why is apple so far behind?

[ddtlm]

TEG:

I will say the Intel, AMD, and VIA have worked at increasing the MHz. Numbers on their chips, but the throughput of their systems have only recently begun to improve over the levels 6 years ago, thanks to PCI-Express, SATA and other things. Apple on the other hand ... they push the envelop by making their own standards (ADC, FireWire, AirPort)

So since ADC is mostly DVI and AirPort is 802.11, that leaves Apple with FireWire, which they co-developed with Sony under the ieee 1394 standard. One co-invention does not put them ahead of the PC world on my innovation-o-meter, though clearly some people are more symathetic to Apple than I.

Comparison:
HP Laptop; P-IVm 3.2 GHz; 256MB RAM, 40GB 5400 RPM HD
PowerBook G4; G4- 500 MHz; 256MB RAM (at that time), 20GB 4800 RPM HD
... benchmarks, etc ...

I have no idea how you managed to get such astonishly awful scores out of the HP, but you'll be a fool to think that those represent PC's as a whole. (Well, except for the ~2hr battery life. )

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Thanks everybody, youve helped a ton me with my concerns about making the switch. I'm going to be putting an order for a 1.2 ghz ibook. I'm still somewhat concerned about Apple's secrecy about upcoming products, but nothing is gonna change that so I guess I'll have to live with it. I can see that down the road if I 'm happy with Mac's and stay with them I'll have a hard time gauging when to purchase products, I can already feel the misery of buying a $2000 computer only for apple to come out with something better soon after or it to get a price drop.

Congrats.

Don't have any concerns. The difference between the Mac and Windows arena is that Intel and AMD spread the word early about their chips. IMO Apple is concerned about how well the machines will meet their needs, as well as the consumer.

Just look at some postings here and you will find that there are a good number of users with "old" machines that are able to do the job. In the Windows world, many of these machines might only be good for email and the web.

 

[Timelessblur]

Hey time, youve illustrated well what Ive been saying here the whole time. Why is XP full of these security holes to begin with. If MS was truly concerned about making a good OS they could have put the time and money into doing it right to begin with. Can you give me a good reason why after spending nearly $3000 dollars on this computer I should have to deal with closing up security holes?

Also time for your edification its not people like me who are the problem, its corporations like MS who push inept software and tell us to shove it because we have little choice, (with the exception of abandoning PC's all together and switching to Apple) I feel like I have no option except doing exactly that

but wait apple release security updates... that means it is full of secuirty holes a well. I just point out keep you system upto date is a good idea. If it is not kept up to date and people dont bother even trying (aka turning it off and never even updating) I blame them for their stupidity and they get what they deserve.

It one thing if there was no update or if it was released in the past week or 2 but it another if the update is over a month old.
Does M$ have holes in it Yes. Does apple have seciryt holes in it YES other wise there would be no secuirty updates.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Thanks leftnut,

That is exactly how I feel about purchasing any high end product, especially computers. For the thousands of dollars they ask and the hundreds of millions of dollars that go into R&D we should be able to expect more. That is what I feel the problem with MS is, they have the market basically locked up with almost no competition so what we get are so-so products with little ingenuity. Its sad because with the resources MS has to work with they could be putting out amazing products.

Don't know if you ordered yet, but you are now sounding like a true Mac user....

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

I'm guessing you haven't used PDF creator? My friend and I used to use Acrobat, but that thing was so full of bloat we went down to just the reader (to read pdfs), and used the PDF creator when we needed to convert our word documents to PDFs (e.g. for resumes or whatever).

can you give more info, my boss might just be interested if it free!

 

[Mav451]

Its open source software:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/

...so I'm pretty sure it free.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Its open source software:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/

...so I'm pretty sure it free.

thanks I will check it out.

 

[dejo]

Its open source software:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/

...so I'm pretty sure it free.

Also, Mac OS X has PDF creation built in! Just go to the Print dialog of most apps and choose "Save As PDF..."

 

[sorryiwasdreami]

I also like the whole start menu. I like accessing my program using it. I find going through finder to get to my app a pita for some reason. I don't want to have to open windows to get to things.

Sounds like you should try out Quicksilver and TigerLaunch or use the dock itself.

Windows, it just works.

That's funny and ironic.

 

[dejo]

I also like the whole start menu. I like accessing my program using it. I find going through finder to get to my app a pita for some reason. I don't want to have to open windows to get to things.

Try clicking and holding the Applications icon in the Dock. It'll then bring up a floating menu allowing you to choose your app. To paraphrase C-3PO: "very similar to the Start menu in most respects".

 

[sunilraman]

Thanks everybody, youve helped a ton me with my concerns about making the switch. I'm going to be putting an order for a 1.2 ghz ibook. I'm still somewhat concerned about Apple's secrecy about upcoming products, but nothing is gonna change that so I guess I'll have to live with it. I can see that down the road if I 'm happy with Mac's and stay with them I'll have a hard time gauging when to purchase products, I can already feel the misery of buying a $2000 computer only for apple to come out with something better soon after or it to get a price drop.

hi there, i am happy you have decided to take the plunge. i too was very worried about knowing when to buy. but something like this sites BuyersGuide is very useful...

https://buyersguide.macrumors.com//
It keeps excellent track of when products were updated and all that.
If you are skeptical about it, just discuss with people on this forum.

As you can see for the iBook, you are in 'mid cycle'. The red bar is half of the blue bars below that. Meaning that new models realistically wont be shipping for maybe 3 months. Regardless of how secretive Apple can be, in the iBook for example, there is a strong pattern of new iBooks every April and Oct/Nov, going back all the way to 2002.

There will always be the latest and greatest coming out, and saving for your dreams is always sometimes inspirational and sometimes frustrating. But I think your iBook 12" will be a fun start, and you can enjoy it right from Day 01. The screen is really razor sharp as well... After using it a while, if you have a CRT on your PC, looking at it will be like comparing a cleaver with a baseball bat...

 

[thorshammer88]

Time, maybe you should read the words you quoted me on earlier again. Who do you think you are to come here and call me stupid for not wanting to run updates that have screwed up my computer so much in the past. Did you even read what you just quoted me on? Also, what are these trojans and virus' that Macs are vulnerable to? I thought there werent any. Does Apple have the problem of what you stated in your first post of someone being able to remotely access your computer and screw it up? If not, why does a software company as large as microsoft? You must blame your own stupidity for allowing those people to get access to your computer right?

 

[notjustjay]

but wait apple release security updates... that means it is full of secuirty holes a well. I just point out keep you system upto date is a good idea. If it is not kept up to date and people dont bother even trying (aka turning it off and never even updating) I blame them for their stupidity and they get what they deserve.

It one thing if there was no update or if it was released in the past week or 2 but it another if the update is over a month old.
Does M$ have holes in it Yes. Does apple have seciryt holes in it YES other wise there would be no secuirty updates.

Right, but the big difference is that I have never heard of an Apple system being compromised by hackers exploiting a vulnerability. Either nobody tries, or Apple is really proactive about patching up security updates before any damage occurs. Whereas with Windows, it's almost like you first hear about the debilitating virus or hacker attack that exploited a security hole, and then a week later Microsoft issues the update to patch it.

And Apple's security updates are issued less frequently.

 

[Mav451]

Right, but the big difference is that I have never heard of an Apple system being compromised by hackers exploiting a vulnerability. Either nobody tries, or Apple is really proactive about patching up security updates before any damage occurs. Whereas with Windows, it's almost like you first hear about the debilitating virus or hacker attack that exploited a security hole, and then a week later Microsoft issues the update to patch it.

And Apple's security updates are issued less frequently.

If there's one thing XP did wrong (until SP2), was the enforcing of users to update/patch.

When OSX has security vulnerabilities, and yes they do exist, the Apple Update application starts RIGHT AFTER STARTUP. I mean, it gets in your face that your OS is outdated >> of course any user would update it then.

SP2 at least forces the user to make the decision to enable/disable auto-update; and well, auto-update is very good for those nutjob users who continue to blindly use IE.

It's sad, I agree, that MS waited until now (nearly 3 years after XP) to enable a much stricter updating policy on XP. If this kind of enforcement was there in 2001, Blaster and other worms would not be successful. Why? B/c MS patches these vulnerabilities weeks to months before it hit, and yet, most users do not know that they are unpatched.

 

[EvilCrabMonkey]

Either you're just fishing for arguments or you really have not much experience with OSX.

If you like the taskbar that much it's basically the same as the dock (only that the app icons you put there stay after closing). Click on the app icon and it switches to that app. There you go.

As for the start menu... if you don't like to put a lot of icons in your dock (I can understand that) just put the app folder right next to your trash. Click on it with the right mouse button, voila you have a start menu like app folder...

And saying that you like to look at unrefined graphics and crude operating systems... why don't you use 3.1? Is that crude enough for you?

Oh, the dock works, there's no question about that. It's just not quick enough. But that's inherent in the whole elegant design of osx. I never said it sucked, I just said it wasn't as good for me as the windows quick and dirty approach. Now, if windows 3.1 was even a viable option, why not? Although, I can't remember the last time I had that running on a computer.

Realistically though, it's not that I don't have a lot of experience in the os. Maybe not as much as the majority of the people here, but I have been using it at least 5 days a week 8 hours a day for the the past 6 months. So it's not like I don't know how to get around the os.

 

[Yvan256]

So what you are all telling me is that MHz ratings don't mean anything? Two 1.8 ghz computers can run very differently? So what is the point in this rating if it means little besides marketing?

Clock speed is a fact (although no real basis for comparison anymore), but marketing just hangs onto that (especially intel since they got the higher clock speeds).

As another member already said, look at what AMD (and even intel, now) is doing. My CPU is an AMD Athlon XP 2400+, but the real clock speed is "only" 1.92GHz.

Also, my computer runs the World Community Grid Agent. This agent rates my processor at "193", and the basis for comparison is a Pentium 4/1.5GHz which is rated at "100". If you take the clock speeds alone, my CPU's is only 490 MHz faster than a P4/1.5GHz. Let's say that's roughly 500MHz, or 25% faster. If clock speed was everything, my score would be about 125, not 193! So if we take that client as a basis for comparing my Athlon vs their reference Pentium 4, my CPU runs as fast as a 2.9 GHz Pentium 4 (even though my real clock speed is "only" 1.92 GHz).

What all this means is: the relative speed difference puts my AMD as "1GHz faster" than the reference P4, even though in reality it's only 490MHz faster.

Even shorter answer: clock speed isn't a measure for computational power.

One last thing though, if the whole mhz rating is a marketing ploy, why isnt apple doing what they can to get theirs up to compete better with pc's? Thanks again for the help

Apple doesn't make their CPUs, Motorola/Freescale and IBM do. Increasing clock speeds has hit a huge wall in 2004, even intel trashed their own GHz planning. Check out their new offerings, and you won't see any GHz ratings as being a main feature of their new CPUs. Also, higher clocked CPUs require more power (bad for laptops), produce more heat and require more cooling, making for noisy computers.

Here's the usual "car analogy":
If you got a huge, powerful engine (like a transport truck), would you try to compete with the insane RPMs of a motorbike? Nope. The truck has lower RPMs but can still beat the motorbike as far as brute force is concerned.

 

[Yvan256]

If you go Mac, you are saying goodbye to a lifetime study of trying to be a Windows security and compatibility expert.

Nice marketing line.

 

[Yvan256]

So Apple does have a marketing problem, but the problem is *not* "how can they get the MHz up to keep up". That's like saying "Many pro basketball players are 7'; why isn't Steve Nash doing what he can about getting taller so he can compare with them?"

Is there a points system on macrumors? I'd like to give some to CanadaRAM for using a non-car analogy.

 

[Yvan256]

thanks but, Ive seen that one already during my research into Mac's. Look at the source, Im not saying that they are not telling the truth but apple isnt going to be very objective

Sorry for the car analogy (again), but that's like trying to compare Honda vs Toyota/Nissan.

Do you want a really fast, really powerful engine (that goes almost nowhere since you're limited by speed laws) but a crappy ride (Honda doesn't equal comfort in my view). Or do you want a nice engine and a really great ride with very few problems?

Do you want a really fast CPU that doesn't do much difference in most applications (the user is still the slowest part of the computing experience) and has an insecure OS, or do you want a CPU that's enough for the task and a very nice OS and applications?

CPU power was relevent about 5 years ago. But above 1-2GHz, most people won't even notice the differenc for most applications.

Or forget car analogies. What console has the faster CPU? The most RAM? The best GPU? The most VRAM?

When consoles come out, everyone tries to crunch the numbers. Then after the crazyness dies down, what do people talk about? The games.

My point? The PS3 and Xbox2 won't mean anything to me since they won't have Zelda nor Metroid.

Forget the specs, see what you can DO with the systems. If it can do what you want better/easier than the others, take it. If you think iLife is great, get a Mac. It's that simple.

 

[wrldwzrd89]

<snip>
Here's the usual "car analogy":
If you got a huge, powerful engine (like a transport truck), would you try to compete with the insane RPMs of a motorbike? Nope. The truck has lower RPMs but can still beat the motorbike as far as brute force is concerned.

That's the best "car analogy" I've yet seen. You're good at analogies, Yvan256.

 

[stevietheb]

So a year ago i got my parents to buy me a powerbook and set up a plan to where i would pay them back in full with a small amount of interest over time.

Your parents charged you interest? Harsh!

As for me, I decided I needed a laptop for school about a year and a half ago. I was in fry's and saw the macs. I had never considered purchasing a mac because I thought OS 9 looked hokey...but when I saw that pretty pretty Panther at Fry's...I was hooked. [I was switching from a 600 MHz P2...so obviously the G4 800 MHz was a speed demon by comparison...now the iMac--don't get me started...]

SO, now my wife and I have an iBook and an iMac G5. We couldn't be happier. Still trying to convince our parents that they should get the Mac Mini...

One thing that people here haven't mentioned (unless I just missed it) is the freeware. I've found free applications to do just about everything I could imagine...and often those applications are very elegantly done (such as "Meteorologist"). This was never the case with Windows (in my experience).

Finally, in terms of gaming--I'm a fan of World of Warcraft..kudoes to Blizzard for co-developing for the Mac platform!

 

[deputy_doofy]

I realize this concept has been beaten to death, but it really is about how fast the computer feels. When I had Comcast installed, the guy installing it commented on how fast my Powerbook moved. When he asked about its MHz rating, I told him 1GHz (PB 12" ). He said he'd never seen a 1GHz machine respond like this before. Of course, he then reverted back to his Windows persona and said that he already had a 1GHz machine and wouldn't want anything that slow again.
The P4 is a super fast desktop chip, don't get me wrong, but it seems to me that it has to be that fast, because at 1GHz, it can't hold its own to the G4. That's just my opinion, mind you, based on PCs I've used around that speed.
And, Celerons...? Forget 'em. I've used Celerons at 2.2 & 2.4GHz that don't even compare. They are terrible.

 

[Jo-Kun]

hmm when I throw my PC from the top of the Taipei 101, I think it will be going much faster than my G5, at least it will feel like its going faster

just buy what you want, and when it feels slow buy a ferrari instead, they go fast enough I guess

sorry I'm in a sarcastic mood I guess

 

[EvilCrabMonkey]

My preference of windows over mac os anything asside. Realistically, the only thing apple is that far behind on is the games scene. And really, thats the only thing driving the pc market. Everyone went nuts (myself included) upgrading their computer to run doom3. And lots of people before that for hl2 when it was supposed to come out. Gotta have the fastest cpu and video card for games. Now, for the majority of the users out there. Extremely fast cpu and extremely fast video card isn't needed.

My mom for example does nothing but work with excel spreadsheets and go on aol. She's using a 1ghz amd duron with half a gig of memory. LOW end by todays standards, but it works just fine for what she does. However, once that computer kicks the bucket, I'm moving her over to a mac because when I move out, I'll never have time to build/upgrade her computer and I sure as hell don't trust the pc manufacturers/my dad to do the job right. So, for my piece of mind, she'll be getting a box that if something breaks, she can't call me to come fix it . "No mah, call the number and tell them it needs to be sent in for service." Haha, but for non intensive apps like that, and the fact that my sister likes to hijack my mom's computer and put spyware on it, will be good for her. And it's good for everyone else too.

Wow, now I sound like one of you guys...it's cuz I'm at work..damn mac

 

[thorshammer88]

Thanks yvan, I am getting a much better understanding of the different processors now. Now I dont really care about mhz ratings, I am more concerned about what a machine will do for me. My previous concerns were based on all I had to go with at the time which was the mhz rating. When I see a computer though that is 1.8 ghz in 2005 I think back in 2001 when this computer was purchased and its 1.6 ghz, so naturally Im curious about the discrepancy. Thanks a lot everybody for the help, Ill let you know how it goes with the ibook.