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Why is the MP so expensive?
- Thread starter Loa
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You go tell Gruber and Benjamin that. I'm also guessing your renders would make an iMac cry.
They also speculated your use case also is a reason why people would rather go for a Pro over an iMac.
BTW, I want to make it pretty clear. I'm an OSX Fanboy, but yes, I also love Linux, but I don't think that Dell's my vendor of choice for Linux hardware.
I suspect they would as I have them rendering across a QMaster cluster to fully use all my Intel Macs to capacity, and even then its slow enough Im considering purchasing a few Minis/another Pro just to add CPU capacity (and make collaborative projects less difficult). And I suspect it is the main reason - I mean had I not needed the expansion and speed, Id still use my older iMacs I expect.
As far as Linux goes, I tend to build my own PC boxes from either scratch or a barebones box, although now instead of that I just have Linux etc all in VMs (Thats the other thing the Mac Pro kicks ass at, due to the 24GB+ RAM I can stick in it - massive multitasking). Although I do still have a single Dual Core physical linux box on my network to let me play around with Blender and just let it rot.
I'd get the Pro over several minis. more cache, more cores, more threads.
Err, my linux comment wasn't directed at you, it was just to make it clear in this thread I'm not anti-Linux, I'm just anti-Dell. 🙂
Usually I like Linux as a web backend running a LAMP stack with all of my work being done on my Mac. In those situations it's up to IT purchasing to build the VM or put together whatever box my team works on. For some reason, the memory leak issue in Firefox didn't make my personal C2D MacBook cry like my last work issued Windows Core i5 machine.
I know the Pro would be better, but it costs a lot more. And I guessed it wasn't, I just figured Id add my thoughts on it (Im anti-DELL as well. Well, more anti-OptiPlex, since those have got to be the worst machines Ive ever had to use, and I would never buy DELL out of choice except for monitors, as those are relatively good from what I hear.)
Im also blessed with the fact that I in effect am the "IT" guy for the editing group I work with, so we run a proper editing setup, instead of a nightmareish mess of PCs and Macs with all 3 major OSes installed, I run a Mac OS X based ship (purely as we do video mainly, so everyone has Final Cut as well as AVID), including an XServe G5 and a older Mac Mini as servers. Everything else is as virtualised as possible, as we have several Mac Pros as editing machines which are very good at VMs, and Im the only one who tends to use Linux software with any regularity.
Avro
macrumors regular
No I meant, thick wooden objects get snapped. Some of the moves can be very rough.
Agreed, but for the foreseeable future Macs still have advantage.
They were not using anything more complex than Quark or Photoshop, but Windows has needs and got in one's face far too much. One commentator has described the difference between Windows and OS X is like that between a boy scout with a lifetime supply of chocolate covered coffee beans and a well trained English Butler.
Yes quite often the human factor is the weakest link, but again we live in a real world rather than a theoretical one and Windows just has far too many shortcomings for me ... and many others. Cheaper yes, but at what price?
Haha, good one. 😀
Although funny, that is exactly the reason why I switched to OS X about 6 years ago. 😉
I don't wanna get disturbed by a gazillion popups about completely irrelevant things ("You plugged in a headphone" YES I KNOW THAT, I JUST DID THAT!, stupid thing 😡) and just want to get my work done. OS X does that much nicer IMO.
But hey, we're drifting to Windows vs. OS X. A battle that can't be fought as there simply is no good or bad, no right or wrong, no silver bullet.
The Mac vs. PC discussion really is stupid, buy what you need and what suits you, simple as that. And all these PC user haters saying "you bought a Mac, you idiot" just don't seem to get that. Inferiority complex or something like that, I don't know.
Who operates and loads the aircraft? Gorillas and Elephants?. 😱 Sounds like the RAF needs better pilots and crews. 😀 😛
I'm still not getting a picture though (namely in terms of the actual hardware and OS/server configurations if present). Basically, was it on enterprise hardware (gets more validation testing than the consumer grade gear), and what sort of IT customization may have been in place (or not), as well as the configurations (single machines vs. networked, or even if clusters were involved). Granted, for the applications you've listed, I'd expect it to be rather simple, but the details help immensely. Time frame would as well (i.e. past versions of Windows were horrible, as things did tend to break often).
I like it.
As per now however, I don't even see the budget boxes as the Boyscout with chocolate covered coffee beans - more like a soldier with plenty of ration cans, but no way to open them. 😱 😛 But this tends to be due to the hardware selected in my experience (drivers suck/unstable signals, and result in all kinds of aggravation).
As mentioned previously, "You get what you pay for" comes to mind, and I definitely believe in this one. But this is applicable everywhere, even within the Windows world (i.e. enterprise vs. consumer gear, particularly the cheap consumer boxes). The differences in my experience are incredible - they've been that drastic, though admittedly, it was more obvious in the not too distant past (can still happen, but the companies that produce gear like this is shrinking from what I can tell, due to the ODM system). 🙁 But this applies to the electronics industry in general, not just computers, let alone those that run a particular OS.
I agree.
It's up to the user to figure out the best fit for their particular needs. Not always easy for those without the skills/correct information pertinent to their requirements though, and seems to be a big part of why these sorts of threads/discussions come up.
Unfortunately, this goes both ways (Mac users' statements can be seen as a Superiority Complex without any regard to the specific circumstances/needs).
Naturally. The prejudices about Mac users certainly do have a fair point somewhere. "My computer was more expensive than yours. Logical conclusion; has to be better in any possible way". 🙄
Avro
macrumors regular
This is my reason for sticking with the Mac. Why should the Spitfires do Victory rolls everytime Windows connects to the internet or installs a peripheral? 😕 An OS is supposed to do this, no cause for bragging.
Actually that was a reference to the civillian companies that move us by sea container. The RAF has never broken any of my IT. Mind you I am not about to tempt fate by buying a "cheap" OEM workstation and trying it out. 😱
The Dells had gone to meet their maker before I arrived, but the gist is that Windows got in the way of workflows and it took a lot longer to get a project completed. Like a lot of Enterprise we are still on Windows XP with no prospect of moving to Windows 7 in the foreseeable future.
This sort of thing is where a protective container is really useful (foam that fits the item for shock, and has seals to keep out water and solid debris).
As per a "cheap" OEM workstation, what do you mean? Substituting a consumer system or buying from a small vendor that may be using a consumer case? 😕
I ask, as workstations from vendors like Sun, HP, and Dell are typically built better (i.e. heavier metal used in the enclosures, more bracing internally, ..., and enterprise grade boards). Such systems aren't exactly "cheap", unless you're talking about the SP systems that are comparable to the SP MP. But the difference is due to Apple, not the parts in the box. DP models OTOH, are much closer in costs.
I'm not much of a fan of XP these days (gotten quite long in the tooth), and in terms of upgrading it, they may be waiting for the existing operation cycle to finish (i.e. lots of companies have extended XP's use due to a lack of funds and uncertainty in the economy; say fixed to 3 - 5 years from the date it was decided so they can squirrel away funding/"wait and see what happens").
zorinlynx
macrumors G3
It's expensive because they know we will pay for it.
For people doing professional A/V work, they are the fastest and most flexible Macs you can get. You can pack them full of disk storage and add in high speed I/O cards. You can hook a ridiculous number of displays up to them.
For enthusiast users, it is the only desktop Mac that you can truly configure any way you want. And enthusiast users tend to have money to burn.
I'm a bit sad to admit that I buy it because it's the only desktop machine from Apple that makes me truly happy. The iMac has too many limitations, and the Mac Mini has even more. The Mac Pro is the ONLY Apple machine that isn't held back with laptop components.
The fact that I bought one, and most folks in this forum did too, is why the price won't go down.
I sometimes wonder about the future of the MP. It's becoming a niche product and the percentage of money Apple makes from it has got to be tiny compared to notebooks and iMacs, and even THAT is a small percentage compared to iDevices. Hopefully they'll keep making Mac Pros for years to come as I love the damn things. My 2006 model is due for upgrade in the next couple of years!
For people doing professional A/V work, they are the fastest and most flexible Macs you can get. You can pack them full of disk storage and add in high speed I/O cards. You can hook a ridiculous number of displays up to them.
For enthusiast users, it is the only desktop Mac that you can truly configure any way you want. And enthusiast users tend to have money to burn.
I'm a bit sad to admit that I buy it because it's the only desktop machine from Apple that makes me truly happy. The iMac has too many limitations, and the Mac Mini has even more. The Mac Pro is the ONLY Apple machine that isn't held back with laptop components.
The fact that I bought one, and most folks in this forum did too, is why the price won't go down.
I sometimes wonder about the future of the MP. It's becoming a niche product and the percentage of money Apple makes from it has got to be tiny compared to notebooks and iMacs, and even THAT is a small percentage compared to iDevices. Hopefully they'll keep making Mac Pros for years to come as I love the damn things. My 2006 model is due for upgrade in the next couple of years!
Why are Mac Pros soooooooooo expensive
I am looking at some new computers and I am really wondering why the mac pros are soooooooooo expensive. I could build my own for thousands less or buy a pc for much much less. Also the performance for the entry level mac pro is pitiful. for $3,499 you get.......... no monitor, a 2.8 GHz quad core, a very very low 3 GB of RAM(it costs SOOOOO much to upgrade), a really crappy 5750, and a simple 1 TB hard drive. If I were to build my own I could have an intel 990x extreme/12 Gb of Ram/two Radeon HD 6870's! Why does this configuration cost so much. I know people say its because of snow leopard but why is snow leopard compatibility worth so much. What can you do on snow leopard that you cannot do on windows?
I am looking at some new computers and I am really wondering why the mac pros are soooooooooo expensive. I could build my own for thousands less or buy a pc for much much less. Also the performance for the entry level mac pro is pitiful. for $3,499 you get.......... no monitor, a 2.8 GHz quad core, a very very low 3 GB of RAM(it costs SOOOOO much to upgrade), a really crappy 5750, and a simple 1 TB hard drive. If I were to build my own I could have an intel 990x extreme/12 Gb of Ram/two Radeon HD 6870's! Why does this configuration cost so much. I know people say its because of snow leopard but why is snow leopard compatibility worth so much. What can you do on snow leopard that you cannot do on windows?
philipma1957
macrumors 604
I'm unclear on why you're calling it a "tax" - do you go on BMW forums and whinge about the "tax" they charge?
In any case, the answer is simple: BECAUSE THEY CAN. There's a market for this sort of system, and Apple is more than happy to make mad piles of cash servicing it. There's also the issue that while a $5000 machine looks expensive to most people, it's PEANUTS when you're strapping it to an $80k+ Pro Tools rig (or an Avid system) driven by an operator who bills at $300+/hr.
ActionableMango
macrumors G3
So go do it and stop trolling around here, especially with incorrect information.
Krevnik
macrumors 601
Apple isn't using the heavier-duty PSU to handle more load. What they are actually doing is towards reliability. Pushing a transformer closer to its rated peak load generates more heat that has to be dissipated. That means more heat, noise, and a shorter life-span from the PSU. While more expensive, a transformer with a higher peak load rating will last longer with the same load and run cooler and quieter (less fan use).
But, that does add cost beyond what is required to make the system usable.
+1
If a person has experience assembling computers and is comfortable using Windows 7 a really great machine can be built for around $1500. Just go do it.
Bubba Satori
Suspended
Has anybody checked lately what $2,500 of desktop will get you these days? 😱
Sandy Bridge that will smoke the base Xeon.
12GB of memory instead of the 3GB base joke.
The fastest video card instead of the base cartoon card.
Screaming fast SSD instead of the base pokey HD.
BD burner versus no choice at all.
What you do with the $500 left over is up to you.
Maybe a couple of 23" monitors for a dual display set up.
Magic.
Sandy Bridge that will smoke the base Xeon.
12GB of memory instead of the 3GB base joke.
The fastest video card instead of the base cartoon card.
Screaming fast SSD instead of the base pokey HD.
BD burner versus no choice at all.
What you do with the $500 left over is up to you.
Maybe a couple of 23" monitors for a dual display set up.
Magic.
philipma1957
macrumors 604
Has anybody checked lately what $2,500 of desktop will get you these days? 😱
Sandy Bridge that will smoke the base Xeon.
12GB of memory instead of the 3GB base joke.
The fastest video card instead of the base cartoon card.
Screaming fast SSD instead of the base pokey HD.
BD burner versus no choice at all.
What you do with the $500 left over is up to you.
Maybe a couple of 23" monitors for a dual display set up.
Magic.
paying 1900 for a 2010 quad 2.8 is possible. upgrade to a hex 3.2 under 400
2300 add 16 gb ram for 200.
so careful shopping gives you a
hex 3.2 with 16gb ram for 2500. downside is the gpu is out of date. the gap is not that far.
There are a lot of things that you can point to in order to explain the pricing premium that have already been discussed in this thread (e.g. upgrade cycle tax, apple tax, workstation class components, etc.), but something I haven't seen mentioned (I am guilty of not going through the whole thread) is what I feel is the #1 reason why there is not a prosumer tower that is essentially an imac with expansion/slots using desktop processors and user replaceable components and why the mac pro is so expensive: CONTROL.
What do all of the apple gadgets have in common with each other that is not true of the mac pro? All iphones/ipods/itouch don't have user replaceable batteries and macbooks/imac really aren't meant to be tinkered with by the end user for stuff like newer hard drives.
Steve jobs cringes everytime a mac pro user out there buys a hard drive from newegg and 16GB of memory from OWC. This is unavoidable with a workstation class machine and his attitude is "okay if you are going to screw me by stocking your mac pro with cheap third party components, I am going to screw you through the original purchase price".
What do all of the apple gadgets have in common with each other that is not true of the mac pro? All iphones/ipods/itouch don't have user replaceable batteries and macbooks/imac really aren't meant to be tinkered with by the end user for stuff like newer hard drives.
Steve jobs cringes everytime a mac pro user out there buys a hard drive from newegg and 16GB of memory from OWC. This is unavoidable with a workstation class machine and his attitude is "okay if you are going to screw me by stocking your mac pro with cheap third party components, I am going to screw you through the original purchase price".
derbothaus
macrumors 601
What can you do on Windows that you can't do on Linux? Futile arguments. If you were truly hardcore you'd build a PC, install a Linux distro and stf*. Logo's and design cost money and if you are against that go open source. Dollar for dollar I would rather have 2 nice things than 10 crap things. Maybe therein lies the difference.
derbothaus
macrumors 601
Apple doesn't even want to sell you these things. It is obvious in their pricing.
And unavoidable on all their HW offerings. 280.00 for a 1TB HD from Apple or 79.00 for same exact kit. 800.00 for Memory or 249.00 for same kit. If you are stupid, you pay for it. I like their model🙂
Has anybody checked lately what $2,500 of desktop will get you these days? 😱
Sandy Bridge that will smoke the base Xeon.
12GB of memory instead of the 3GB base joke.
The fastest video card instead of the base cartoon card.
Screaming fast SSD instead of the base pokey HD.
BD burner versus no choice at all.
What you do with the $500 left over is up to you.
Maybe a couple of 23" monitors for a dual display set up.
Magic.
Seems like your talking about a base Mac Pro. People have different needs so its perfectly fine to find lower specs on base systems. Then the customer can add parts for their particular needs. Its cheaper often to order through third party venders. OEM's charge too much for their upgrades, not just Apple, but all venders do this.
Bluray burners do work in Mac Pro's, you just cant watch bluray movies. You can still burn data to full capacity.
I don't trust SSD's period. I don't think a lot of IT specialists would trust them for critical systems, even though I'm sure some do. Bought a highly regarded brand of SSD drive and would not work in my MacBook Pro at all. Works fine in my Mac Pro though. Low capacity and high cost is still not good. Till all these factors are addressed then it would be more of a viable solution.
Mac Pro IS expensive, alternatives ARE available.
In the UK with a view from here to Austerity I have to be pragmatic.
I love my Mac Pro 2008 2.8 octo.
Paid far less than the current asking price for a base level 2010 2.4 quad which scores about the same geekbench (11k).
Bought it in 2008 for £1400 and pimped it over the last 3 years with RAM, GFX card and SSD.
About £700 spent over 3 years to keep it rolling faster and faster.
Looking at a new Pro I see loads of extra money for little improvement.
£2000 for the least beast, £4000 for a 12 core base unit.....
I really don't see the performance increase being enough to justify the cost.
Moore's Law dictates that the 2010 base unit Mac Pro should be 200% faster than my '08 and half the cost at least, even allowing for global economic meltdown taking out 1 year's development. Not the same speed and price including the upgrades. 😱
Think this is exorbitant? Then vote with your feet and let Uncle Steve know he has lost another sale for not being commercially competitive enough on price. A lovely new Win 7 box is yours for cheap if that is what floats your boat.
I'm not going for Win 7 8 or 9, so I'm sitting tight.
My plan for the future will have to be: keep the Octo till it becomes completely redundant and hope the Hackintoshs will, by then, be better equipped to emulate the excellent user experience the '08 has provided me over the last 3 years. 🙂
In the UK with a view from here to Austerity I have to be pragmatic.
I love my Mac Pro 2008 2.8 octo.
Paid far less than the current asking price for a base level 2010 2.4 quad which scores about the same geekbench (11k).
Bought it in 2008 for £1400 and pimped it over the last 3 years with RAM, GFX card and SSD.
About £700 spent over 3 years to keep it rolling faster and faster.
Looking at a new Pro I see loads of extra money for little improvement.
£2000 for the least beast, £4000 for a 12 core base unit.....
I really don't see the performance increase being enough to justify the cost.
Moore's Law dictates that the 2010 base unit Mac Pro should be 200% faster than my '08 and half the cost at least, even allowing for global economic meltdown taking out 1 year's development. Not the same speed and price including the upgrades. 😱
Think this is exorbitant? Then vote with your feet and let Uncle Steve know he has lost another sale for not being commercially competitive enough on price. A lovely new Win 7 box is yours for cheap if that is what floats your boat.
I'm not going for Win 7 8 or 9, so I'm sitting tight.
My plan for the future will have to be: keep the Octo till it becomes completely redundant and hope the Hackintoshs will, by then, be better equipped to emulate the excellent user experience the '08 has provided me over the last 3 years. 🙂