac for its media capabilities which tend to equate with very large file storage needs - the wireless infrastructure for which is just not there yet.
 
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I make heavy use of cloud services with a 50/5 primary connection, but I don't care about the transfer speed because the transfers almost always happen silently in the background while I'm doing something else. And with 512GB of space, I can have most of my stuff set to hold a local copy. On the off chance that I need to move something large in a short timespan, I would either connect to my Ethernet or just directly to the disk, and as it's a fast connection (the whole point, right?) it won't matter that I'm not charging. If you need an always on fast connection, the usb-docking stations are on their way.

I truly fail to see how this will be an issue for all but a few people - and mostly people who would scoff at this machine anyhow.
 
On the off chance that I need to move something large in a short timespan, I would either connect to my Ethernet or just directly to the disk, and as it's a fast connection (the whole point, right?) it won't matter that I'm not charging. If you need an always on fast connection, the usb-docking stations are on their way. I truly fail to see how this will be an issue for all but a few people - and mostly people who would scoff at this machine anyhow.

Oh, I don't see it as an issue for me. I'm not even scoffing at the rMB. And, I've actually got no problems shuffling dongles around, as I have a few I'm currently using now. But, I know how I like to work, and at most this would be an inconvenience for me. You mention plugging into Ethernet to briefly move files around. And while that's not likely to be a problem to run out of power on a full charge even if you're backing up your whole drive, it's more about convenience. Let's say I'm working on a project and I want to pull in files from an external drive. Well I have to stop and unplug the power, plug in the drive, every time I even want to access a file, much less if I want to save incremental changes as I go. Or I just leave the power unplugged the entire time, and run down my battery so it's not a full charge when I'm ready to leave. And that's where the hubs and dongles come in. And that's where this Mac becomes an inconvenience for me. In order to plug in just one extra standard device, I have to either chose how to manage my power, or invest in a dock, which I then have to travel with if I need to work with external devices on the road (thereby diminishing the benefits of the ultra portability being sold here).

You say this issue will only affect a few people who are interested in this Mac, but I'm not convinced. I think a great many people are interested in the rMB, particularly the ones who were waiting for a Retina display on the MBA, and are wrestling with the pros and cons. I suspect many will buy it and use it, putting up with the limitations -- heck several folks in this thread are using it with wired devices already and dealing with the inconvenience over their last MacBook. What I consider a much smaller margin are likely going to have no problems with it at all. And still others are going to reject it in the end. I actually think a very small minority in the market for an ultra portable MacBook are going to outright scoff at it.
 
And it's likely what the average wifi user is going to encounter in many public and private locations at present.

My wireless network consists of the newest Airport Extreme Base Station. Nothing fancy or special at all. I have done nothing to optimize my wireless network for speed. I have not changed the frame size, changed the MTU and I have even located the router inside a rack close the floor in a corner (the opposite of what is usually recommended).

So only a $200-$300 expense in a new wireless router is going to get you great wireless speed.


You don't watch movies on your MacBook? Many do, as evidenced by the screen ratio of the MBA.

Only the 11" MBA has a 16:9 aspect ratio and yet it do not support 1080p.
I believe very few Macbook owners maintain their own movie library either by ripping DVDs or pirating. They are using services like Netflix, Popcorn Time and iTunes, and their choice of device for movie watching is an iPad.


While the home network you describe would be a dream, the average person buying a new MacBook is not looking to invest another $1-2K into additional equipment for their home to have a screaming network, especially since doing so doesn't serve up the internet any faster than the connection speed they are paying for.

Again, it requires only to buy a AC router which is an $200-$300 expense.

$1-2k is required if you want a big NAS (think 8Tb), wireless laser printer or wireless ink printer/scanner which if of course optional.

I would also suggest that doing most of your work on a remote server is also atypical of the average MacBook users needs.

Most users are not doing heavy computational stuff locally on their computers and they are not downloading huge amount of data all the time.

I would argue that everything a user does is not computational taxing (over time) except for the following tasks:
Non casual gaming
Advanced video editing (including ripping and transcoding)
Advanced audio editing
Advanced photo editing
Simulations

Everything else, the Macbook should be able to handle just fine. So I would argue that a lot of users would be just fine with a Macbook as long as they live in a wireless world.

the download speed of the internet at any given access point is not likely to anywhere near close to the speeds your getting at home on your state of the art network.

Again, people are not downloading huge amount of files every time they use a computer. Many use services like Dropbox which downloads the files in small quantities. I have about 500Gb in Dropbox and there is now problem keeping all of it or a subset of it in sync with all my Macs. And I only have a 15/5 Mbit line at home.

The question you should ask is this? How much new and changed data that you need to transfer or backup do you generate each day? For me the answer is almost always less than 1Gb. Usually just a few megabytes. All Internet connections I have can handle this. And I guess the answer is pretty much the same for a lot of people.


Also, if you don´t see a difference in screen quality between retina and non-retina, no wonder you don´t see the value in the rMB. I have both a 11" MBA, a 13" rMBP and access to a 13" MBA in addition to the rMB, and the MBA´s screen are so poor, especially when it comes to text compared to the retina screens. Esp. the 11" MBA has a pretty bad screen.
 
Let's say I'm working on a project and I want to pull in files from an external drive. Well I have to stop and unplug the power, plug in the drive, every time I even want to access a file, much less if I want to save incremental changes as I go.

Why are you having your project files on an external disk?
Here lies your problem with a wireless world. You need to store your data locally or on a network service for it to make sense.

Here is what I do:
1. I open a Word document on a project I am working on from the local file system
2. Make changes
3. Saves the file
4. A background task moves the new version to a file server or a cloud service.

Or maybe this workflow:
1. Open an Excel spreadsheet directly from a file server or checks it out from a document management system
2. Make changes
3. Saves the files directly back to the file server or check the document into the DMS.

As you can see there is no need for an external drive in such workflows and therefore the port really becomes unimportant.

Also another issue you don´t need to have. You do not make complete backups of your whole machine all the time. You make one complete backup _once_, and then you do incremental backups thereafter. You do not store your backups on external drives. You use a NAS, a file server or a cloud service. And you might think that this requires huge amount of bandwidth? No, because you are only doing incremental backups!

No if you are doing video editing or audio editing, dealing with huge amount of data, then a wireless world is much more difficult and expensive to achieve. But then again, you should not buy a rMB at all.
 
Not to mention that if I were working on a project from an external drive - whether I was on my Macbook or any other computer, I would almost certainly copy it to the local drive to work on it! Unless I'm sitting at my desk, USB connections are not terribly reliable. Even at my desk I've had cables come unseated and cause faults during writes.
 
XPS 13 is definitely the best laptop out there at the moment. No comprimises.

Except Windows 8.1/10 and the fact that it's heavier than the MacBook Air, and gets pricey if you want the nice screen. It's a nice notebook, to be sure, but there are certainly some compromises.
 
So only a $200-$300 expense in a new wireless router is going to get you great wireless speed.

For someone who has just spent $1300 or more, telling they will need to spend another $300 to get the best results with their single port MB, isn't the best news. Telling them they will need a port and multiple dongles is bad enough.

Moreover, that solution only works to the extent someone has a home network server, otherwise to access the cloud they are limited by the speed of their internet service. In my case a faster router doesn't change a thing as far as accessing the cloud. And yes I do have a wireless color laser printer.

Only the 11" MBA has a 16:9 aspect ratio and yet it do not support 1080p.
I believe very few Macbook owners maintain their own movie library either by ripping DVDs or pirating. They are using services like Netflix, Popcorn Time and iTunes, and their choice of device for movie watching is an iPad.

We're comparing the rMB it to the 11" MBA. And why does anyone need 1080p on an 11" screen? There's no reason, from both a clarity, storage, and power perspective. The fact that you don't keep movies on hard drives does not reflect the majority of movie collectors, who absolutely keep their movies on hard drives, especially ones who started collecting on DVD and have since ripped their collections to digital. Watching streaming services is all well and good until you find yourself in a situation without reliable internet, and there are plenty of movies that I want to see which aren't available on the streaming services. So I don't buy it.

I would argue that everything a user does is not computational taxing (over time) except for the following tasks:
Non casual gaming
Advanced video editing (including ripping and transcoding)
Advanced audio editing
Advanced photo editing
Simulations

You're assigning your habits to everyone. For working on documents, your workflow is great (at least until the internet isn't accessible to you and you can't retrieve a document). In fact, editing documents is likely the best use of the rMB. But you behave as if photo collections aren't a major part of people's lives, and editing movies and photos isn't something that a lot people do, especially younger ones. I see the rMB like the original polycarbonate MacBook. When Apple removed the Firewire port from that MacBook there was an outcry from all those people who used Firewire connected cameras for video editing, something that MacBook was used heavily for. Apple promptly responded by putting the FW port back in the very next model. Heck, Apple gives people an audio creation/editing suite, a video editing suite, and increasingly sophisticated photo suite of software. Average consumers own copies of Photoshop. So the idea people want to access disk drives to work offline with a large number of files that don't fit on relatively small internal storage capacities, is far from unusual.

I have about 500Gb in Dropbox and there is now problem keeping all of it or a subset of it in sync with all my Macs. And I only have a 15/5 Mbit line at home.The question you should ask is this? How much new and changed data that you need to transfer or backup do you generate each day? For me the answer is almost always less than 1Gb. Usually just a few megabytes. All Internet connections I have can handle this. And I guess the answer is pretty much the same for a lot of people.

Again, all this is great until you lose your internet connection. I have a time capsule since I would never trust the cloud to back up all of my data. And most of the time the incremental backup is fine. But there are times when I change a lot of big files at once, or don't have reliable access to the internet where I'm working on them.

Why are you having your project files on an external disk?
Here lies your problem with a wireless world. You need to store your data locally or on a network service for it to make sense. No if you are doing video editing or audio editing, dealing with huge amount of data, then a wireless world is much more difficult and expensive to achieve. But then again, you should not buy a rMB at all.

Well there you go. Since this also seems to be Apple's position they have to continue offering the MBA, which means Apple is now supporting 5 product lines in a declining computer market, when they only really need 3 models.

The reality is, people do store a lot of data on local disks, as cloud solutions can be expensive, and average people don't trust their data to it, whether it's their precious family photos and home movies, or their collections of music and movies. I have well over 55,000 songs in my iTunes collection, which resides on an external drive. I can't use iTunes Match because it has a 25K limit. I can't rely on Spotify because all the artists aren't represented there, nor is it accessible without a reliable internet connection. And I don't want to store them on my limited Mac hard drive, which I use for everything. And that's but just one practical example.

So while I appreciate that the wireless world works for you, it doesn't work for everyone, and it may never will, at least in the near future. So in the interim, by limiting what the rMB can do, they end up cannibalizing their existing product line, while at the same time going to the expense of maintaining at least two extra products they don't really need.
 
All I can think is that it is Apple's road to thin. We watched the 6 loose structural integrity for the sake of thin and now they decide to strip out the ports to make the MB thin.

Enough of the thin, I do not want to lose useful features just for thin!

I agree. The iPad Air 2 suffers from wicked screen vibrations due to thinness. This new MB seems like a cool unit but damnit... Zero connectivity ports which simply stinks. Sure, they make other products but IMO this MB with a USB port could have replaced the MBA and been the "bomb". Instead.... Having trouble finding it to be a good value.
 
I'd be happy if I knew Apple was going to leave ports on other devices. Yet because its Apple who like to stuff us around, I have a bad feeling that the Macbook Pro will loose ports. I'd personally love if they started updating the classic Macbook Pro again, retaining it as an option for those who want ports and expandability. Then they can stuff around with other products and make them into i-devices.
 
I'd be happy if I knew Apple was going to leave ports on other devices. Yet because its Apple who like to stuff us around, I have a bad feeling that the Macbook Pro will loose ports. I'd personally love if they started updating the classic Macbook Pro again, retaining it as an option for those who want ports and expandability. Then they can stuff around with other products and make them into i-devices.

At the risk of going off topic, that's an interesting thought. The 12" rMB is limited by space, there's literally no more room for much more than the ports they put on it. That's one of the reasons they will eventually have to get rid of the 1/8" audio jack in order to make the case thinner and lighter, as it is almost larger in diameter than the case is high.

And it's hard to imagine that the MBP won't suffer the same fate eventually as the internal hardware can be miniaturized to the same extent as the rMB and remain as powerful. The saving grace here is that in order to continue to offer a 15" screen, it's going to be a long while before all of these ports can no longer be accommodated by the case design. And even if they approximate the same thinness of the rMB, there's a lot more room behind the keyboard to fit those ports. But I would argue even here that an 1/8" audio jack is the least necessary port on a PRO MB designed to accommodate as many ports as possible in as limited space. I think we'll see a lot more USB-C and breakout dongles as the designs get smaller, but at least they will offer full functionality, and multiple expansion without having to carry around an extra dock.

Then again, I'm still stunned they took Ethernet off the 15" MBP, as our IT guys carry around their laptops and hook into the wired network all the time to access stuff behind the firewall and troubleshoot setups.
 
Example of how having local storage is nice.... i just copied 250 gigabytes of video training material to my SSD over ethernet at 100 megabytes per second yesterday. The copy was done in well under an hour (i didn't time it). If i was relying on external hard drives, that would have taken 2-3 times as long. And i'd have to have remembered to take the hard drive to class. If i was trying to use cloud storage, it would still be running.
 
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