Why is High Sierra so horrible?

[F1Mac]

Properly shutting down and starting is still how the OS is designed to behave. Maybe not nightly, but every once in a while.

Not really, its Unix foundation means that the OS is actually built to be running 24/7, as a lot of bg maintenance tasks are done at night by default.

Shutting down the computer is something that goes back to pre-OS X days.

Not taking into account, of course, power consumption, which is another matter.

 

[fisherking]

I shut down every night and the additional startup time is an annoyance.
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My cMP is a power hog even in sleep mode. During the winter it's a space heater and during the summer I need AC in the room to keep the room at a reasonable temperature 🙂.

and how long is your startup? (just curious)...

 

[crjackson2134]

Wow, what a thread. I found it amusing for awhile but then it became redundant Ad nauseam.

Just for fun, I'll say that my MacPro in my sig takes 11 Sec from button push to bong finish. Then it takes 26-29 seconds from bong finish to desktop. This is a few seconds slower, but only a few.

It is indeed a little slower on HS than any OS I've used here to date, but only a little. It boots a little slower, apps launch a little slower. It's observable on MY machine, but it's not a show-stopper that would cause me to go backwards.

I imagine that additional boot protection from malware, new filesystem, additional code for baremetal2, and a whole plethora of things going on the the background are responsible. I see no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water and fully expect that EVENTUALLY it will become more refined and more responsive.

Again, not a deal breaker, but it's mildly observable to ME. YMMV

 

[OriginalAppleGuy]

Quite frankly, as someone who deals with processing hardware on a daily basis on a professional level, the original statement posed by the OP seemed somewhat ignorant to me. If there really is a 30 second increase in boot time on his machine, he didn't allow the system to settle down before coming to a proper conclusion.

I'll through some speculation in here to remind everyone there were a couple vulnerabilities associated with Intel processors that were addressed earlier this year. Apple released mitigations for the Meltdown and Spectre vulnerabilities in iOS 11.2.2, the macOS High Sierra 10.13.2 Supplemental Update, and Safari 11.0.2 for macOS Sierra and OS X El Capitan. There is a possibility these updates are some of the causes of some perceived delay.

I'll restate this as well (others have said the same thing in earlier posts) - shutting down your Mac or PC for that matter nightly isn't good for the system. They are designed to be on for long periods of time. A good practice may be to restart once a month if updates didn't come out that already handled that for you. Even with reboots, keep the systems on. Traveling is a different story. Use your best judgement there. Especially if your system still has spinning disks.

 

[Crunch]

just wondering why people shut down so often; seems an old idea. what's wrong with sleep? (for the record, i have power nap off)...

Me too. No Power Nap for me either. I also don't turn off. In fact, my most recent record is over a month without even a reboot. Got the screen shot to prove it. haha...

Now, about 10.13.5...how is it? And perhaps more important, how has 10.13.4 been in the last weeks? Any improvements you notice?

 

[flyinmac]

Me too. No Power Nap for me either. I also don't turn off. In fact, my most recent record is over a month without even a reboot. Got the screen shot to prove it. haha...

Now, about 10.13.5...how is it? And perhaps more important, how has 10.13.4 been in the last weeks? Any improvements you notice?

I would imagine that perhaps some of those who shut down might do so to reduce their electric bill.

It makes little sense to turn it on and off several times a day. But if they sleep 8 hours, and perhaps work in the morning for 8 hours. That’s 16 hours of no electrical consumption.

I realize that machines in “sleep mode” consume less power. But less is still more than none.

I leave one machine on all the time to supply movies and music to my tv. Which I like to have on random demand.

But, my other computers are off when I’m not using them. I might turn them on once a day or once a week for a few hours.

The machine that I leave on is the recently acquired iMac (2009). And I have it set to turn off the screen and power down hard drives when not in use. But I don’t know how much power it still draws in that state.

I’ve never had any success with wake on lan for any platform. Probably because there is no specific call to the IP address from an Apple TV (if the computer isn’t awake and online, then the Apple TV doesn’t see it to call on it).

 

[crjackson2134]

Well, in my case sleep doesn’t work unless I force it manually. It never has, unless it’s booted to Windows. Even then it takes several tries before it will take. Add that to the fact that if I leave it running, the cat will seek out its warmth and get hair in the system along with waking the machine with either keyboard walking, or mouse swatting.

I only use my cMP w 2-3 hours a day so it makes no sense to leave it on all the time. And yes, it noticeably impacts the electricity bill and room heat.

 

[fisherking]

Me too. No Power Nap for me either. I also don't turn off. In fact, my most recent record is over a month without even a reboot. Got the screen shot to prove it. haha...

Now, about 10.13.5...how is it? And perhaps more important, how has 10.13.4 been in the last weeks? Any improvements you notice?

10.13.5? seems fine, i can't report any issues (for me, i'm saying for me lol); fast, stable, SAME FAST BOOT on both my macs as always (so slow boot is not a 'high sierra issue' but an issue for some, worth troubleshooting..)

as far as sleep; so many theories. but here's my fave: that booting the mac is far more demanding an action that waking from sleep, and also uses more electricity.

either way, for 20 years now, i mostly sleep my macs, and reboot occasionally, and (if i'm away, for example), shut down completely.

we OWN our macs, and can do what we want. makes life interesting...

 

[F1Mac]

10.13.5? seems fine, i can't report any issues (for me, i'm saying for me lol); fast, stable, SAME FAST BOOT on both my macs as always (so slow boot is not a 'high sierra issue' but an issue for some, worth troubleshooting..)

Slow boot is very much a high sierra issue for some (actually more like a lot), not just an issue. People in this thread, while enjoying picking on the OP seem to forget than High Sierra has an overall weaker, or slower performance than Sierra and previous versions. It's not just about the "slow boot". This is happening on a supposedly much modern and faster file system, with a more "refined" and "optimized" OS. If they're ok with that that's fine but they should stop pretending high sierra is "better", it's not. I really didn't like downgrading as it took me a lot of time to have everything properly reinstalled, but Sierra just feels right. What major functionality makes HS a 'must-have' upgrade? None. If HS represents a more streamlined Sierra, then why is it slower? Should be the opposite, regardless of the hardware. El Capitan was, for me, the last time an OS upgrade felt like an actual upgrade (better performance, better system font than Yosemite, etc). But useless background processes also started to pop up, which got a little worse with Sierra, and even worse with High Sierra. Sadly I don't expect much from the upcoming 10.14 either.

 

[fisherking]

Slow boot is very much a high sierra issue for some (actually more like a lot), not just an issue. People in this thread, while enjoying picking on the OP seem to forget than High Sierra has an overall weaker, or slower performance than Sierra and previous versions. It's not just about the "slow boot". This is happening on a supposedly much modern and faster file system, with a more "refined" and "optimized" OS. If they're ok with that that's fine but they should stop pretending high sierra is "better", it's not. I really didn't like downgrading as it took me a lot of time to have everything properly reinstalled, but Sierra just feels right. What major functionality makes HS a 'must-have' upgrade? None. If HS represents a more streamlined Sierra, then why is it slower? Should be the opposite, regardless of the hardware. El Capitan was, for me, the last time an OS upgrade felt like an actual upgrade (better performance, better system font than Yosemite, etc). But useless background processes also started to pop up, which got a little worse with Sierra, and even worse with High Sierra. Sadly I don't expect much from the upcoming 10.14 either.

yes, exactly: a high sierra issue for some (of course, no one has numbers on how many people experience this; we all know that this forum is a place inhabited by a minute fraction of macusers...)

 

[F1Mac]

yes, exactly: a high sierra issue for some (of course, no one has numbers on how many people experience this; we all know that this forum is a place inhabited by a minute fraction of macusers...)

Which means that there is indeed an issue that needs to be adressed. People don't complain about High Sierra poor performance just for pleasure. When the Avid Video Engine in Pro Tools starts to act funny for somebody but not me, that means something needs to be done on Avid's part to fix the problem, regardless if some people are affected or thousands.

Statistically, if a lot of people are experiencing and reporting an issue on MR, which represents, yes, a fraction of mac users, there's good chance said issue is actually affecting a lot more people outside of MR. Slow boot and slower performance in High Sierra have been widely reported, it's not just something anal MR members are making up. APFS has issues with SSDs that need to be fixed.

The OS should not get in our way, but lately it has a tendency to do so.

Anyways...

 

[fisherking]

Which means that there is indeed an issue that needs to be adressed. People don't complain about High Sierra poor performance just for pleasure. When the Avid Video Engine in Pro Tools starts to act funny for somebody but not me, that means something needs to be done on Avid's part to fix the problem, regardless if some people are affected or thousands.

Statistically, if a lot of people are experiencing and reporting an issue on MR, which represents, yes, a fraction of mac users, there's good chance said issue is actually affecting a lot more people outside of MR. Slow boot and slower performance in High Sierra have been widely reported, it's not just something anal MR members are making up. APFS has issues with SSDs that need to be fixed.

The OS should not get in our way, but lately it has a tendency to do so.

Anyways...

you do understand that every version of the mac os has had issues, for some. so it's business as usual. and, of course, no one complains for pleasure (except, perhaps the OP 😀); but, if not everyone has an issue, it's not black&white, ie we can't say "HS suffers from slow bootup", but that "some people are experiencing slow bootup in HS"... and yes, it should be addressed.

 

[Tozovac]

Because it still hasn't brought back "lickable buttons" brought on by Jony Ive's great Pixel Purge of 2013/2014, sticking us still with those Fisher Price My-First-Computer stoplight buttons.

 

[fisherking]

Because it still hasn't brought back "lickable buttons" brought on by Jony Ive's great Pixel Purge of 2013/2014, sticking us still with those Fisher Price My-First-Computer stoplight buttons.

this is a big issue? and have you tried changing to the graphite buttons?...

 

[Crunch]

Quite frankly, as someone who deals with processing hardware on a daily basis on a professional level, the original statement posed by the OP seemed somewhat ignorant to me. If there really is a 30 second increase in boot time on his machine, he didn't allow the system to settle down before coming to a proper conclusion.

I'll through some speculation in here to remind everyone there were a couple vulnerabilities associated with Intel processors that were addressed earlier this year. Apple released mitigations for the Meltdown and Spectre vulnerabilities in iOS 11.2.2, the macOS High Sierra 10.13.2 Supplemental Update, and Safari 11.0.2 for macOS Sierra and OS X El Capitan. There is a possibility these updates are some of the causes of some perceived delay.

I'll restate this as well (others have said the same thing in earlier posts) - shutting down your Mac or PC for that matter nightly isn't good for the system. They are designed to be on for long periods of time. A good practice may be to restart once a month if updates didn't come out that already handled that for you. Even with reboots, keep the systems on. Traveling is a different story. Use your best judgement there. Especially if your system still has spinning disks.

I'm not buying the whole Intel explanation. Add 30 SECONDS to boot time in 2018 on PCIe and even NVMe SSD's??? I don't think so. 30 seconds is a near eternity for booting these days. When I turn my MacBook Pro on, it boots in a few seconds - that's it.

What takes more time is re-loading the thousands of tabs on Safari that I have open every day, along with all the other apps I run on a daily basis. All that costs time.

And I have to admit that High Sierra was better at not having to be re-booted than Sierra, and I'm not counting those updates that require a restart.

I do agree with you on the wear issue of powering off and on electronics, any electronics. That's not exclusive to Macs, though.
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Because it still hasn't brought back "lickable buttons" brought on by Jony Ive's great Pixel Purge of 2013/2014, sticking us still with those Fisher Price My-First-Computer stoplight buttons.

Are you talking about the Great Flattening of virtually all OS's during that awful time when so-called skeuomorphism disappeared? If so, I muuuuuch preferred the pretty icons for each app, and with Retina displays, they were so incredibly detailed. 😡

 

[Tozovac]

this is a big issue? and have you tried changing to the graphite buttons?...

Not a big issue, but just another micro-lessening of the Details which previously made Apple software the special experience it was before 2013's purge of certain UI elements which lent beauty, distinctiveness, and intuitive cues to iOS/OSX.

Now, to me OSX and iOS look like just another washed-out flat-design-fad-wannabe set of kissing cousins to Android, Google material design, and Windows, which is ironic since Android/Google/Windows all once copied as much as they could from the magical era of iOS/OSX (pre-2013, pre-Jony-Ive poisoning the software) but without looking like too exact a copy. So now today's post-2013 iOS/OSX has just joined up in the paleface flat/drab club.

What do "graphite buttons" do, I'm not familiar with that?

 

[Crunch]

Not a big issue, but just another micro-lessening of the Details which previously made Apple software the special experience it was before 2013's purge of certain UI elements which lent beauty, distinctiveness, and intuitive cues to iOS/OSX.

What do "graphite buttons" do, I'm not familiar with that?

I think it IS a big issue. Whenever I see an older app with gorgeous iconography, or even the old liquid progress bar, I think of what was taken from us.

It was an industry-wide "flattening", however, so there was an agenda to uglify GUIs back to 2D appearance, even though GPUs were more than capable of handling all the cool transitions and graphics that OS X used to have.

 

[Tozovac]

I think it IS a big issue. Whenever I see an older app with gorgeous iconography, or even the old liquid progress bar, I think of what was taken from us.

It was an industry-wide "flattening", however, so there was an agenda to uglify GUIs back to 2D appearance, even though GPUs were more than capable of handling all the cool transitions and graphics that OS X used to have.

OK you sold me. It is a big issue. But I'm trying to downplay it and "get over it" since it looks like this awful flat/unintuitive/drab fad is still here to stay for a bit. Until of course, Jony Ive is rightfully kicked out of the software/UIx labs, or (and this could be bad), he gains favor to convince the board to let him randomly (and unnecessarily) overhaul the UI once again once the iOS7-11 "look" feels old.... Then Lord help us with what random made-up UI inventions could appear. Maybe all black & white & grey.
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I think it IS a big issue. Whenever I see an older app with gorgeous iconography, or even the old liquid progress bar, I think of what was taken from us.

It was an industry-wide "flattening", however, so there was an agenda to uglify GUIs back to 2D appearance, even though GPUs were more than capable of handling all the cool transitions and graphics that OS X used to have.

Now you're getting me started again. And the liquid progress bar was SO MUCH functionally better than the barely-discernible thin blue line, as the progress bar could be seen with peripheral vision rather than the barely-discernible stupid blue line, which....went on to poison other sites like YouTube which buried/hid the pogress tracker for a video, and similarly was applied to iTunes and the Music apps, both of which are garbage shadows of what they once used to be. Then even stores like Starbucks replaced their prior chalkboard-look menus with white cardboard with light grey & brown text....just ridiculous.

The revised little blue line serves what purpose other than being different than what it replaced?

 

[halofan56]

My experience with the OS was extremely brief. I installed it on my machine, noticed that the startup time had increased at least 30 seconds - which seemed like an eternity given how spoiled I've become with an SSD - so I immediately went back to Sierra.

I've never read any ATTEMPT at an explanation as to why even the startup time increased so much? Ars Technica doesn't even explain it - instead they published the glowing review that convinced me to try the update in the first place?

This all just seems very weird? Sadly, I'm paranoid enough to think:

"Shhh... don't tell anyone what's actually going on at Apple - they have WAY too much money these days! Seriously, they'll bury us!" 😉

You'd think that at LEAST Ars Technica would have grumbled at least a WEE tiny little bit - but no? All's well that's not even close to well - even for a completely non-technical person like me?

Nope - their review screams "All aboard!" It's PERFECT! Awesome improvements under the hood!

Do what now?

I guess we can all hope for a Snow Sierra with the next outing - so we can just skip this whole mess? That sadly actually is my only plan? Well, other than fear that Apple will never release another decent OS for their lowly bothersome old computer division?

I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks?

And, if anyone would care to explain what's up with the ridiculously long startup time? Why is that?

If you're running a late 2013 Retina MacBook Pro and NOT experiencing that issue, then I'd be very interested to understand how/why your machine is more special than mine?

I thought they all came out of the same factory - which has always kinda been the whole point, right? The OS can be FINELY turned for our specific machines, allowing them to operate at their very BEST? Right? No?

I seriously don't get this at all? I'm not committing heresy by complaining that the startup time is weird at best, right? There's apparently zero explanation for it, so... ?

But, rather than getting berated for not lovingly towing the line and loving Apple as much as I should -

Please at least just explain the startup time thingy? I don't get it? Does anyone? It seriously freaks me out that even Ars Technica refuses to even mention it - much less criticize it?

Thanks for any feedback.

[doublepost=1525805999][/doublepost]The new APFS is allegedly slows the startup time and enabling trim force helps, depending on what mac machine you running. you do it in terminal. very simple process. requires a reboot to enable it. the command is: sudo trimforce enable.

 

[fisherking]

Not a big issue, but just another micro-lessening of the Details which previously made Apple software the special experience it was before 2013's purge of certain UI elements which lent beauty, distinctiveness, and intuitive cues to iOS/OSX.

Now, to me OSX and iOS look like just another washed-out flat-design-fad-wannabe set of kissing cousins to Android, Google material design, and Windows, which is ironic since Android/Google/Windows all once copied as much as they could from the magical era of iOS/OSX (pre-2013, pre-Jony-Ive poisoning the software) but without looking like too exact a copy. So now today's post-2013 iOS/OSX has just joined up in the paleface flat/drab club.

What do "graphite buttons" do, I'm not familiar with that?

System Preferences>Appearance>Graphite (for Buttons, Menus, and Windows). seems better than the color buttons.

would be great if apple gave us more GUI options; i much-prefer the current flat look to the older 3d look, but, if you like it, why can't apple offer it in system preferences?

end of the day, tho, my biggest concern is getting my real work done, and, in HS, am killing it (& happy).

 

[foliovision]

I can agree with all your points but why update now ? Currently, Apple still supplies the critical security updates to Sierra and no application I'm aware of requires High Sierra.

Latest features and bug fixes to new features in FCPX 10.4 (very important bug fixes, related to colour and crashes) are not available in Sierra. Video editors are the last people who should be running cutting edge OS versions or testing new file systems (APFS). But Apple in their infinite wisdom has decided to push us onto beta OS (after the FCP Studio debacle and destroying Aperture which was the fastest and best RAW converter) whether we like it or not.

Some of us don't like it.

 

[fisherking]

Latest features and bug fixes to new features in FCPX 10.4 (very important bug fixes, related to colour and crashes) are not available in Sierra. Video editors are the last people who should be running cutting edge OS versions or testing new file systems (APFS). But Apple in their infinite wisdom has decided to push us onto beta OS (after the FCP Studio debacle and destroying Aperture which was the fastest and best RAW converter) whether we like it or not.

Some of us don't like it.

i've been running FCPX (& logic X) thru the betas, without issue. 10.13.5 was fine here (and, for that matter, the 10.13.6 beta1 is fine too)....

 

[crjackson2134]

So far I’m ecstatic with 10.13.5 compared to earlier versions of HS.

I have ONE annoyance I “wish” would go away, but it’s not a deal breaker. I guess I’ll learn to live with it.

 

[bobbie424242]

All this talk about long boot times and nobody mentioned booting macOS in text mode to check what is taking time for troubleshooting (sorry did not read all 9 pages...) ?

 

[Mr. 123]

Quite frankly, as someone who deals with processing hardware on a daily basis on a professional level, the original statement posed by the OP seemed somewhat ignorant to me. If there really is a 30 second increase in boot time on his machine, he didn't allow the system to settle down before coming to a proper conclusion.

I'll through some speculation in here to remind everyone there were a couple vulnerabilities associated with Intel processors that were addressed earlier this year. Apple released mitigations for the Meltdown and Spectre vulnerabilities in iOS 11.2.2, the macOS High Sierra 10.13.2 Supplemental Update, and Safari 11.0.2 for macOS Sierra and OS X El Capitan. There is a possibility these updates are some of the causes of some perceived delay.

I'll restate this as well (others have said the same thing in earlier posts) - shutting down your Mac or PC for that matter nightly isn't good for the system. They are designed to be on for long periods of time. A good practice may be to restart once a month if updates didn't come out that already handled that for you. Even with reboots, keep the systems on. Traveling is a different story. Use your best judgement there. Especially if your system still has spinning disks.

Is it seriously not good to power down and on? I always turn off most of my electronics when going to sleep and that includes my iPhone, MacBook Pro and MacBook Air. And when I’m out I always turn off the MBA after using it.

How seldom should one turn off computers?