Why is everything so buggy?

[thubsch]

...my Mac's been on for 2 months+ with no lockups before, and is basically only restarted for updates to the OS.

For what it's worth: I've been using Macs well-nigh exclusively, and have maintained, on the average, some 15-20 Macs over the past 18 years, in a university environment. Almost all the problems I ever had to deal with were user-induced. Of course, one could argue that this just means that the students were able to vandalize the software sooner than the innate glitches had a chance of showing up. OS X is a HUGE increase in this respect, and perhaps it is not an irrelevant bit of statistics that my OS X Server has been restarted only for updates, installations and backup... since version 10.0.0 was new.

 

[BGil]

I have no problem with you reporting problems with Mac OS X. I have occasional problems with it myself. Nothing that humans have created is perfect, and OS X is no exception. I find OS X to be the least troublesome OS of any I've tried. However, I had to chuckle a little when you implied that Linux is relatively bug-free. I've been casually using Linux for a few years. This past weekend, I decided to install Fedora Core 4. I still don't have it working 100% right.

Isn't Fedora the "test bed" for Red Hat? And Fedora sucks anyway. Try using something less cutting-edge like Debian, FreeBSD, or OpenBSD and you should see a big difference. Even SUSE is more stable.

 

[BGil]

my favorite thing about my g5 is that the apps crash rarely and gui only once... in two years... one quick software update and everything runs smooth again.

if you want to throw stones at an os, start with WinME and MCE....

Yeah, start with throwing stones at an OS that's been superceded by Windows 2000, Windows XP, and Windows Server 2003 and doesn't even use a kernel that's in production anymore. Why not add in System 7 and OS 9 while you're at it.

MY MCE is a file server, NAT firewall, and a render node for Vegas and other apps yet it hasn't crashed or frozen once in the year or so it's been running. In fact, it's hasn't even been restarted since I installed SP2/MCE2005 over a year ago.

 

[ToastyX]

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned Linux because people keep pointing that out, but stuff like downloading a file or doing a DNS lookup shouldn't be able to cause the system to stop responding on a UNIX-based system and isn't even possible in Windows. Considering Windows has other serious problems, I didn't want to go there. At least with Windows, people realize there's problems. With Macs, I seem to have to go out of my way to show there's problems before people understand what I mean.

I can understand some people's frustration with Linux, especially with distributions like Mandrake/Mandriva and Fedora Core that try to do everything for you but screw it up to the point where you end up having to fix it yourself and do everything manually anyway, and those distributions tend to have heavily modified kernels and packages that cause additional problems. That's why I used Slackware, which left me to do the screwing up. Once I learned how to set things up, there were relatively few problems. Yes, some things can be a pain, which is why I eventually decided to get a Mac, but considering how great everyone says Macs are, I didn't expect to run into so many problems, especially the ones that shouldn't be possible on a UNIX-based system.

Here are some more examples of little bugs and glitches.

The mouse cursor often stays as the wrong cursor. For instance, if I mouse over a link, the cursor changes into a hand, but sometimes it stays as a hand when I'm no longer over a link. The problem is also noted here: http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?14@12.NK0UaaTyRPC.2@.68b8ac65

As Kevin Hoctor noted, the cursor sticks in its last form until there is a specific setting in a window for it to change to another cursor. It has nothing to do with the mouse driver or USB Overdrive though, as I've seen it happen even on a fresh install. As Michael Goldman noted, it happens in various applications at various times.

It happens quite often for me, but I haven't been able to figure out many ways to reproduce it. One way to reproduce it is to go into Dashboard and add a calendar widget if you don't have one already. Then move the mouse to the top of the calendar widget. When the cursor changes into a hand, move the mouse above the calendar widget and it will stay as a hand until something causes it to change again.

Another way to reproduce it is to open a Terminal window, then choose "About This Mac" from the Apple menu. Right when you choose it, quickly move the mouse to the Terminal window. You only have a split second to do this. If you pull it off, the mouse cursor will stay as an I-beam until something causes it to change again.

Here's another problem. Try dragging a non-Finder window to the bottom of the screen so that the top of the window is below the top of the dock and hold it there for a second without letting go of the mouse button. Then drag it back up and let go of the mouse button as you're dragging. The window will jump to the bottom of the screen. I figured this one out when I was trying out various wallpapers and wanted to move the window out of the way for a second so I could see it.

Another problem is the Flurry screen saver exhibits a nasty tearing effect that slowly travels up or down the screen. Other people have confirmed this problem, so I know it's not just my computer. The thing is, the same screen saver works fine with the same monitor on my Linux PC. Why is it messed up on Mac?

Like I said, there's tons of little bugs and glitches all over the place. Even while typing this message, I ran into glitches in Safari. I'll have to figure out how to reproduce them.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Here's another problem. Try dragging a non-Finder window to the bottom of the screen so that the top of the window is below the top of the dock and hold it there for a second without letting go of the mouse button. Then drag it back up and let go of the mouse button as you're dragging. The window will jump to the bottom of the screen.

Ok, I wasn't really sure until this comment: I smell a troll.

 

[gekko513]

Ok, I wasn't really sure until this comment: I smell a troll.

I was able to reproduce that, it was actually kind of cool. I'm not sure if I smell a troll. It's more like some kind of compulsive perfectionalism.

 

[Doctor Q]

It's more like some kind of compulsive perfectionalism.

Compulsive perfectionalism is my guiding principle in life. I don't like anything to be imperfect in an interface, even though I know that little issues like this are inevitable.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

When a newbie comes in and makes an effort to create bugs and then calling them major problems, I call troll, even if most of the bugs are real...

The OP has 6 posts, all in this thread, all saying that Mac OS X is full of problems. Now if that isn't trolling...

 

[solvs]

Perhaps if ToastyX worded things a little differently, we might be more helpful and less suspicious. You see, we are a defensive lot. After years of being picked on by people who no nothing about us, that tends to happen. Especially considering how many of us must suffer through Windows as well. Often on a daily basis. No OS is perfect, though some have come pretty close, and there are a lot of bugs in OS X. The latest version is only .2 of 10.4, if that tells you anything. Some of these can be fixed, some you should report to Apple, even if it already has been reported. They may be fixing it, but it could take awhile, and someone such as yourself could help.

Your problems, though annoying, are a little nitpicky. Not saying they aren't bugs, but maybe someone can help you with some. For others, you have no choice but to suffer. (j/k)

 

[jsalzer]

OK, I'll admit it

Just so the OP knows he's not crazy, I'll take myself out of Reality Distortion Mode long enough to make some admissions. Yes, I worship at Steve's altar. Yes, I've owned only Macs since 1993.

And, yes, my OSX iMacG5 17" crashes more often than my two Wintel machines at work. (Of course, my Pismo is the most stable, but that's not the point.)

Sometimes it's a hardware issue (I run 50/50 at getting my screen to come back on after the computer has been in sleep mode), but there are times when one app will go, or one app will go and take everything else with it (wasn't that not supposed to happen any more?), or the little things like the Safari scrollbar bug. But, they are there and they do show up, in my personal case, much more often than on my XP machines.

Now, that said, why do I pretend my Mac never crashes? I would never own anything else. I love my Macs, and I'd rather put up with their bugs than a bugless Windows system, and I'm surrounded by Wintel fans who would pounce on any potential flaw I let them see in a Mac or OSX. And so I maintain the company line. OSX is free of bugs.

Right????

 

[huck500]

Now, that said, why do I pretend my Mac never crashes? I would never own anything else. I love my Macs, and I'd rather put up with their bugs than a bugless Windows system, and I'm surrounded by Wintel fans who would pounce on any potential flaw I let them see in a Mac or OSX. And so I maintain the company line. OSX is free of bugs.

Right????

I don't have to pretend that my mac never crashes....it never has. Lots of apps have crashed, but they've never taken down the OS, not on my school iBook, not on my powerbook, not on my gooseneck iMac, not on my wife's powerbook, not on my school eMac.

The OPs complaints are valid, but it would be more helpful to send them to Apple...this is the kind of detail and precision that they need to fix stuff. I really don't care that my cursor sticks if I open About This Mac and then quickly run it over Terminal.

Another way to reproduce it is to open a Terminal window, then choose "About This Mac" from the Apple menu. Right when you choose it, quickly move the mouse to the Terminal window. You only have a split second to do this. If you pull it off , the mouse cursor will stay as an I-beam until something causes it to change again.

This sounds like language you'd see in a videogame walkthrough to me...it just struck me as funny.

 

[jsalzer]

Wow - good luck in your genes!

I don't have to pretend that my mac never crashes....it never has. Lots of apps have crashed, but they've never taken down the OS, not on my school iBook, not on my powerbook, not on my gooseneck iMac, not on my wife's powerbook, not on my school eMac.

Not one bad egg in the batch? Wow! My Pismo's like that. Other than a failing hard drive every couple of years, it's flawless. The iMacG5, alas, has not been so kind. Today it was Pages that took the system down. (Sniffle.)

 

[ingenious]

Hmmm, weird...because you can't keep things arraged by...whatever...and tell it to rearrange, which I don't have. And now I'm at work and can't try it again.

If only Apple would dump the dock and the Windows-like browser and go back to a spatial finder that remembers your settings and a customizable Apple menu...oh, and a network browser that works.

Yea, I was just thinking today that maybe OS X should have more of a Start-type menu for programs and documents instead of just the finder windows... but really the finder windows are great... and the start menu in Windows is messy. Actually, I think that the Recent Items menu works perfectly for all "start menu" intents and purposes.

Also, what OS X version are you using? I've like 1 problem in 2-3 months of tiger in network browsing.


Also, anyone know if the iMovie update fixes the crashing or why iMovie brought down my entire system? I had DVD player open and iMovie and iMovie stalled and my whole system went under! How in the world does that happen in a protected memory environment!?!

 

[ingenious]

Ok, I wasn't really sure until this comment: I smell a troll.

I don't think he's a troll... if you haven't used OS X a bunch you wouldn't understand this behavior. I guess it does this because you've let go of the window after putting it down there. If you let go. Otherwise, someone else will have to answer 'cause I'm out of ideas...

 

[mduser63]

I've noticed the cursor bug before, as well as the window-to-the-bottom bug. I agree that they're bugs. The cursor one especially bugs me sometimes. Still, I have to say, they're quite minor, and the only thing to do about them is to report them to Apple. If Panther is any indication, there will be quite a difference between 10.4.2 and 10.4.9 (or whatever we get up to before Leopard comes out). 10.4.3 alone is reported to contain 400+ bug fixes.

 

[dejo]

Yea, I was just thinking today that maybe OS X should have more of a Start-type menu for programs and documents instead of just the finder windows... but really the finder windows are great... and the start menu in Windows is messy. Actually, I think that the Recent Items menu works perfectly for all "start menu" intents and purposes.

And you do have the Applications folder in your dock, right?

 

[thubsch]

Try dragging a non-Finder window to the bottom of the screen so that the top of the window is below the top of the dock and hold it there for a second without letting go of the mouse button. Then drag it back up and let go of the mouse button as you're dragging. The window will jump to the bottom of the screen. I figured this one out when I was trying out various wallpapers and wanted to move the window out of the way for a second so I could see it.

Well, what the heck, I tried this. Of course, I first had to unhide the Dock. Then, I dragged the Safari window to the bottom of the screen so its top was below the top of the Dock, and then -without ever releasing the mouse- dragged it back to the top. And, surely, it stayed in place, but got shortened from below, so that the bottom of the Safari screen is just above the top of the Dock. Oh, that's right, I remembered: this is exactly why I hide the Dock.

So, I tried it a few more times, "dropping" it while returning from the bottom at various places. Sure enough, if the "dropping" happened reasonably quickly after starting to lift it back up, it did go back to the bottom, where I had been holding it for "1-Mississippi, 2-Mississippi...". But if I drag it slowly, perhaps even meandering a bit before releasing it, Mac OS X just leaves it where I release it. Can anyone reproduce this dependence on the "intentionally releasing" vs. "untintentionally dropping"?

Because if yes, this must be one of the "Easter Eggs" (old Mac hands know what I mean), and better: Mac OS X is trying to understand what you are doing as you are doing it, and is then trying its own AI best to help you along the way. For, when I "drop" the file soon after I started moving it, it puts it back roughly where it used to be, for the few seconds that it was stationary; it's just trying to undo what to its AI appears to be an error on my part. In turn, when I move it about more deliberately and then release it, Mac OS X figures that this really is where I want it, so it leaves it there. Of course, still two-three centuries before a StarTrek level of AI, it can't (yet) anticipate all users' whims, but it still does pretty well, I'd say.

Oh, and to see the desktop picture (you don't put wallpapers on the desktop; wallpapers are rolls of paper, pasted onto walls with variable degree of skill and entropy increase), you just use Expose's "desktop" feature (which I have set to be invoked when I drag the cursor to the bottom-right corner of the screen). It works.

Finally, poetic hyperbolae are not really adequate outside poetry and entertainment prose. A question such as "Why is everything so buggy" begs to be ignored by all who value their time. Anyone remember "Dragnet"? ..."Just the facts, M'am."

Oh, and please leave the flames for the BBQ.

 

[yenko]

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about here but shouldn't you be using stuff like developer tools or x11 or something rather than using the core OS?

......and then import it into OS X.

I'm so confused.

 

[ToastyX]

When a newbie comes in and makes an effort to create bugs and then calling them major problems, I call troll, even if most of the bugs are real...

The OP has 6 posts, all in this thread, all saying that Mac OS X is full of problems. Now if that isn't trolling...

You are being silly. I don't make an effort to create or find any problems. Those are just some of the many problems I've run into through normal usage. I listed not one, but two cases where buggy services can cause the system to stop responding. Are those not major problems? I called the rest of the problems little bugs and glitches, not major problems.

I didn't register until recently because I haven't had anything to say until now. I've been reading various Mac forums, including this one, for several months, even before I got a Mac. I have a Mac now. As such, I am now a Mac user. I didn't come here to insult Mac users, so don't take anything I say personally. I came here to talk about Macs. In this thread, I'm talking about how buggy everything seems to me. Is that not a valid topic for discussion? I mentioned Linux because that's what I was using before I got a Mac. I'm not here to promote Linux. In fact, Linux can be a pain to deal with sometimes, which is why I got a Mac in the first place. I've been reading other threads, but I haven't had anything to say. Unless I know the solution to a specific problem and nobody else has responded with the solution, I generally don't say much because of situations like this. People like to read between the lines and take things the wrong way, especially when I give my opinions. There also hasn't been much discussion except in the rumor threads.

Mac OS X, or at least Tiger, really is full of problems. I made two points. First, buggy services can cause the system to stop responding. Second, there's tons of little bugs and glitches all over the place. Unlike a troll, I backed up my statements with examples when asked.

I also found this thread while searching: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/145504/

People in that thread are saying exactly what I'm saying, yet nobody is calling them trolls. Where are those people now?

I tried to give examples that were easy to reproduce. Some of the more annoying problems are harder to reproduce.

For instance, Terminal gets sluggish after using it heavily for several days. Clearing the scrollback buffer doesn't make a difference. Closing the window and opening a new one doesn't make a difference. I have to stop what I'm doing, save whatever I'm working on, disconnect from servers, completely quit Terminal, reopen Terminal, reconnect to servers, and resume whatever I was doing. I tried using iTerm instead, but it's quite slow, and apparently, my normal usage causes it to crash often. The only terminal program that isn't slow and doesn't crash is GLterm, but it's an unmaintained shareware program with problems that will never be fixed, such as memory leaks. Still, it's the only terminal program that I can stand using, so I paid the $10 for it.

Another annoying problem is QuickTime Player overcompensates the color correction when displaying H.264 videos. This makes the video appear washed out even though the video itself is fine. The funny thing is only QuickTime Player seems to have this problem. Anything else that uses the QuickTime API doesn't seem to have this problem. The Finder preview doesn't have this problem. RealPlayer doesn't have this problem either.

http://www.toastyx.net/images/parrots.html (not my parrots by the way)

Notice how QuickTime Player displays the MPEG-4 Part 2 video correctly, yet the H.264 video appears lighter in comparison. Notice how RealPlayer displays both of them correctly.

The problem is also noted here: http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?128@912.aEgkape0XFi.1@.68b0651c

Apple keeps touting the benefits of H.264, yet their player doesn't even play H.264 videos correctly. QuickTime 7.0.2 didn't fix the problem. For a platform that's known for video production, such an obvious problem should have been fixed by now.

And you do have the Applications folder in your dock, right?

That reminds me of another minor problem. If you have a folder in your dock with a rather long menu (like the Applications folder in my case) and you right click (or control-click) near the top of the icon, the menu opens and closes quickly.

This is a bug because when you right click (or control-click) near the top of the icon, the bottom of the menu forms underneath the mouse cursor if the menu is long enough, so it thinks you're doing a click and hold instead of a regular click, which means when you finish clicking, it thinks you're done holding and the menu closes. This only happens near the top of the icon.

Still, I have to say, they're quite minor, and the only thing to do about them is to report them to Apple. If Panther is any indication, there will be quite a difference between 10.4.2 and 10.4.9 (or whatever we get up to before Leopard comes out). 10.4.3 alone is reported to contain 400+ bug fixes.

Yes, they are quite minor, but when there's so many of them, they add up in my mind. I really do hope things get better. I'm looking forward to 10.4.3.