Why is everybody so obsessed with RAM?

[ArkSingularity]

I am new to macos, how does macos handle ram differently than other systems? I have definitely noticed that my MBA m1 does not cramble when ram gets full and starts using swap memory, while my windows laptop would turn unusable, which I suspect is due to the speed of SSD and maybe more effective use of swap memory. As my other computer is definitely lower spec, I am unsure if it is just hardware or mostly macos swapping memory more efficiently than windows (eg putting inactive RAM to SSD while windows just having active tasks writing on SSD or sth). Is there any other part where memory is managed better/differently by macos?

I know that Apple started doing hardware RAM compression in the A14/M1. There is still going to be a latency penalty for this (especially when dealing with 16KB pages), but it's going to be a lot less than having to deal with context switches to the kernel to decompress them in software.

Other than this, I've been largely curious about this as well. My 8GB Mac handles large workloads very well, perhaps much better than it should. This thing remains highly responsive even when 5GB+ of swap is in use.

 

[jdb8167]

So it's as I originally said: Windows is no more of a heavy weight than macOS. We're right back where we started.

Are you saying that Windows PC OEMs don't add additional, unrequested software to their distributions? Maybe not for enterprise users but that is definitely not the case for a notebook you buy at BestBuy.

 

[ArkSingularity]

Are you saying that Windows PC OEMs don't add additional, unrequested software to their distributions? Maybe not for enterprise users but that is definitely not the case for a notebook you buy at BestBuy.

That, in addition to unexplained bloat that just builds up over time. I've never owned a Windows computer that didn't slow down substantially after a year or so of use, even if I was very careful to remove software I didn't use and to do system maintenance/cleanup steps regularly. I've never really understood why that happens on Windows, but I've never experienced this on a Mac or Linux system. They remain fast years after install.

 

[m1maverick]

Are you saying that Windows PC OEMs don't add additional, unrequested software to their distributions? Maybe not for enterprise users but that is definitely not the case for a notebook you buy at BestBuy.

I am saying no such thing nor have I implied as much.

 

[m1maverick]

That, in addition to unexplained bloat that just builds up over time. I've never owned a Windows computer that didn't slow down substantially after a year or so of use, even if I was very careful to remove software I didn't use and to do system maintenance/cleanup steps regularly. I've never really understood why that happens on Windows, but I've never experienced this on a Mac or Linux system. They remain fast years after install.

It doesn't. This is a talking point from Mac advocates.

 

[jdb8167]

I am saying no such thing nor have I implied as much.

I'm confused then.

If you pull out all the bloatware it’s about the same as macOS. I think the RAM usage of my Windows PC for gaming is about the same as my Mac but I will have to check. I know it’s within 1 GB. The problem is taking most of that bloatware out is beyond the skill level of most users so it just stays running. If you take a Windows PC and a Mac comparing them right out of the box the Mac is going to use much less RAM just because of how is configured.

Isn't this what you were responding to? Most consumer notebooks will have crapware/bloatware pre-installed. Most users don't know how to uninstall it. It runs in the background eating memory and using CPU. That's the configuration issue that @russell_314 was referring to.

I don't know what your answer means if it isn't in that context. If you get a clean install of Windows 11 then the only extra bloat is the telemetry. That's probably not meaningful in context of memory and probably negligible in for CPU (it still sucks for privacy) but most third-party crapware isn't nearly as nice.

 

[m1maverick]

I'm confused then.

Isn't this what you were responding to? Most consumer notebooks will have crapware/bloatware pre-installed. Most users don't know how to uninstall it. It runs in the background eating memory and using CPU. That's the configuration issue that @russell_314 was referring to.

I don't know what your answer means if it isn't in that context. If you get a clean install of Windows 11 then the only extra bloat is the telemetry. That's probably not meaningful in context of memory and probably negligible in for CPU (it still sucks for privacy) but most third-party crapware isn't nearly as nice.

My answer means that I am not "...saying that Windows PC OEMs don't add additional, unrequested software to their distributions?" nor did I imply as much. Not sure how much clearer I can say it.

 

[jdb8167]

My answer means that I am not "...saying that Windows PC OEMs don't add additional, unrequested software to their distributions?" nor did I imply as much. Not sure how much clearer I can say it.

You could answer the question. Does third-party crapware for the average Windows install cause more RAM to be used than on an average macOS installation? @russell_314 takes an uncontroversial position that it depends on the configuration. Part of that configuration is what crapware is pre-installed. People shouldn't buy Windows PCs with crapware but crapware makes the PC cheaper so they do. That's just reality.

 

[m1maverick]

You could answer the question. Does third-party crapware for the average Windows install cause more RAM to be used than on an average macOS installation? @russell_314 takes an uncontroversial position that it depends on the configuration. Part of that configuration is what crapware is pre-installed. People shouldn't buy Windows PCs with crapware but crapware makes the PC cheaper so they do. That's just reality.

The question and your subsequent commentary are irrelevant to my statement.

 

[DHagan4755]

That, in addition to unexplained bloat that just builds up over time. I've never owned a Windows computer that didn't slow down substantially after a year or so of use, even if I was very careful to remove software I didn't use and to do system maintenance/cleanup steps regularly. I've never really understood why that happens on Windows, but I've never experienced this on a Mac or Linux system. They remain fast years after install.

I've experienced this. I setup up Windows PCs at work (from Windows 95 through to Windows 10). Most users didn't do a lot of heavy lifting on them per sé; i.e. they weren't doing demanding tasks. The user would check their email, use the Internet for sites required by their job, and Office suite as a non-admin user. They weren't going to sketchy places or downloading apps. Yet Windows would slow down over time. They got their Windows updates & virus definition updates but the PC started to dog after awhile. Since I spec'd the PCs, they had more than sufficient memory, hard drives, and decent chipsets. The Mac users on the other hand were good for screwing things up if they were the admins of the computer, but it was more nuisance crap they either inadvertently installed (malware) or upgrading the operating system on day 1 of its release, experiencing software incompatibilities with the newly installed OS.

 

[m1maverick]

I've experienced this. I setup up Windows PCs at work (from Windows 95 through to Windows 10). Most users didn't do a lot of heavy lifting on them per sé; i.e. they weren't doing demanding tasks. The user would check their email, use the Internet for sites required by their job, and Office suite as a non-admin user. They weren't going to sketchy places or downloading apps. Yet Windows would slow down over time. They got their Windows updates & virus definition updates but the PC started to dog after awhile. Since I spec'd the PCs, they had more than sufficient memory, hard drives, and decent chipsets. The Mac users on the other hand were good for screwing things up if they were the admins of the computer, but it was more nuisance crap they either inadvertently installed (malware) or upgrading the operating system on day 1 of its release, experiencing software incompatibilities with the newly installed OS.

Then you did something wrong when you set them up. Windows doesn't just slow down over time. Either you set it up incorrectly or they're doing things to it which you're not aware of.

 

[DHagan4755]

Then you did something wrong when you set them up.

Nope.

 

[m1maverick]

Nope.

Yep.

 

[russell_314]

So it's as I originally said: Windows is no more of a heavy weight than macOS. We're right back where we started.

Basically yes but maybe you missed part of my comment. You can disable all the unnecessary Microsoft crap but I don't think most end users even know they should much less how to do it. Even still most basic users get by with 4 GB of RAM. I don't even remember when 4 GB was an option on a Mac but it had to be a few years ago.

This is the bloatware I’m referring to.

What do I consider bloatware? Well any non Microsoft app or program that the PC manufacturer was paid to include. That’s a start then I’d add any M$ telemetry applications running in the background. If you’ve ever purchased a Windows PC in the last decade or maybe longer you know what I’m talking about

I agree with you that the base OS is very similar when it comes to the amount of RAM used. I need to check them side by side but I think in an ideal state Windows 10 might use less RAM. I can't verify that because I sold my iMac waiting on my Air so maybe it's something I will look at. Either way they are pretty close.

My point was that if you compare a Windows laptop with a MacBook in the factory out of the box configuration the Windows laptop will be more of a RAM hog. Of course people cry about RAM but then use Google Chrome.

 

[m1maverick]

Basically yes but maybe you missed part of my comment. You can disable all the unnecessary Microsoft crap but I don't think most end users even know they should much less how to do it. Even still most basic users get by with 4 GB of RAM. I don't even remember when 4 GB was an option on a Mac but it had to be a few years ago.

I've read all of your comments and, aside from some reference to nebulous "...M$ telemetry applications...", all I see are references to "...non Microsoft app or program...". I asked about Windows bloatware, not "...non Microsoft app or program...". I'm still waiting for specific examples of Windows bloatware.

 

[jav6454]

I have worked to fix many Windows PCs and laptops. 4 GB of RAM is terrible. Everything is VERY slow and unresponsive.

Edited to add: I have both an M1 MBA with 16GB RAM (After selling my M1 MBA with 8GB RAM) and a Gaming PC with 16GB RAM. I had a SP7 with 8GB RAM. I simply don't understand why anyone in this day and age with a decent workload would not get 16GB of RAM. It isn't proportionally that much more and it is hard to do later. Even on the windows machines, most people don't know how to physically upgrade their ram.

Look, most probably can get by with 8, but why limit yourself that way?

I agree Windows runs terrible at anything 4GB or less. However, that's the minimum requirement. That said, my advice for anyone purchasing a Mac is always buy the most memory your budget allows.

 

[russell_314]

I've read all of your comments and, aside from some reference to nebulous "...M$ telemetry applications...", all I see are references to "...non Microsoft app or program...". I asked about Windows bloatware, not "...non Microsoft app or program...". I'm still waiting for specific examples of Windows bloatware.

Oh my bad Microsoft would never include any type of unnecessary bloatware in Windows. I’m not sure what I was thinking. In fact I think I’m going to reinstall it on my gaming PC without any tweaks just so I can get the optimum performance as Microsoft intended 😀

 

[camotwen]

That, in addition to unexplained bloat that just builds up over time. I've never owned a Windows computer that didn't slow down substantially after a year or so of use, even if I was very careful to remove software I didn't use and to do system maintenance/cleanup steps regularly. I've never really understood why that happens on Windows, but I've never experienced this on a Mac or Linux system. They remain fast years after install.

Fwiw we have some iMacs at work that start getting really really slow after some years. No obvious reason for that. Reinstalling everything etc did not help. Could be a particular batch or sth.

 

[StoneJack]

Fwiw we have some iMacs at work that start getting really really slow after some years. No obvious reason for that. Reinstalling everything etc did not help. Could be a particular batch or sth.

hard drives?

 

[m1maverick]

Oh my bad Microsoft would never include any type of unnecessary bloatware in Windows. I’m not sure what I was thinking. In fact I think I’m going to reinstall it on my gaming PC without any tweaks just so I can get the optimum performance as Microsoft intended 😀

Yes, your bad. I asked you to provide example of Windows bloatware and you have yet to provide it. How about dispensing with the snarky responses and just providing the information requested?

 

[ArkSingularity]

Yes, your bad. I asked you to provide example of Windows bloatware and you have yet to provide it. How about dispensing with the snarky responses and just providing the information requested?

- Literal ads in the start menu, file browser, and other such places on the OS
- Candy crush force installing itself over and over again, adding itself to the start menu, launching random things in the background and requiring you to disable it.
- Just about every app has location and background execution stuff enabled by default, forcing you to go in one by one and disable them (Windows 10 made this easier, Windows 11 actually made this worse).
- Telemetry, and TONS of it. Yes, there is a privacy dashboard, but it takes about 45 minutes to go through the whole thing disabling things, and even still, Windows Update randomly overwrites some of those settings "on accident". You literally have to use third party scripts from Github to actually clear it all out.
- Constant anti-malware service executables using CPU and RAM resources in the background (a necessary evil on Windows where malware is still very prevalent).
- Being unable to change your default web browser away from Edge, html files will still load in Edge if you double click on them.
- Multiple control panels with different UIs. Some apps have a Windows-8 look and feel, others have a Windows 10 look and feel. Total lack of consistency all over the place.
- Windows updates that constantly break things, use resources "preparing" them in the background, and randomly restart your computer at inconvenient times.
- Cortana forcing itself all over the place, including the Windows installer where it can't be disabled until post-install. Forced microsoft accounts, onedrive making itself difficult to disable, etc.
- And yes, MANY do report Windows PCs slowing down over time and requiring Windows re-installs. I'm glad you report that this hasn't happened to you, but I'm a software developer who takes very good care of my computers and I've experienced this multiple times. I've never had this issue on Linux or Mac.

I'm not trying to bash Windows. I loved Windows 7 (it was pretty much the perfect OS), and Windows 10 was excellent when it was first released. In the years since, it's gone downhill. That's not to say Microsoft can't recover (they recovered nicely from the Windows Vista blunder), but as it stands now, it remains too much of a hassle for me to worry about when Linux and Mac OS both are good options.

 

[m1maverick]

- Literal ads in the start menu, file browser, and other such places on the OS
- Candy crush force installing itself over and over again, adding itself to the start menu, launching random things in the background and requiring you to disable it.
- Just about every app has location and background execution stuff enabled by default, forcing you to go in one by one and disable them (Windows 10 made this easier, Windows 11 actually made this worse).
- Telemetry, and TONS of it. Yes, there is a privacy dashboard, but it takes about 45 minutes to go through the whole thing disabling things, and even still, Windows Update randomly overwrites some of those settings "on accident". You literally have to use third party scripts from Github to actually clear it all out.
- Constant anti-malware service executables using CPU and RAM resources in the background (a necessary evil on Windows where malware is still very prevalent).
- Being unable to change your default web browser away from Edge, html files will still load in Edge if you double click on them.
- Multiple control panels with different UIs. Some apps have a Windows-8 look and feel, others have a Windows 10 look and feel. Total lack of consistency all over the place.
- Windows updates that constantly break things, use resources "preparing" them in the background, and randomly restart your computer at inconvenient times.
- Cortana forcing itself all over the place, including the Windows installer where it can't be disabled until post-install. Forced microsoft accounts, onedrive making itself difficult to disable, etc.
- And yes, MANY do report Windows PCs slowing down over time and requiring Windows re-installs. I'm glad you report that this hasn't happened to you, but I'm a software developer who takes very good care of my computers and I've experienced this multiple times. I've never had this issue on Linux or Mac.

I'm not trying to bash Windows. I loved Windows 7 (it was pretty much the perfect OS), and Windows 10 was excellent when it was first released. In the years since, it's gone downhill. That's not to say Microsoft can't recover (they recovered nicely from the Windows Vista blunder), but as it stands now, it remains too much of a hassle for me to worry about when Linux and Mac OS both are good options.

Can you please define which of these points you consider to be examples of Windows bloatware?

 

[ArkSingularity]

Can you please define which of these points you consider to be examples of Windows bloatware?

All of these are precise examples my friend. I'm not interested in getting into a flame war over the definitions of words.

 

[m1maverick]

All of these are precise examples my friend. I'm not interested in getting into a flame war over the definitions of words.

No, all of them are not. As an example, how is the following an example of Windows bloatware?

- Multiple control panels with different UIs. Some apps have a Windows-8 look and feel, others have a Windows 10 look and feel. Total lack of consistency all over the place.​

 

[sgtaylor5]

No, all of them are not. As an example, how is the following an example of Windows bloatware?

- Multiple control panels with different UIs. Some apps have a Windows-8 look and feel, others have a Windows 10 look and feel. Total lack of consistency all over the place.​

There should be one settings app. Not two. The whole situation is a victim of Microsoft's necessity to have backwards compatibility. I think that's the major reason why Windows slows down. They just can't. clean. everything. up. It would break far too many enterprise workflows.