Why is High Sierra so horrible?

Discussion in 'macOS High Sierra (10.13)' started by CrashX, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. CrashX macrumors 6502

    Apr 13, 2012
    My experience with the OS was extremely brief. I installed it on my machine, noticed that the startup time had increased at least 30 seconds - which seemed like an eternity given how spoiled I've become with an SSD - so I immediately went back to Sierra.

    I've never read any ATTEMPT at an explanation as to why even the startup time increased so much? Ars Technica doesn't even explain it - instead they published the glowing review that convinced me to try the update in the first place?

    This all just seems very weird? Sadly, I'm paranoid enough to think:

    "Shhh... don't tell anyone what's actually going on at Apple - they have WAY too much money these days! Seriously, they'll bury us!" ;)

    You'd think that at LEAST Ars Technica would have grumbled at least a WEE tiny little bit - but no? All's well that's not even close to well - even for a completely non-technical person like me?

    Nope - their review screams "All aboard!" It's PERFECT! Awesome improvements under the hood!

    Do what now?

    I guess we can all hope for a Snow Sierra with the next outing - so we can just skip this whole mess? That sadly actually is my only plan? Well, other than fear that Apple will never release another decent OS for their lowly bothersome old computer division?

    I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks?

    And, if anyone would care to explain what's up with the ridiculously long startup time? Why is that?

    If you're running a late 2013 Retina MacBook Pro and NOT experiencing that issue, then I'd be very interested to understand how/why your machine is more special than mine?

    I thought they all came out of the same factory - which has always kinda been the whole point, right? The OS can be FINELY turned for our specific machines, allowing them to operate at their very BEST? Right? No?

    I seriously don't get this at all? I'm not committing heresy by complaining that the startup time is weird at best, right? There's apparently zero explanation for it, so... ?

    But, rather than getting berated for not lovingly towing the line and loving Apple as much as I should -

    Please at least just explain the startup time thingy? I don't get it? Does anyone? It seriously freaks me out that even Ars Technica refuses to even mention it - much less criticize it?

    Thanks for any feedback.
  2. esk macrumors member

    Sep 26, 2016
    From a performance point of view High Sierra is a really bad OS. I had various problems with my 2011 Macbook Pro with High Sierra. But because this is an very old laptop I just blamed the age for it.

    So I have bought a new iMac and I'm experiencing the same issues with this machine. So clearly the Specs aren't the problem, the OS itself is the problem.

    Update 10.13.4 did improve the performance a little bit but it is still bad.

    High Sierra was clearly not finished and got pushed out just because they wanted to continue with their yearly release. I don't understand why not more people are talking about it. You can find a few videos on youtube where they talk about the performance problems.

    Right now Windows 10 has better performance, functionality and yes even stability. I'm still sticking with Apple and Mac OS because I simply like mac OS more than Windows 10 and I'm hoping apple will fix the problems.
  3. flowrider macrumors 603


    Nov 23, 2012
    Your startup time increased by 30 seconds, ½ a minute? So in your opinion HS is horrible images.jpg

    I have no problem with HS! Performance is just fine for me!!!!!!!

  4. CrashX, Apr 24, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018

    CrashX thread starter macrumors 6502

    Apr 13, 2012
    Do you have any idea WHY the startup time is increased? That's what initially put me off about it, and I've yet to read ANY explanation whatsoever as to why this happens? Just the normal "How DARE you question Apple! I LOVE IT SO MUCH!!! You're just stew-ped and stuffs!"

    [But hopefully Apple WILL continue striving to introduce even larger cooler funner emojis in future updates - so you won't be forced to bother uploading them yourself to best express your emojions. I think MacRumors has someone on staff dedicated to just that these days, yeah? :eek:]

    Strange world where Windows is now compared favorably to Mac OS? I'm embarrassed to accept it.

    So - Apple has the much simpler task of ironing out bugs for their OS to operate on the very limited selection of machines they've built that they'll even "allow" to run their latest/greatest proprietary OS -

    But, hey... they're short on money and time these days - what with all of their resources focused on allowing geniuses to... uhm... animate emojis... by scanning their faces? Y'know - important ground-breaking stuff like that?

    Shouldn't we be complaining MORE? I seriously don't get it?

    Don't we deserve only the very BEST? Why be a fan of incompetence? How does that possibly help promote Apple?

    Yeah, Windows is better - but they don't have as many cool emojis and stuffs? Do WHAT!?!

    I liked it better when Windows was the big joke.
  5. Shackss, Apr 25, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018

    Shackss macrumors newbie

    Mar 27, 2015
    Well, Yosemite was a crappy OS too. I witnessed it destroy the performance of my macbook and my rommates too. From the fluid Mavericks to sluggish Yosemite it was a serious difference.
    The yearly release is not working and I'm also starting to second guess their testing team. I also don't understand how 30 seconds boot got passed as fine.

    High Sierra can't even be handled by iMac Pro. I recorded a video in a store when maximising a window to show how it stutters. Posted it on reddit apple and here. You know what I got on reddit? Denial and even post removed, also "people are downvoting you because of your attitude". It's unbelievable, people are just refusing to believe High Sierra is crap in general because they paid a lot of money for their computer.

    You are worrying about boot sequence, I worry about Apple's quality assurance and security. Remember the "root" problem? The PC fanboys laughed with their asses when that happened.

    You want another truth people don't want to accept? If it wasn't for the quality software in the beginning, mac and iphone, people wouldn't throw so much money for these devices at all. Now marketing people are on leadership roles and they are literally sucking money out of the beautiful/original product and this will dry up one day unless things get changed inside Apple. Steve Jobs tells it better than me here.

    I own everything Apple, it's better than Windows, but now I'm on Sierra. I will avoid High Sierra too, but if next macOS comes with same problems I will seriously consider switching to Windows, because I would much rather have some ads displayed in my face but have a computer that lets me do my work.

    And on a last note, I hate when people are posting "High Sierra is fine for me, I just notice some bugs and annoyances while doing my work". Seriously, after you pay so much money for a computer, you are ok with bugs and annoyances? I switch to ****ing Windows and go on a vacation if I want bugs and annoyances.
  6. CrashX, Apr 25, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018

    CrashX thread starter macrumors 6502

    Apr 13, 2012
    I think Steve intentionally sabotaged Apple by promoting Cook - seems like something he'd do, right? Cook ensures Apple wrings as much money as possible off Steve's ideas, then the rot sets in and Apple fades away. Literally, he set it up so that there is no innovation at Apple without him? Stupid ideas are fine - but quash everything else? Just seems very Steve.

    With their infinite resources, it seems there HAS to be a directive to just shut everything down, right? Thousand dollar phones that scan your face? There's absolutely ZERO reason for that "technology" - well, other than laughing at idiots who actually pay the thousand dollars to have their face scanned to... do what exactly? Oh... animate emojis! How brain dead can you get?

    And hey, maybe it's just Moore's Law setting in? Apple just keeps introducing more and more idiocy - touchbars, face scanners, just absolutely retarded "technology"... because the processor race is basically over? They're forced to be more creative in planning the obsolescence now?

    I hate that the battery on my rMBP can't be easily removed - I almost didn't buy it because of their new push toward a much more forced obsolescence. I'm guessing that eventually an OS will be released to force me to buy a new Mac because... Apple needs me to buy a new one? But, for a limited time, I'll be able to get a new battery for $29 or whatever? All planning for the future? A future of morons who just wish to brag about how pretty and sleek and fast the computer is that runs all the ridiculous bloatware intended to slow it down?

    I'd really like to know WHY - just for fun? because I'm just a jerk? because I need to change my attitude? - WHY High Sierra requires an extra 30 seconds to boot? Seriously - WHO KNOWS? Does ANYONE know? Obviously, NO ONE CARES, right? Just me being stupid and silly, right?

    Smart devices. Stupid fans. Good on you, Apple?
  7. smokesletsgo macrumors regular

    Oct 23, 2013
    At least on older machines High Sierra really is horrid. I'm using a MacBook Air 13" 2011 and the worst issue is poor performance right after waking up from sleep, keyboard keys "qwertyuio" sometimes don't work! I thought it's a hardware issue and my MacBook is dying on me but after installing 10.8 Mountain Lion all of these issues disappeared, not to mention 7 second boot up instead of 90. And for what? Literally no advantages of having High Sierra, 99% of new features are useless. Obviously I won't be using 10.8 for security reasons but it's a good way to test whether it's a hardware or software issue. I wonder if newer (2016+) machines are having similar issues? Can anyone confirm? I guess I should upgrade my machine just for security but I highly suspect the same mess exists on new machines.
  8. Steve121178 macrumors 601


    Apr 13, 2010
    Bedfordshire, UK
    I'll just say it. Planned obsolescence.

    I have an old 2011 MBA knocking around and I just use it for mostly testing. Up to Sierra (10.12) it always felt like a brand new machine with flawless performance. High Sierra killed my MBA rendering it almost unusable. High Sierra was supposed to be an optimised version of Sierra, so in theory it should perform at least as good as Sierra did, but it's so bad that there's no way the performance issues are accidental or due to the machines age.

    Even on my late 2012 iMac, High Sierra has various glitches, freezes & unexplainable crashes & reboots. Bizarrely, High Sierra runs perfectly on my late 2013 MacBook Pro.

    Bottom line is that Apple need to pull their finger out & start taking the desktop OS seriously for the first time in about 10 years. But they won't. All they care about is allocating more and more staff to make iOS a bloated sad sorry mess instead.
  9. pika2000 macrumors 601

    Jun 22, 2007
    High Sierra is not as bad as Yosemite. I mean Yosemite was so bad that even the mail app was crashing constantly.
  10. fisherking macrumors 603


    Jul 16, 2010
    ny somewhere
    and THAT's the point. every version of the mac OS has had it's fans & detractors. it just depends on your experience with that OS. no one version is perfect (or, for that matter, tragic).

    i have a few issues on HS (altho the 10.13.5 beta's pretty good); i have had issues on each OS since 10.2 (my first).

    not everyone has the same experience. anyway, this forum is a great place to discuss, get help, offer help. wish there were a 'whining' filter tho....
  11. cdapple macrumors newbie


    Jun 7, 2010
    I haven't noticed huge performance issues, but the upgrade/update process with High Sierra has been awful for us. Each of the three Macs in my office have had issues upgrading to High Sierra or simply updating High Sierra. Corrupted update packages, hanging installs, etc. Two of the three required complete wipes and clean installs, and I decided to bypass the issues on the third by upgrading to an SSD and installing a new copy of the OS on that drive (so...a third clean install). I will say that the local Apple store seemed to be fully aware of the mess and acknowledged that this has been a fairly big issue.
  12. pika2000 macrumors 601

    Jun 22, 2007
    But considering we are getting a change in file system on HS, a LOT more could’ve gone wrong, and imo for what we have now, HS is not too bad.
    Compare this to Yosemite, where even the basic email app is crashing. Now that was really embarrassing.

    My best experience with macOS so far are Tiger, Snow Leopard, and El Capitan.
  13. Fishrrman macrumors P6


    Feb 20, 2009
    I have no proof, but I sense that many of the problems users are having with High Sierra is related to the APFS file system.

    I'd stay away from it, at least for now.

    I have a "test copy" of HS running on an OLD LaCie firewire hard drive.
    It boots slowly, but once running seems smooth and predictable.
    But again, this install is to HFS+, and NOT on an APFS-based drive.

    I also cloned that install to a USB3 SSD for a while, and it ran fine from that.
    Again, the SSD was HFS+, not APFS.

    My experiences only.
  14. fisherking macrumors 603


    Jul 16, 2010
    ny somewhere
    i dunno, one size does not fit all. i have two macs, both on HS (and on the betas, to be clear), and am getting my work done on both. also, never had email issues in yosemite.

    some betas have wreaked (a little) havoc, but.. they were betas.

    anyway, for me, every version of mac os has had it's good & bad qualities, but i always can get my work done... which matters most to me.

    unless EVERY single user shares an issue, it's not global; but we all know this....
  15. doitdada, Apr 25, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018

    doitdada macrumors 6502a


    Oct 14, 2013
    I have some lag on my MacBook Pro 2016 15" with 450 when connected to a 4k screen and using the builtin monitor at the same time. Especially using VMs and wine, and it seems like throttling. Again the Internet is taking more and more resources from our computers. Big GIFs, 4k video and javascript galore is making the computer experience look better, but does the hardware follow, and does the code get utilised? Sometimes I feel like we are back running Flash on first generations Pentiums in the 90s and early 2000s.

    I don't need the annual software release, ship it when the boat floats, but please provide me with updated hardware to buy.

    Only 1% of the Internet have a voice, the others are just lurkers and upvoters/downvoters.

    Seconded. Still, in the old days, they seemed to introduce stuff I used, now it is more about features and not flow. Postponing stuff has also become a constant ... wait ... MacBook Pro wasn't updated in a while before they shipped the touch bar version, the new Mac Pro are supposedly set to ship next year every year. There is no real ecosystem at the moment, more like small patches of green grass around the iPhone.
  16. fisherking macrumors 603


    Jul 16, 2010
    ny somewhere
    am assuming the point is, we're only getting 1% of macusers posting here? so that if a huge number of people here (say, 8 or 9), have an issue, we don't have to assume that everyone is suffering? because most of my clients and collabs are on macs, and most get their work done, regardless of what OS they're running (and some are on HS)...
  17. Starship67 Suspended


    Oct 28, 2017
    This post you just lost all your credibility. You sound like a spoiled child stomping their feet. If your not happy take your money somewhere else and move on.
  18. vkd macrumors 6502a


    Sep 10, 2012

    Because of the bloatware that you talk about, the needless, pointless, retarded "new technology" you are forced to install on your computer with the latest and not-greatest. A good option would be for them to include a menu on the OS installer so you can pick and choose just what you want on your computer. Even Windows used to have this type of thing years ago, albeit flimsy and vague but nowadays an OS install is so highly simplified that you basically just press a button and go for it, no questions asked.
  19. doitdada, Apr 25, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018

    doitdada macrumors 6502a


    Oct 14, 2013
    Most of all the forum users are complainers, entertainers or simply advertisers. Very few are genuine about their passion, and have some experience to back up their posts. Power users get stuff to work almost regardless, so yes, professional don't fail, because they can't fail :) The only killer product out from Apple at the moment, is the iPhone X, it may be the phone that completes the form factor and the smartphone as we know it. FaceID adds flow to your work, and the camera may get some AI adjustments and a 0.1 extra F-stop biannually, but it is hard to see real innovation. The Apple watch is simply too dumb at the moment, and if you need a wristband to measure health stats, there are cheaper, better, more accurate and organised gadgets out there.

    If Apple Pay was more universal and adapted, I would probably get use out of the watch, but since payments and digital currencies at the moment are a "bag of hurt", I can't really predict the future.

    Alot of the bundled apps also suck. Siri, Notes, Reminders and Health are awful. Calendar, FaceTime and Messages are still good, but fewer people are using them. Mail is still kind of decent, and iBooks is great to sync books and PDFs. Windows is not an alternative, but macOS should move on and spend more time on getting stuff right and finished, you know refine, pixel perfect, make the flow follow your work. iWork or whatever is still updated, and a lot of the bugs and features are getting better, but Excel is still a single core app on Mac and is still the industry standard in spreadsheets.

    Excel now has multi core support.

    No, of all the users on this forum, around 1% post content to the board. Just think about all the forums that you got from Google searches that you didn't register at or even read a whole post. Bots is another dimension.
  20. CrashX, Apr 25, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018

    CrashX thread starter macrumors 6502

    Apr 13, 2012
    Not being a tech guru, maybe I give them way too much credit - but why is it that the folks I look up to as gurus haven't bothered to look into the massive delay on startup introduced with High Sierra?

    No one thinks it's the least bit odd that Apple just gets a pass? Nothing to see here, folks - move along? Trust that Apple knows best?

    I'd always thought that at least the reviewers at Ars Technica were extremely thorough? Instead, they just advise everyone to jump on board? No mention of the MASSIVE startup lag?

    I appreciate that the rest of us can make random guesses as to the WHY - but shouldn't someone outside Apple have the expertise to look into these things and explain what's happening? For instance -

    "Users might experience a significant delay on startup with the new... however, this initial delay delivers..."

    But instead, the delay isn't even mentioned, and all reports of bad experiences seem to be treated as heresy?

    I had no idea an OS could be so political?

    Apple writes the OS to run only on computers they make. What level of incompetence is required for them to botch it so terribly? Exactly who's idiot children have they put in charge? ;)

    How can someone have an opinion on startup lag? It's either there or it's not. What - my particular computer just has a bad "tranny" that's magically "fixed" by reverting back to Sierra? It's just my opinion?

    Ah well... hopefully someone might bother to lift the hood and bother to explain the startup delay? And, more importantly, why it MIGHT be acceptable in light of all the "wonders"... whatever... delivers?

    Other than that, I'll continue to suspect that Apple rushed to release a buggy mess - as continually reported by the kind folks brave enough to report the heresy? #MeAppleToo?

    It's a freakin' COMPUTER! The only responsible attitude is to harshly criticize ANYTHING Apple gets wrong, as they're the only folks even ALLOWED to fix the proprietary mess.

    Why was the startup delay introduced? What's going on? I'm just hammering away on that because I find it impossible to believe that my machine was just goofing off for an extra 30 seconds? And either it's a shared experience among all owners of my model, or ... ? I'm not "usage-pattern"ing my computer as it lazes away, dreamily starting up the most awesome OS ever by the world's most awesomest ever computer company that's so dreamy and awesome and stuff.

    Why the startup delay? Does anyone know? And WHY doesn't anyone seem to care to even look into it?

    Have I got the dance wrong? Am I saying the wrong incantation? Should I buy a different brand of pixie dust to sprinkle around as Apple works its magic on my computer for an extra 30 seconds?

    I realize it must be all my fault. I just need to know how to correct my bad behavior in the presence of such absolute Apple perfection ;)
  21. Strider64 macrumors 6502a


    Dec 1, 2015
    Suburb of Detroit
    LOL, I find it a little funny about a 30 second delay in startup, for I remember 300 baud modems and the C:\ prompt. Now I'm not saying there isn't any bugs with High Sierra, but belly aching to a forum isn't going to do much. I can see checking out if other people are experiencing problems with High Sierra to see if there joining forces to complain to Apple will get better results or there isn't a fix or update to the problem. An mocking someone who doesn't or hasn't experience any problems doesn't serve a purpose either. I for one haven't had any serious problems yet, but I won't be get upset if it happens. There has been a few times were my iMac Pro took a little longer to startup that usual, but it did eventually boot up and on my way I went. Just my .02 cents.
  22. CrashX, Apr 25, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018

    CrashX thread starter macrumors 6502

    Apr 13, 2012
    Ha - I could never afford those 300 baud modems. I think I came in around 1200? /// EZ Pieces...

    And, granted, there's absolutely no reason for me to fuss about 30 seconds, right?

    ONLY - in our post 300 baud world, 30 seconds is like 30 YEARS, right? It indicates that something is likely BADLY broken, SERIOUSLY messed up - right? Or am I wrong? Again, does anyone know?

    So I paid for an M Series. I take it out to track day, hit the Start button - and... 30 seconds later...

    I'm calling a mechanic, right? What the #*!%? NO!!!!!

    Meanwhile, I get in my Jeep, turn the key - might need to give her some gas - at least I can HEAR what's going on. Yep, she's fine - no worries. Good ol' inline 6.

    30 seconds should be HELLA scary given the MASSIVE POWER of my computer. I'd like to know WHAT is going on - right? Something most definitely ain't right.

    And my apologies if anyone felt mocked - it seemed I was being mocked for daring to question Apple's infallibility, so - as a good citizen - I tend to try to give back?

    It's a computer. Why introduce a new 30 second delay on startup? Why are people's complaints discounted? Why is it in bad form to criticize Apple? What - do they need our praise?

    I remember when Apple MAY have needed our protection. They don't anymore.

    Now they need to get back to focusing on their computers just a tiny bit.

    Apparently, the... geniuses... are good with the latest in face scanning tech, wrist warmers, and whatnot gadgets. I'm certain we're all so very happy for them.

    So hey - toss us ol' loyal morons a bone - would ya, could ya, Timmy? ;) Perty please?

    Remember when you was so proud to introduce new computers - and how nothing could rival Mac OS? 'Memba when? I sher does - mighty proud, FINE upstanding times they was.

    Now my computer takes an extry 30 seconds to start. What gives, Timmy? Who done left out the spark plug? Kindly fix 'er on up, would ya? Alrightee then... thanks for playin' square with me. Mighty obliged.

    That feller in the Kia runnin' Windows 10 just blew mah doors off - says I paid way too much for my fancy Apple badgin'. Downright shameful...

    How's that? Oh - what's a computer? Why, sadly, it's that archaic old thing some of us try to use, what to create pretty much all of the content you mindlessly devour on your cutesy little smart device. Now get off my lawn!
  23. splifingate macrumors 6502


    Nov 27, 2013
    urhm, my 6-yo 5,1 (which rocks the fsck'n soft-fantastic, btw) belies that statement :)

    Technology is surpassing our ability to utilise it at a pace that frequently out-strips our ability to comprehend.

    I disagree (vehemently, in some areas) on direction/focus/intent wrt/AAPL Development, but the efforts/works I was able to do (and not-do), today, encourage me, only more.

    Meanwhile, let-it-be that I pound my fists upon my own walls, in deference to yours.

    Regards, splifingate
  24. Steve121178 macrumors 601


    Apr 13, 2010
    Bedfordshire, UK
    You can disagree all you want. The absolute fact is that High Sierra murdered my 2011 MBA and quite a lot of other users with other Macs released in 2011.

    The MBA has a very good processor (built on Sandy Bridge architecture), a Samsung SSD (considered the best performing out of all the variants Apple were using at the time) and a lot of RAM.

    Under Sierra it was still a perfect machine. High Sierra renders it almost unusable.
  25. esk macrumors member

    Sep 26, 2016
    My boot up time is a couple of seconds. What Mac and what hard drive are you using?

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