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why is apple so far behind?
- Thread starter thorshammer88
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jiggie2g said:
I was about to say that this was an "objective" comparison until I saw that the 1.5Ghz P4 was called a "Palomino".
The Palomino core was the very 1st AMD Athlon XP core, not a Pentium 4. I'm thinking you meant the Williamette, as the Northwood cores started at 1.6Ghz (A-core).
one vote for windows
Ok, so I'm a newb around these parts. I've been lurking ever since I cought wind about the mac mini. I do plan on getting one, and as soon as I can. However, I have to disagree when it comes to loving os x and it being so much better than windows xp. I use both os's on a daily basis, os x at work, and xp at home. Now, in the pretty graphics on my desktop department, sure os x is a bit better, but it's really not so much for me to go "oh wowzers, this is great!". And at the same time, it's not as though I get home to my xp machine and go "this is so dull and boring, I wish I had cool transparency effects." Operating systems are just there to provide me with the access to the programs I want to operate. And on that end, for me, I prefer windows.
The only real mac only type of thing that I really like is the self contained nature of the applications. I like how files aren't spread everywhere, requireing installers and uninstallers to make sure you are able to get rid of software you don't want. And even then, sometimes, you get remnants of those programs left here and there on the pc.
However, on my windows machine, I like being able to decide what hardware I use in it, and who it is manufactured by and which set of drivers I get for it, and all of the choice that is involved with the pc experience. Unlike apple, who have a nazi death grip on what hardware you use, windows is wide open.
I also like the whole start menu. I like accessing my program using it. I find going through finder to get to my app a pita for some reason. I don't want to have to open windows to get to things. And the task bar for windows, much better for me than using expose. I like being able to see what I have open. As easy as it is to move the mouse to a screen corner, it's just more convenient to have access right there at the bottom on the screen so that the window that is burried can be brought up no sweat without having to look at everything else I've got going on. And the menu bar in mac os, changing to the program you are using at the moment, sometimes, that infuriates me. I much prefer the self contained menus found in windows.
Apple has made thier interface much cleaner than microsoft has, but it limits the pace at which I work. Perhaps it's because I've been using windows far longer than mac os, but I doubt it. Windows is less refined, and that's what I like about it. You need to find something, click the friggin box that has that window's name on it and there it is. No fancy lets move the mouse here and see what we've got. Windows, it just works. It's crude, and I like it that way. I know that when longhorn is released, just like when windows xp was, the first thing I'll be doing is setting it to classic style. I don't want any fruity extra bars here and there. Just give me the basics.
Now, all that said, I can't stop telling my friends how I'm going to get a mac mini and use it to store videos and stuff on so I can take it everywhere I want to watch stuff with other people. That's going to be great. Even my small form factor pc is too big for that...and a mini itx system is just too freaking slow.
In the end, it's really a difference in two different forms of thought. Windows seems to be geared toward getting things done the quick and dirty way whereas OS X seems to be about getting things done with style. I can respect both, but in the end, I'll probably always pick a quick and dirty approach over a more refined one.
Ok, so I'm a newb around these parts. I've been lurking ever since I cought wind about the mac mini. I do plan on getting one, and as soon as I can. However, I have to disagree when it comes to loving os x and it being so much better than windows xp. I use both os's on a daily basis, os x at work, and xp at home. Now, in the pretty graphics on my desktop department, sure os x is a bit better, but it's really not so much for me to go "oh wowzers, this is great!". And at the same time, it's not as though I get home to my xp machine and go "this is so dull and boring, I wish I had cool transparency effects." Operating systems are just there to provide me with the access to the programs I want to operate. And on that end, for me, I prefer windows.
The only real mac only type of thing that I really like is the self contained nature of the applications. I like how files aren't spread everywhere, requireing installers and uninstallers to make sure you are able to get rid of software you don't want. And even then, sometimes, you get remnants of those programs left here and there on the pc.
However, on my windows machine, I like being able to decide what hardware I use in it, and who it is manufactured by and which set of drivers I get for it, and all of the choice that is involved with the pc experience. Unlike apple, who have a nazi death grip on what hardware you use, windows is wide open.
I also like the whole start menu. I like accessing my program using it. I find going through finder to get to my app a pita for some reason. I don't want to have to open windows to get to things. And the task bar for windows, much better for me than using expose. I like being able to see what I have open. As easy as it is to move the mouse to a screen corner, it's just more convenient to have access right there at the bottom on the screen so that the window that is burried can be brought up no sweat without having to look at everything else I've got going on. And the menu bar in mac os, changing to the program you are using at the moment, sometimes, that infuriates me. I much prefer the self contained menus found in windows.
Apple has made thier interface much cleaner than microsoft has, but it limits the pace at which I work. Perhaps it's because I've been using windows far longer than mac os, but I doubt it. Windows is less refined, and that's what I like about it. You need to find something, click the friggin box that has that window's name on it and there it is. No fancy lets move the mouse here and see what we've got. Windows, it just works. It's crude, and I like it that way. I know that when longhorn is released, just like when windows xp was, the first thing I'll be doing is setting it to classic style. I don't want any fruity extra bars here and there. Just give me the basics.
Now, all that said, I can't stop telling my friends how I'm going to get a mac mini and use it to store videos and stuff on so I can take it everywhere I want to watch stuff with other people. That's going to be great. Even my small form factor pc is too big for that...and a mini itx system is just too freaking slow.
In the end, it's really a difference in two different forms of thought. Windows seems to be geared toward getting things done the quick and dirty way whereas OS X seems to be about getting things done with style. I can respect both, but in the end, I'll probably always pick a quick and dirty approach over a more refined one.
Hmm. The thing is, it sounds as if you're having issues finding things, which is cool, because Aqua really isn't the most intuitive -- Especially when you come from Windows, and especially since X doesn't come with a manual!EvilCrabMonkey said:
In Aqua, the keyboard is used much more extensively to provide useful shortcuts, and if you decide to slap in a multi (3,4,5) button mouse these can often be assigned. Take your app/menu bar point, this can really simply be solved using the keyboard. Command/Tab cycles through apps, and Command/Tilde cycles through windows. Add to this a mouse button or two for some exposé features, and you're well on your way to having a quick, clean, and refined computing experience!
uh oh, I can just imagine people running to get their pitchforks.
I havent had much experience with Mac so I cant speak for it, but windows I think I can. I download next to nothing off the internet and try to keep as clean a computer as possible yet on a near daily basis I have to reboot my machine because it freezes or programs wont open. I get problem after problem, now for someone who says "a properly maintained PC doesnt have these problems" Im not very technical and dont have the desire to be learning how to fix all those bugs, they shouldnt be there. Computers are not cheap, and when you pay thousands of dollars for one it should run without constant problems
I havent had much experience with Mac so I cant speak for it, but windows I think I can. I download next to nothing off the internet and try to keep as clean a computer as possible yet on a near daily basis I have to reboot my machine because it freezes or programs wont open. I get problem after problem, now for someone who says "a properly maintained PC doesnt have these problems" Im not very technical and dont have the desire to be learning how to fix all those bugs, they shouldnt be there. Computers are not cheap, and when you pay thousands of dollars for one it should run without constant problems
thorshammer88 said:
1) Are you using XP? If you are on 9x, then freezing is less of a surprise.
2) Maintenance? I don't do jack for maintenance. I simply use Firefox for browsing, iTunes for listening, Thunderbird for email.
Anti-spyware? Anti-virus software? I don't use any of that and I don't waste my time with them. I ran Spybot and MS Anti-Spyware (which is really Giant) once a while ago, and I ended up wasting my time b/c it didn't find any spyware. I used to run these things back in mid 2003, when I still used IE, but ever since I switched to Firefox, there is no need.
Oh, I'm aware of keyboard shortcuts. I mean, they exist in the windows world as well. So, it's not about having a hard time finding things, it's more about, what does the gui give me to do what I want. And windows just has it sitting there for you. It's not pretty, but it works.
Now don't get me wrong, OS X works well too. It's just not the best way for me. If microsoft would redo the way programs are installed to a model more like what apple's got going on, it'd be the best os ever for me. Of course, it'll never happen.
Now, everyone talks about apple including great software that makes thier prices more in line if you consider the complete package when compared to windows boxes. Now, while I tend to agree with that, it'd be nice to have the option to not include that software. It's not costing apple a thing to throw in their own software with a new machine. If I could save 80 bucks on them including ilfe I would cut that out and save the money. But that's just me.
Now don't get me wrong, OS X works well too. It's just not the best way for me. If microsoft would redo the way programs are installed to a model more like what apple's got going on, it'd be the best os ever for me. Of course, it'll never happen.
Now, everyone talks about apple including great software that makes thier prices more in line if you consider the complete package when compared to windows boxes. Now, while I tend to agree with that, it'd be nice to have the option to not include that software. It's not costing apple a thing to throw in their own software with a new machine. If I could save 80 bucks on them including ilfe I would cut that out and save the money. But that's just me.
jiggie2g said:
Well, I won't get into the massive over generalzations that this comparison entails, but I will point a few things out. According the the systemshoutouts site you referenced, a 1.2ghz G4 is rated at a 1.6ghz P4, 1.2ghz Athlon XP, and it doesn't list the Pentium M at 1.4ghz.
I also think that while this is sorta kinda accurate it is not very consistant For example, while it clearly shows that the G4 is faster clock for clock accross the board, it lists each 200mhz increase of speed for a G4 as being 'worth' only 100mhz of increase for a P4. And then the sub 100mhz jump from 1.42ghz to 1.5ghz G4 correlates to 200mhz of P4 clock speed. Doesn't make a whole ton of sense, if you step back and think about it.
There are other things that you could find fault with in this comparison, like OS X's better usage of GPU power for 2D desktop work, etc. Also the G4's Altivec subsystem is usually better than Intels SSE/MMX, resulting in a greater improvement in some tasks. Point is that while this is an OK overall guideline, it shouldn't be taken as a literal 1:1 comparison forall things.
It is interesting to see how the G5 stacks up in these tests, though. I wonder which 1.6 and 1.8 SP systems they used for testing... PowerMacs with the full 1/2 speed FSB or the iMacs with the 1/3 speed.
Rob
Im running XP, and I did switch to firefox about 6 months ago, since then noticed a huge decrease in spyware. I download very little and Im very careful so I dont know where it comes from. I stopped downloading windows updates a long time ago when service pack 2 really messed up my computer. So maybe that has something to do with it.
Dude why would you do that? You are buying a Mac for its software. Honest to god, I would not buy it for anything else. iLife, the whole iPhoto/iMovie/Garageband suite is the reason you use a Mac. If I was doing anything else (gaming, Adobe software >> all found on PCs as well), then the reason to use a Mac is a lot less.
Especially if you aren't encountering the supposed "spyware/virus/worm" problem that Mac sites like to perpetuate. That's not a problem if you use Firefox--however some people never learn, so these people, for example, would benefit from a Mac b/c they are "forced" to use a better browser like Safari as the default.
I honestly haven't had a single system freeze since I went to XP in early 2003. Heck, I never had one on my 98SE system either. Instead of a total system crash, XP occasionally did have explorer.exe crash, which made your taskbar disappear for 10-20seconds. On the other hand, OSX has some of the very same problems, where Finder will crash making the Desktop/Dock/Menubar inaccessible for quite a bit until you can Force Quit Finder and get it restarted.
Especially if you aren't encountering the supposed "spyware/virus/worm" problem that Mac sites like to perpetuate. That's not a problem if you use Firefox--however some people never learn, so these people, for example, would benefit from a Mac b/c they are "forced" to use a better browser like Safari as the default.
I honestly haven't had a single system freeze since I went to XP in early 2003. Heck, I never had one on my 98SE system either. Instead of a total system crash, XP occasionally did have explorer.exe crash, which made your taskbar disappear for 10-20seconds. On the other hand, OSX has some of the very same problems, where Finder will crash making the Desktop/Dock/Menubar inaccessible for quite a bit until you can Force Quit Finder and get it restarted.
Its a great question you asked thorshammer and you have handled the replies very well.
I too was in the same situation as you and hestiant to take the great leap but no longer. I purchased the 17' PB Alubook middle of last year and was waiting patiently for a PB G5 but alas not to be. I dont regret the decision one bit. Simply, it has been the best computer EXPERIENCE I have had. In many instances it reminded me of how computing used to be for me when I was younger...fun! (And Im not talking about games).
I realise the PB is underpowered but in opposition to that, I realise that the form factor/weight/design of the Powerbook are part of the allure. Not to mention the software etc, that others have mentioned. Have I had problems? Sure, but they were inherently easier to figure out than if I was using a PC.
My point is that, Apple could put a G5 in a powerbook now but it would quickly become the 4 inch thick PowerBrick. They wont compromise. They'll wait for the right technology to come along and use it in a way that others can only copy. That is a mindset that rarely exists thesedays and because of that I have become more discerning about things I buy. Its more than a chunk of metal and plastic. Its a statement that you are tired of mediocrity and so you should be. Most companies dont deserve the money they get from consumers. Its seems many consumers like yourself are realising this. Bravo.
I too was in the same situation as you and hestiant to take the great leap but no longer. I purchased the 17' PB Alubook middle of last year and was waiting patiently for a PB G5 but alas not to be. I dont regret the decision one bit. Simply, it has been the best computer EXPERIENCE I have had. In many instances it reminded me of how computing used to be for me when I was younger...fun! (And Im not talking about games).
I realise the PB is underpowered but in opposition to that, I realise that the form factor/weight/design of the Powerbook are part of the allure. Not to mention the software etc, that others have mentioned. Have I had problems? Sure, but they were inherently easier to figure out than if I was using a PC.
My point is that, Apple could put a G5 in a powerbook now but it would quickly become the 4 inch thick PowerBrick. They wont compromise. They'll wait for the right technology to come along and use it in a way that others can only copy. That is a mindset that rarely exists thesedays and because of that I have become more discerning about things I buy. Its more than a chunk of metal and plastic. Its a statement that you are tired of mediocrity and so you should be. Most companies dont deserve the money they get from consumers. Its seems many consumers like yourself are realising this. Bravo.
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/stats/imac_333.html
Thats the mac I'm using right now. My PC's lasted me only maybe about 5 months. Except my AMD Duron 1.10 GHz (64KB L1, 192KB L2 cache), because it's the fastest one (besides the stupid 2.5 GHz Celeron - which is slow due to 32KB L1 and 128KB L2 Cache). Now I'm on this iMac G3 333 MHz, and it has... read siggy... and this computer came out October 5, 1999 - Over 6 years ago. Now thats awesome, and it runs Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. just fine (except that I don't have those now), but on my Powerbook (that I had) G3, 233MHz, 288MB RAM, 30GB HDD - http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g3/stats/powerbook_g3_233.html - , I had Photoshop on it, it ran very well, on my brothers celeron (yes we're talking about CS) it runs so frikken slow, I get pizzed at it.
Now what does that tell you about Macs? It tells me that they are fast, will be fast, and are the best computers out there if you can buy one, have it for 6 years (I've only had this iMac for 2 weeks... maybe 3) and still use it today, thats pretty good technology and it must be doing something right. I don't want to have to buy a PC every 6 months just to get the best deal and for things to actually run, whereas with this iMac I'm set for a few years till I will actually need that power running behind the scenes.
Thats the mac I'm using right now. My PC's lasted me only maybe about 5 months. Except my AMD Duron 1.10 GHz (64KB L1, 192KB L2 cache), because it's the fastest one (besides the stupid 2.5 GHz Celeron - which is slow due to 32KB L1 and 128KB L2 Cache). Now I'm on this iMac G3 333 MHz, and it has... read siggy... and this computer came out October 5, 1999 - Over 6 years ago. Now thats awesome, and it runs Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. just fine (except that I don't have those now), but on my Powerbook (that I had) G3, 233MHz, 288MB RAM, 30GB HDD - http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g3/stats/powerbook_g3_233.html - , I had Photoshop on it, it ran very well, on my brothers celeron (yes we're talking about CS) it runs so frikken slow, I get pizzed at it.
Now what does that tell you about Macs? It tells me that they are fast, will be fast, and are the best computers out there if you can buy one, have it for 6 years (I've only had this iMac for 2 weeks... maybe 3) and still use it today, thats pretty good technology and it must be doing something right. I don't want to have to buy a PC every 6 months just to get the best deal and for things to actually run, whereas with this iMac I'm set for a few years till I will actually need that power running behind the scenes.
Thanks leftnut,
That is exactly how I feel about purchasing any high end product, especially computers. For the thousands of dollars they ask and the hundreds of millions of dollars that go into R&D we should be able to expect more. That is what I feel the problem with MS is, they have the market basically locked up with almost no competition so what we get are so-so products with little ingenuity. Its sad because with the resources MS has to work with they could be putting out amazing products.
That is exactly how I feel about purchasing any high end product, especially computers. For the thousands of dollars they ask and the hundreds of millions of dollars that go into R&D we should be able to expect more. That is what I feel the problem with MS is, they have the market basically locked up with almost no competition so what we get are so-so products with little ingenuity. Its sad because with the resources MS has to work with they could be putting out amazing products.
I can't say I agree with you. Flash sites absolutely reek havoc on my iBook, making even scrolling down the page a chore. Obviously on non-Flash sites, it is just fine. I am using Camino, so maybe it is the way Camino handles Flash? But i doubt it. I did open the CPU monitor, expectantly finding that my CPU is smacking the 80-90% barrier repeatedly.
On my desktop, it barely hits 20-25%, so there is one obvious difference, in something as "light" as web-surfing. Yes, I could just block Flash altogether, but many sites are now using this on major portions of their sites as well...so not exactly the best solution.
On my desktop, it barely hits 20-25%, so there is one obvious difference, in something as "light" as web-surfing. Yes, I could just block Flash altogether, but many sites are now using this on major portions of their sites as well...so not exactly the best solution.
thorshammer88 said:
bad idea. a very bad idea to stop running the updates. if you read stuff about SP2 it states make sure you computer is clean up from spy ware and virus before you install it because some of the stuff came out to defend itself against SP2 and it goal was to damgage the computer and then have you blame M$ for it.
It people like you who made MSblaster so bad. MSblaster was using a secuirty hole that M$ had patch a while before blaster came out. If you computer was keep resanbly upto date it would not be a big deal. It woudl of stayed patch. THat is why now it the defualt setting to windows update is for it to automictly install in the updates and has to be change from there.
Clean up the computer from stuff first then boot into safemode and install it. SP2 is a huge update and it makes XP a heck of a lot better (having it use less system resorces plus tons of updates) SP2 is just a little shy of installing a new os in the amont of stuff it does. most of it is behind the sences stuff and has no baring on the what the end users sees.
Also MS has release several updates in the past few weeks that has to deal with some holes that have been patch. one delt with something in XP pro where some could access you computer remoting and start doing stuff. you would see you mouse moving around on the screen. some people had fun around campus after we got the email on it. mostly I think to mess with people I was one of them who got infect by them having fun. I knew about the update and i just had not finish the install yet. finish it reboot and did not worry about.
In the end do the smart thing and update you computer.
CanadaRAM said:
Very well said. In my case I see no real performance differences with the Adobe CS Suite between my PB 12" and my older Sony desktop with a P4 in it. YMMV.
I have had my PB for just over a year. Never have had to reinstall the OS, unlike my other half's Winbox (two fresh installs in the last year due to malware and the such).
Outside of my being in a panic over postings here about 10.3.6(?) and certain FW drives, what ever I handed the Mac just seemed to work. Sure there are hicups along the way.
I did have issues with Epson and their 2200 printer. But it is a result of two different drivers with different capabilities. But guess what? The Mac will allow for both, and I get to choose which one will fit my needs.
What isn't mentioned much is productivity without the cost. In my previous position with my company I could generate a PDF from the print command and email them what they wanted. Guess what, they would need Acrobat to do the same thing.
In the end the Mac just works.
Chip NoVaMac said:
I'm guessing you haven't used PDF creator? My friend and I used to use Acrobat, but that thing was so full of bloat we went down to just the reader (to read pdfs), and used the PDF creator when we needed to convert our word documents to PDFs (e.g. for resumes or whatever).
Hey time, youve illustrated well what Ive been saying here the whole time. Why is XP full of these security holes to begin with. If MS was truly concerned about making a good OS they could have put the time and money into doing it right to begin with. Can you give me a good reason why after spending nearly $3000 dollars on this computer I should have to deal with closing up security holes?
Also time for your edification its not people like me who are the problem, its corporations like MS who push inept software and tell us to shove it because we have little choice, (with the exception of abandoning PC's all together and switching to Apple) I feel like I have no option except doing exactly that
Also time for your edification its not people like me who are the problem, its corporations like MS who push inept software and tell us to shove it because we have little choice, (with the exception of abandoning PC's all together and switching to Apple) I feel like I have no option except doing exactly that
thorshammer88 said:
And in that case the Mac wins hands down IMO.
I have been able to spend more time exploring other software options to make my computer life easier since moving to the Mac. No longer do I have to hunt down bad DLL's. Go in to the hardware manager to find what piece of hardware is causing a conflict. Why a card that worked yesterday, is not working today.
EvilCrabMonkey said:
Either you're just fishing for arguments or you really have not much experience with OSX.
If you like the taskbar that much it's basically the same as the dock (only that the app icons you put there stay after closing). Click on the app icon and it switches to that app. There you go.
As for the start menu... if you don't like to put a lot of icons in your dock (I can understand that) just put the app folder right next to your trash. Click on it with the right mouse button, voila you have a start menu like app folder...
And saying that you like to look at unrefined graphics and crude operating systems... why don't you use 3.1? Is that crude enough for you?
LeeTom said:
Again points very well said.
In regards to iTunes. There are AppleScripts that allow a user to select duplicate or missing titles and and delete them in the Mac environment. I have yet to hear of anything like this for the Windows environment.