Why no delete key?

[960design]

I think you have the Delete and Backspace keys mixed up, but never mind.

Macbook keyboard:

Type something incorrectly... press the delete key to move the cursor back one space, deleting the error.

Windows keyboard:

Type something incorrectly... press the backspace key to move the cursor back one space, deleting the error.


The OP mentioned the mobile keyboard specifically.

On a touch system like the iPad, having Forward Delete means I don't have to be so precise when I'm placing my cursor. I can tap in the middle of the word I want to delete and forward and backward delete until it's all gone.

Hold your finger for one more second and you can delete the entire word with a single click. Much faster than tapping backspace ( on window's keyboards ) to take out half of onomatopoeia then delete to take out the other half. That's a lot of clicks.

This is just a single example, but the fact is, when typing on a desktop system, I use Forward Delete as often as Backspace.

I understand, you have been taught to use both, I have been taught to use one. I don't miss a windows Delete key, where you would. But when designing a non-windows device and you have limited space for a digital keyboard, why would you add one when you don't even add one on your normal keyboards as the OP suggested.

(Apple does have an usb keyboard with a number pad on the right that does have a 'Forward' Delete'.)

 

[Night Spring]

The OP mentioned the mobile keyboard specifically.
Hold your finger for one more second and you can delete the entire word with a single click. Much faster than tapping backspace ( on window's keyboards ) to take out half of onomatopoeia then delete to take out the other half. That's a lot of clicks.

Hmmm, holding in a typing field only brings up the magnifying glass. In order to select an entire word while typing, it seems I have to double tap, which I can't do very well because of my muscular coordination problems.

I do agree that not having forward delete isn't a deal breaker. It's just something that will make things a little more convenient if we had it. And even though space is limited on the iPad keyboard, it could be worked in somehow -- like a way to switch modes so the backspace key changes into forward delete if, say, you double tap it or hold it or turn on the caps lock -- I don't know which way will be most convenient / least disruptive, but you get the drift. It doesn't have to take up more space.

 

[ron7624]

I just want arrow keys on the ios keyboard. The magnifier is slow and cumbersome and inaccurate. ARROW KEYS PLEASE
Ok, I'm done.

 

[Beachguy]

I could use an insert key as well...

 

[saberahul]

Why is this in the iPad forum? Are you asking about the iPad keyboard or Mac?

 

[Italianblend]

On iOS, editing long URL addresses is another example. Without arrow keys or a forward delete button, if you need to get to the very end of an extremely long URL, you have to tap and hold the screen and get the little bubble and drag your finger to the right for a long time.

Also the backwards delete button isn't good for deleting large amounts of text. Hold it down and it chops off chunks at a time. Easy to delete too much. A forward delete key would be nice. Pick your spot and there's no chance of deleting too far back into your document.

 

[MobiusStrip]

Did you ever think about the fact that it's simply a compromise made for a smaller keyboard?
.

No. Every other manufacturer has been able to provide a Delete key. Even on tiny "netbooks." So there's no excuse.

Not to mention that Apple has now eliminated optical drives, so the Eject key could now be changed to Delete. But nope.

Not to mention that Apple idiotically put a HARDWARE DELAY on the Eject key, apparently because of all the fatal accidental-CD-ejection accidents that took place. They were apparently too stupid to make the Eject key a Delete key in the first place, and make Eject a secondary function that required a modifier key (like Fn). And this hardware delay prevents users from remapping the Eject key to be a Delete key.

How many ways can you display ignorance and design failure? Apple will test the boundaries, to be sure.

 

[Newtons Apple]

No. Every other manufacturer has been able to provide a Delete key. Even on tiny "netbooks." So there's no excuse.

Not to mention that Apple has now eliminated optical drives, so the Eject key could now be changed to Delete. But nope.

Not to mention that Apple idiotically put a HARDWARE DELAY on the Eject key, apparently because of all the fatal accidental-CD-ejection accidents that took place. They were apparently too stupid to make the Eject key a Delete key in the first place, and make Eject a secondary function that required a modifier key (like Fn). And this hardware delay prevents users from remapping the Eject key to be a Delete key.

How many ways can you display ignorance and design failure? Apple will test the boundaries, to be sure.

I would say most have figured it out two years ago when this thread ended.

 

[falainber]

Then go to Android.

Are you saying that Android is better?

 

[MobiusStrip]

I would say most have figured it out two years ago when this thread ended.

Apparently not. The current keyboards still don't have a real Delete key. So people are still arrowing across text and backspacing over it to get rid of it. Just like they're dragging, dragging, dragging files to the trash with the mouse because, even if you're using a keyboard with a Delete key, it inexplicably does nothing when you have a file selected in Finder and press it. Just another defect Apple pretends doesn't exist, and people "figured it out" by using a cumbersome workaround that has never been necessary under other OSes.

And... Android? That has nothing to do with Apple computers lacking a Delete key. So no.

 

[illitrate23]

Apparently not. The current keyboards still don't have a real Delete key. So people are still arrowing across text and backspacing over it to get rid of it. Just like they're dragging, dragging, dragging files to the trash with the mouse because, even if you're using a keyboard with a Delete key, it inexplicably does nothing when you have a file selected in Finder and press it. Just another defect Apple pretends doesn't exist, and people "figured it out" by using a cumbersome workaround that has never been necessary under other OSes.

you can delete files from the Finder with Command+Backspace. Forward delete is fn+backspace. Option+backspace deletes the whole word you just typed. fn+option+backspace deletes the whole word in front of the cursor.

I guess, historically, Mac users have been capable of using more than one finger at once on the keyboard, so didn't need a specific key for everything (lol print screen!!)

 

[MobiusStrip]

you can delete files from the Finder with Command+Backspace. Forward delete is fn+backspace.

That's a standard apologist response, but those are not marked on the keyboard. If you think users are going to dig through documentation, hunting for functions that they don't even know exist... you're unrealistic to say the least.

I guess, historically, Mac users have been capable of using more than one finger at once on the keyboard, so didn't need a specific key for everything

Ha ha, nice strawman. More like: Historically, Mac users are so used to crippled functionality that they just continue to laboriously drag things around with the mouse, and use double the keystrokes to delete characters while editing. You can pretend that "everyone" just magically knows and uses the invisible hotkeys, but they don't. Those that do are a small minority, and statistically way more likely than other users to visit sites like this one.

What you should be calling out is the absurdity of having to use two hands to delete a character. Every other manufacturer manages to fit this standard key on even the smallest keyboard. This isn't even a Windows-specific issue.

And in your citation of hidden hotkeys above, we can also ask: Why are there different hotkeys to trigger deletion in one app vs. another? On a proper keyboard, deleting the highlighted item is always done with the same key: Delete.

Apple is the company that made fun of IBM for expecting its users to read manuals. Yet Apple makes a habit of burying basic functionality under invisible hotkeys and even hidden menus that can only be discovered by

1. Guessing that they exist.
2. Searching for them IN A MANUAL.

 

[illitrate23]

That's a standard apologist response, but those are not marked on the keyboard. If you think users are going to dig through documentation, hunting for functions that they don't even know exist... you're unrealistic to say the least.

How do you take, a screenshot on a windows machine? do you hit the Screenshot key? no? there isn't one.
But there is a Print Screen key, maybe that's it?
No, that key, by itself, does nothing!
You have to type ctrl+printscreen. WHERE is that marked on the keyboard? or is that buried in some documentation for windows somewhere?
And, just speaking for myself, I use screen caps at work (to assist users in resolving their issues) far more times a day than i use the forward delete key.

Lets take a more generic example. It is marked on every keyboard that the symbols are above the number keys, and you know you use the shift key to use them. By your point, shouldn't the keyboards also show that you need to use the shift key to get capital letters? Or do you pretend that "everyone" just magically knows this?

Ha ha, nice strawman. More like: Historically, Mac users are so used to crippled functionality that they just continue to laboriously drag things around with the mouse, and use double the keystrokes to delete characters while editing. You can pretend that "everyone" just magically knows and uses the invisible hotkeys, but they don't. Those that do are a small minority, and statistically way more likely than other users to visit sites like this one.

What you should be calling out is the absurdity of having to use two hands to delete a character. Every other manufacturer manages to fit this standard key on even the smallest keyboard.

Standard? What about "Delete" tells you that it's going to remove the character in front of the cursor?
What about Back"space" tells you that it's going to delete the character before the cursor? if anything, it should be entering a blank space character before, not removing the character.

This isn't even a Windows-specific issue.

Oh sure, because all of the text editing functions in Vi are clearly printed on a keyboard of Linux aren't they?

And in your citation of hidden hotkeys above, we can also ask: Why are there different hotkeys to trigger deletion in one app vs. another? On a proper keyboard, deleting the highlighted item is always done with the same key: Delete.

fn+backspace works in every app, as do the others I mentioned.

Apple is the company that made fun of IBM for expecting its users to read manuals. Yet Apple makes a habit of burying basic functionality under invisible hotkeys and even hidden menus that can only be discovered by
1. Guessing that they exist.
2. Searching for them IN A MANUAL.

They're not in a manual. Have you read the manual that comes with a mac? doesn't tell you anything. Because you don't need it. I think you overestimate how other people who aren't you use their machines. The average user of any computer system doesn't need a forward delete. You know where the key above the Return key is and what it does. you use it with your right hand. there is no delay or disadvantage to using a modifier key with your left hand at the same time. You can't type another character while deleting anyway, so it doesn't delay your touch-typing speed or anything because the act of making the correction has already done that.

 

[MobiusStrip]

How do you take, a screenshot on a windows machine? do you hit the Screenshot key? no? there isn't one.

Right, because that's not a text-editing function, which is what a keyboard primarily supports. You may as well complain that the keyboard doesn't have a "go to Facebook" key.

Lets take a more generic example. It is marked on every keyboard that the symbols are above the number keys, and you know you use the shift key to use them. By your point, shouldn't the keyboards also show that you need to use the shift key to get capital letters?

Nope, because all of those keys produce the SAME letter when the Shift key is employed. The symbols are NOT related to the numbers, so they need to be shown.

Standard? What about "Delete" tells you that it's going to remove the character in front of the cursor?

The fact that there's a Backspace key, so this must be the other one.

if anything, it should be entering a blank space character before, not removing the character.

That makes no sense. The word "Delete" does not imply ADDING a new character. Not to mention: That's what the spacebar does.

Oh sure, because all of the text editing functions in Vi are clearly printed on a keyboard of Linux aren't they?

Non sequitur. Those are application-specific, not common to all text-editing functions under the OS. But hey: The Delete key DOES work in vi. It also performs deletion functions across applications under Unix, Linux, Windows, and yes THE MAC OS TOO!

They're not in a manual.

Then how are you supposed to know about them? Cave paintings? Oral tradition?

there is no delay or disadvantage to using a modifier key with your left hand at the same time. You can't type another character while deleting anyway, so it doesn't delay your touch-typing speed or anything because the act of making the correction has already done that.

Wrong. Now you've moved BOTH hands off home row, and have to reposition both of them to continue. Lame. Not to mention that the Delete key is used to DELETE STUFF. Like files. E-mails. Selected objects of all kinds. Who the hell expects to Backspace things to the trash can?

The average user of any computer system doesn't need a forward delete.

Ah yes, and finally, we get to the standard excuse for bad UI: "You don't need that anyway." Come on, have some self respect. Following that logic, you could divide the number of keys on the keyboard by three and pile a couple more characters on the remaining ones with a modifier.

The fact is that the industry has seen fit to equip all keyboards with a Delete key. Except for Apple. I guess Apple users don't care how clumsy and time-wasting their tools are. Or... their experience is so limited that they don't know there's a better way to do things. And Apple sure as hell isn't going to admit it.

 

[illitrate23]

Right, because that's not a text-editing function, which is what a keyboard primarily supports. You may as well complain that the keyboard doesn't have a "go to Facebook" key.

Oh, so you're changing the focus of the discussion to fit your argument. The volume up/down keys and function keys aren't relevant to text entry, so you'd have no issue if keyboards didn't include those?

Nope, because all of those keys produce the SAME letter when the Shift key is employed. The symbols are NOT related to the numbers, so they need to be shown.

but how do you know they produce the same letter? it isn't explicitly stated in any manual anywhere. did you find out from cave paintings or some kind of archaic oral tradition?

The fact that there's a Backspace key, so this must be the other one.



That makes no sense. The word "Delete" does not imply ADDING a new character. Not to mention: That's what the spacebar does.

i was talking about the Backspace key, not the Delete key. If "space" means that it is adding a blank character, then "backspace" should be adding a blank character backwards? Surely it should be called Backdelete to clear to users so they don't need to read a manual or something.

Non sequitur. Those are application-specific, not common to all text-editing functions under the OS. But hey: The Delete key DOES work in vi. It also performs deletion functions across applications under Unix, Linux, Windows, and yes THE MAC OS TOO!

not on all Unix machines - i have to use ctrl-H often because the Bash shell isn't configured correct for the backspace key

Then how are you supposed to know about them? Cave paintings? Oral tradition?

Oral tradition, yes. it's what builds a community spirit.

Wrong. Now you've moved BOTH hands off home row, and have to reposition both of them to continue.

If you're are using the Delete key, to forward delete, you aren't in the middle of touch typing, are you? Not unless you've made a spelling error and you've back-arrowed too far or something, so at that point you're typing flow and concentration is interrupted anyway so what's the damage?

Lame. Not to mention that the Delete key is used to DELETE STUFF. Like files. E-mails. Selected objects of all kinds. Who the hell expects to Backspace things to the trash can?

I thought you said we were only talking about text editing???
Anyway, why does it make more sense that the backspace key takes you up one level in the directory structure in windows explorer??

The fact is that the industry has seen fit to equip all keyboards with a Delete key. Except for Apple. I guess Apple users don't care how clumsy and time-wasting their tools are. Or... their experience is so limited that they don't know there's a better way to do things. And Apple sure as hell isn't going to admit it.

Actually, just checked my iPad Air that's in the other room - it does have a Delete key. It's printed on the key above the Return key. There isn't a backspace key on that machine.
So i guess if i really get desperate enough to use a Delete key, i can just switch laptops temporarily.

 

[Night Spring]

Anyway, why does it make more sense that the backspace key takes you up one level in the directory structure in windows explorer??

Because it goes BACK up a level, and BACKspace moves the cursor backwards.

In fact, I think it doesn't always go up a level, it goes to the previous folder you were viewing. So if you jump from one folder to another folder somewhere else in the hierarchy (by clicking on the folders in the sidebar, for instance), the backspace takes you back through your viewing history instead of going up to the next level. I can't confirm this right now, because I don't have a Windows machine here.

 

[tom123]

Puffin (browser), I like the long press - Longpress on text to bring up text select kits. Longpress on image to bring up save menu option

The long yellow tags, are nice and easy to move - better than apples

wish it was an option on some other apps - hope nobody has a patent on it

 

[bufffilm]

>>How do you take, a screenshot on a windows machine

Ummm, no...merely hit the printscreen key.

 

[illitrate23]

>>How do you take, a screenshot on a windows machine

Ummm, no...merely hit the printscreen key.

Have you tried that? never worked on the XP or Win7 machines we have at work. you have to use ctrl-printscreen or alt-printscreen, i forget which cos since migrating to Win7 the firm's desktop support team kindly packaged a Snipping Tool app in our installations that allows me to select just a section of the screen (i.e. cmd-shift-4 in Mac speak)

 

[bufffilm]

Have you tried that? never worked on the XP or Win7 machines we have at work. you have to use ctrl-printscreen or alt-printscreen, i forget which cos since migrating to Win7 the firm's desktop support team kindly packaged a Snipping Tool app in our installations that allows me to select just a section of the screen (i.e. cmd-shift-4 in Mac speak)

Alt-printscreen captures the active window only.

Always worked this way...I have win7. Don't remember on XP because it's been so long, but assuming so too.

 

[MobiusStrip]

You guys can take over. The ever-weaker arguments defending defective design have fallen below the threshold of attention.