Why is High Sierra so horrible?

CrashX

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Original poster
Apr 13, 2012
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My boot up time is a couple of seconds. What Mac and what hard drive are you using?
I have a late 2013, 15" Retina MacBook Pro, sporting 16GB of memory and a 500GB APPLE SSD SM0512F. I wouldn't begin to know how to open her up and make any alterations, so everything's stock from the factory.

Very glad to hear you're not experiencing the same problem. I thought the startup delay was much more widespread? Or is Apple just targeting different machines with different bugs? ;)
 

esk

macrumors member
Sep 26, 2016
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Have you tried a fresh install of high sierra?

You can also test your ssd with the app "BlackMagic Disk Speed Test". It's available for free in the App store.

My speeds are around 1300 write and 2200 read. I have the 2017 imac. I think that apple has updated the ssds since your machine so you should see a little bit slower speeds but nothing dramatic.
 

deepakvrao

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Oct 16, 2011
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You can disagree all you want. The absolute fact is that High Sierra murdered my 2011 MBA and quite a lot of other users with other Macs released in 2011.

The MBA has a very good processor (built on Sandy Bridge architecture), a Samsung SSD (considered the best performing out of all the variants Apple were using at the time) and a lot of RAM.

Under Sierra it was still a perfect machine. High Sierra renders it almost unusable.
Loaded High Sierra on my wife's MBA 2011, and thankfully things are great. Was planning to do the same for my daughters MBA, again 2011, and now this has me wondering.
 

CrashX

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Apr 13, 2012
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Have you tried a fresh install of high sierra?
I ran a fresh install and had the same startup delay. I actually think it was longer than 30 seconds - which is what caused me to be so alarmed. I've been checking the .x updates to see if any of the problems have been worked out - but given I now pay attention to negative reports (having experienced issues myself), it doesn't seem like Apple has fixed much of anything? Just seems like people are encountering more problems?

Meanwhile, on Sierra, my boot up time is back to normal - a couple of seconds.

I tried to run BlackMagic using the mounted dmg method and I'm only getting about 500MB/s read and write.
 

chucker23n1

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Dec 7, 2014
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My experience with the OS was extremely brief. I installed it on my machine, noticed that the startup time had increased at least 30 seconds - which seemed like an eternity given how spoiled I've become with an SSD - so I immediately went back to Sierra.
So, the OS is "so horrible" because you spent an "extremely brief" time on an OS and had long boot times?

You're on a MacBook Pro. Why are you constantly booting it at all, even? Just close the lid and open it again as you need it. I've been using Apple laptops that way since 2002, with uptimes of typically weeks. I reboot as a software update that requires it comes out. I barely ever shut down. Because, really, why?

But even leaving that aside, surely you can find more significant problems in High Sierra than… long boot times?

Stuff like rendering bugs with text aliasing, memory leaks and display glitches in WindowServer, the loss of some third-party external display compatibility, performance degradation in APFS — now those are issues that actually affect people every day.

Do you have any idea WHY the startup time is increased? That's what initially put me off about it, and I've yet to read ANY explanation whatsoever as to why this happens? Just the normal "How DARE you question Apple! I LOVE IT SO MUCH!!! You're just stew-ped and stuffs!"
Given how little information you have provided, no, our magic 8-ball isn't being very helpful.

As for the remainder of the quote, that's a ginormous strawman. There's a lot of nuance between one extreme "it's so horrible" and the other "how dare you question Apple".

I do dare question Apple. I just don't think boot time is that much of an issue.

I think Steve intentionally sabotaged Apple by promoting Cook - seems like something he'd do, right?
You've gone off the deep end.
 

smirking

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Well, now that the OP mentioned it, yeah I am having really bizarrely long boot times on High Sierra and I'm on a fully loaded 2016 tbMBP. My old 2012 MBP has faster boot up times so this isn't a case of planned obsolesence (which I laugh off as mostly fiction).

On the positive side, my system has been more stable under High Sierra than under most of the past OSes and it doesn't crash when I plug it into my 5k monitor as much as it used to. It works better most of the time, but just boots up slow. I'd rather have slow boot up than slow performance so it's not a huge deal. It's just annoying and curious.

I have no proof, but I sense that many of the problems users are having with High Sierra is related to the APFS file system.
I'd put my vote behind Fishrrman's belief that it has something to do with the APFS file system.
 
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CrashX

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But even leaving that aside, surely you can find more significant problems in High Sierra than… long boot times?
The reason I was focusing on that issue is because I assumed it would be a problem shared between all owners of my model. Hopefully then it's not due to my "usage pattern" or whatnot? The machine just went from an almost instantaneous boot with Sierra to over 30 seconds with High Sierra.

I still haven't heard any explanation as to why that would happen?

And I'm not going off the deep end - Tim Cook actually called me up last night and did his whole evil laugh thing... again. It's going on 3 months now, and it's starting to creep me out.
 

PhiLLoW

macrumors 6502
May 31, 2014
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High Sierra works ok now. Not perfect but it feels not faster than Sierra and I don't see any benefits. My main machine is still running Sierra.

I often have to Switch between Windows ( Bootcamp ) and macOS on my Macbook Air while at work. High Sierra & APFS totally broke BootCamp Support. I used to right click the Bootcamp Icon in Windows and set the device to "boot macOS" ( or similiar; I don't know the correct english translation )

Since around half a year this is not possible anymore because Bootcamp can't detect a bootable apfs disk. I have to restart Windows and pray that it recognizes the ALT-press while booting. Unfortunately this only works every three boot-attemps if you're connected to an external Keyboard with a USB hub.

Totally unacceptable. This made the workflow way more complicated.
 

Lioness~

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Apr 26, 2017
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Greed have a tendency to destroy what once was quality. Apple isn't the 1st thing in history.
Note that I said greed, not money in itself.

Haha, haven't thought of Steve's intentions with putting Tim in charge, from that perspective.
Who knows, he might have had destruction thoughts for Apple.

I have changed my habits regarding installing their now-a-days crappy software.
Wait 1 version, at least.
Never thought I would say that after always been installing immediately.
But that's the new Apple. So my habits have changed.
No APFS, until it's mature. Heard enough of horror stories.
 
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OriginalAppleGuy

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Sep 25, 2016
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Not being a tech guru, maybe I give them way too much credit - but why is it that the folks I look up to as gurus haven't bothered to look into the massive delay on startup introduced with High Sierra?
Because the "tech guru's" know that startup delays as you've described are in direct relation to how much porn you view/download on a daily basis.
 

Digitalclips

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Mar 16, 2006
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At least on older machines High Sierra really is horrid. I'm using a MacBook Air 13" 2011 and the worst issue is poor performance right after waking up from sleep, keyboard keys "qwertyuio" sometimes don't work! I thought it's a hardware issue and my MacBook is dying on me but after installing 10.8 Mountain Lion all of these issues disappeared, not to mention 7 second boot up instead of 90. And for what? Literally no advantages of having High Sierra, 99% of new features are useless. Obviously I won't be using 10.8 for security reasons but it's a good way to test whether it's a hardware or software issue. I wonder if newer (2016+) machines are having similar issues? Can anyone confirm? I guess I should upgrade my machine just for security but I highly suspect the same mess exists on new machines.
I'm running High Sierra (in fact the developer betas) on a 2010 MacBook Pro i7 15" which has an SSD and 8 GB RAM and I have seen zero slow down. I'd suggest trying an SSD if you still use a the shipped HDD. If you already have an SSD I'd suspect it requires a reinstallation.
 

smirking

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If you already have an SSD I'd suspect it requires a reinstallation.
I think I'd have someone selectively deactivate all start-up items to see if that cures the slow start up times. I think people are too quick to fall back to the "reinstall everything" trick. I've only done that a couple of times in 20 years. It never fixed my issues for good and was just a waste of a lot of time. Whatever it was that caused the issues reappear because I still need the same software packages.
 

splifingate

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Nov 27, 2013
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You can disagree all you want. The absolute fact is that High Sierra murdered my 2011 MBA and quite a lot of other users with other Macs released in 2011.

The MBA has a very good processor (built on Sandy Bridge architecture), a Samsung SSD (considered the best performing out of all the variants Apple were using at the time) and a lot of RAM.

Under Sierra it was still a perfect machine. High Sierra renders it almost unusable.
I utilise two Intel X56xx cpus, three Samsung SSD's (two AAPL Stock 2,5's, and one pcie-stick-of-gum m.2) with 96GB of ram . . . if you want to talk tech, let's go there; if you want to piss-off-the-bridge . . . well . . . we can go there, also :)

Regards, splifingate
 

simonsi

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Jan 3, 2014
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I can't remember what my boot time on HS is as...I don't boot very often. Its not very long and a reasonable person would be hard-pressed to determine the whole OS is anything like "horrible" based on that one factor alone...and it seems you didn't try it for any period to find anything else out about it.
 

fisherking

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I can't remember what my boot time on HS is as...I don't boot very often. Its not very long and a reasonable person would be hard-pressed to determine the whole OS is anything like "horrible" based on that one factor alone...and it seems you didn't try it for any period to find anything else out about it.
because, as these forums have shown us, whining is so much easier than troubleshooting...
 

Dark Void

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Jun 1, 2011
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I have been running macOS HS for a while now and I have no issues. It's stable in my opinion - even for apps that report they are "not optimized" before installation. Startup time is just fine, maybe 15-20 or so seconds with an older SSD.
 

CrashX

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Apr 13, 2012
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because, as these forums have shown us, whining is so much easier than troubleshooting...
Really now? I'm guessing the Mac OS team must just sit around all day whining then?

Apple is asking me to trust my files to their brand new file system. To welcome me aboard and ease my worries, they randomly introduce a boot delay of over 30 seconds.

But - but - BUT!!! Who CARES!?! Stop WHINING!!!!

What's extremely apparent is that no one KNOWS why. They just accept it, because... Absolutely no explanation necessary? Just STOP WHINING!!!!

It's all good and they're the happy geniuses and I whine too much?

As opposed to the team who has billions to invest in developing the OS, who have CLEARLY done all of the troubleshooting prior to releasing their perfect OS - because, hey, it's been a year? And that's just the way things are properly done when you're a troubleshooting techie who doesn't whine?

Or maybe...? Well, they're just too fascinated, scanning their faces to animate emojis, or customizing their exquisite touchbars? No time for whining with all of that business to get up to, right? The vast improvements speak for themselves?

I think I'd rather be called out for whining - demanding that the folks we've all helped amass billions use SOME of those resources to provide us the very best OS possible. And hey, if that involves a 30 second boot delay, then please explain why, and what wonders are being achieved?

Or, don't - and just provide us the very best OS possible? I'd be very happy with that?
 
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simonsi

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What's extremely apparent is that no one KNOWS why.
Respectfully, including yourself.

You barely know IF it might be "horrible" as you didn't try it in any meaningful way.

No airtime, no opinion (worth listening to). Try it, feedback on what you find "wrong" and you might find some respect for your assessment of "horrible"...

Perhaps re-titled the thread "Why do other people say they find High Sierra Horrible"?

Personally I find HS perfectly usable, at least in my use cases, as S, Y, EC. Yes there may be glitches but on the whole very minor/intermittent. I don't generally get bent out of shape about stuff that really doesn't affect my productivity (and I use it daily for work in an enterprise environment).

YMMV

And if you want to whine, and have Apple listen, then you will need to whine direct to Apple otherwise they <will not> hear it. And a bug report needs to be more than this thread title. No developer can work with that. At. All.
 

CrashX

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Perhaps re-titled the thread "Why do other people say they find High Sierra Horrible"?
I suppose the proper title would be - "Why did Apple introduce a 30 second delay on startup affecting my late 2013 15" Retina MacBook Pro?"

But the more general idea is that Apple doesn't seem to give much of a rat's ass about Apple Computers these days.

Anyway, back to the point that people happy with the OS seem to deem irrelevant -

WHY was the startup delay introduced? Does anyone know?

I find it fascinating that no one has an answer - and it amuses me that no one seems to care.

Well mainly, it just amuses me.

And I'm not reporting a bug. I have a stock late 2013 machine made by Apple. It's simply not possible that they aren't aware that my machine experiences the delay - unless they're even more incompetent than I kid that they are? They made this stupid machine. I'm certain they tested the OS on it.

I just seriously hope (as I related in the initial post) that a Snow Sierra is coming next.

I'd very much like a finely tuned performance OS that can handle security updates for a few years. That would be nice?

But mainly I'm most worried about getting this messed up emoji to properly mimic my facial expression!

Siri, what's up with that?

No, I don't wish to learn more about cats.
 

simonsi

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Jan 3, 2014
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I suppose the proper title would be - "Why did Apple introduce a 30 second delay on startup affecting my late 2013 15" Retina MacBook Pro?"
Nope, there could be 101 reasons for just that - including non-Apple software/daemons and launch agents. If you were remotely interested in finding out then you would have spent 5mins running Etrecheck and doing some proper trouble-shooting instead of arm waving that "something is wrong" and expecting anyone to be able to help you.

Edit: Its not a delay - the OS is doing something, something it likely <isn't> doing on my system but we kind of needed some information to progress that and understand/fix it. But you blew it away.
 

CrashX

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Nope, there could be 101 reasons for just that - including non-Apple software/daemons and launch agents.
So, with a clean install of High Sierra on my late 2013 Retina MacBook Pro - I need to do what exactly?

I don't care what techie crap you guys throw at me - it's a machine made by Apple running an OS made by Apple. If you care to make up an additional 100 reasons, how very creative of you?

I don't need to report any bugs or run an etchasketch.

I just install Apple's OS on Apple's Machine and report that there's suddenly an additional 30 second delay on startup. I'm quite certain Apple is well aware of the issue.

Then, if you like, you can run your etchasketch to prove that Apple has put forth a solid OS, rather than pushing out a beta for you to test.

I'm very happy you're willing to test it out for them. I decided that - due to the weird unexplained startup delay - I wouldn't bother continuing to test out their software for them. Especially given they're introducing a whole new proprietary file system.

But hey - it's probably all due to Matt Daemon starting up my Mac with an etch-a-sketch.

But please, continue contending that it's my fault for running Apple's OS on the machine made by Apple? I feel just horrible about my incessant whining.

So, what next? Or am I better off just animating an emoji with my face? ;) That's where Apple sinks its billion dollar resources these days, right?

And - oh - Sierra runs fine, thank you. No complaints on that front.

I'd be happy to just stick with it if I could continue getting my security updates? Or will Apple just decide that High Sierra is the last pOS my 2013 is allowed to run?

Oh, dear whiny ol' me...
 
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CrashX

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LOL - you are too late. No way of telling what it was now.
No, I'm not. If I cared to waste my time, I could just reinstall High Sierra and the exact same thing would happen. Again and again and again. I already tried it twice.

Good on you for experiencing less problems running a buggy OS! I'm very happy for you.

Meanwhile, Apple has billions of dollars and pretty much infinite resources - too bad they're too busy animating emojis to provide us with a truly stellar OS.

But hey - you're happy. And I'm happy for you.

And I don't really care. I just amuse myself pointing out that you're willing to settle for crap, and defend it for absolutely no reason?

Hey, given you're such a genius - and obviously therefore immensely wealthy, probably have almost as much money as Apple -

Instead of asking me to reproduce the problem, why don't you go buy a late 2013 MacBook Pro exactly like mine and replicate the issue for yourself.

I'll even let you borrow Matt Daemon and my etch-a-sketch? You should have a blast defending the honor of your favorite billion dollar corporation against pathetic whiners like myself, yeah?
 
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bluecoast

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I think it would do Apple - and us - some good if they stopped with the yearly updates and slowed things down a little. Something has obviously come to a head and is not working.

And I think that the Jobs era secret reveal marketing splash (WWDC & September) and the yearly major release schedule has forced them into a crunch that they can’t keep up with.

iOS:
I’d prefer them to just release a version of iOS only for the new fall 2018 hardware and then to roll it out to older phones in time.

And then to gradually roll out feature updates over the year when they’re ready.

That will still keep people excited about their phones. It doesn’t all have to happen at once.

macOS:
We could do with a halt this year and maybe even only see a new major version in the spring of next year. Especially if marzipan is introduced at WWDC.

Then stagger the releases a little more and have them come after iOS. Features thst are cross platform can be rolled out to the same schedule as iOS.

Mac users generally value stability over features. It doesn’t all need to be rushed.