Why Purchase Vinyl?

[beatzfreak]

Hey you DJs:

If you want to be a real performer, ditch the vinyl and learn to make music the old fashioned way, with a musical instrument.

I've read the rest of the thread, but I wanted to go back to this, because you're painting a broad brush here. I know lots of DJs who play instruments. I played violin for 4 years, and keyboards and sang in cover bands. It was boring. I found no creative expression in playing the same songs over and over.

When I discovered djing, it was an open book as far as creative expression. I started in the late 80s when you only had 2 sometimes three turntables, a mixer, effects and a maybe a tape deck. I incorporated many styles of music into my sets, Pierre Henry was one of my favorites, along with classical pieces, jazz, soul,latin, classic rock and african. Not by just playing a song but layering sections of them with more contemporary music. And at the same time manipulating EQ, and effects, all on the fly. This is not easy. It takes a lot of hard work to master, much like an instrument. Learning how to read a crowd is extremely important. When all these things come together, it the most amazing experience for both the DJ and the crowd.

I, also, often had drummers, guitar players, percussionists, flutists, and even saxophone players come down and jam with me.


I don't know what you mean by xxx-hop, but, yeah club music loses it's point when it's not being manipulated and layered, which is it's true intention. it's a foundation for open-ended creative expression, and can be morphed into whatever a DJ feels would move their audience.

I'm retired now and love to go out and WATCH a live band, but if I want to dance, I'll go HEAR my favorite DJ.

 

[Killyp]

Either way, studying a traditional instrument in 'the right way' is a great way of crushing all the musicality out of it...

 

[hakukani]

Either way, studying a traditional instrument in 'the right way' is a great way of crushing all the musicality out of it...

Really? In what way? Did you have a bad experience with a less-than-skilled music teacher?

Thank you beatzfreak--yours is the first answer to my admittedly broad-brushed comment that's made the most sense.

I'm glad you had success expressing yourself, but don't you think that your study of violin and keyboards, and playing in cover bands aided in giving you a set of musical skills that enabled you to develop your layering skills?

I think you're the exception rather than the rule. There are plenty of DJs out there, and believe me I've set up the sound system for many of them (usually with a hard limiter so they don't blow the speakers) that are NOT the 'creative' type. They DJ for other reasons.
I don't go to a concert to WATCH the band, I go to HEAR the band. I'd rather WATCH a DJ than listen to them. If I want to dance, I prefer the world music scene.

(note: xxx-hop. The xxx means fill in the blank with the blank-hop of the week)

If you don't mind, may I ask what you retired to?

 

[beatzfreak]

Really? In what way? Did you have a bad experience with a less-than-skilled music teacher?

Thank you beatzfreak--yours is the first answer to my admittedly broad-brushed comment that's made the most sense.

I'm glad you had success expressing yourself, but don't you think that your study of violin and keyboards, and playing in cover bands aided in giving you a set of musical skills that enabled you to develop your layering skills?

I think you're the exception rather than the rule. There are plenty of DJs out there, and believe me I've set up the sound system for many of them (usually with a hard limiter so they don't blow the speakers) that are NOT the 'creative' type. They DJ for other reasons.
I don't go to a concert to WATCH the band, I go to HEAR the band. I'd rather WATCH a DJ than listen to them. If I want to dance, I prefer the world music scene.

(note: xxx-hop. The xxx means fill in the blank with the blank-hop of the week)

If you don't mind, may I ask what you retired to?

Yes, I do believe that my musical study helped me a bit, but I learned and took inspiration from DJs who never had that past. I'm not the exception, because there are no rules to djing. Though maybe it's a bit more rare nowadays, or it may be a location thing. In NYC, in certain circles, it is very common to see at least a percussionist playing along with a DJ. Friends of mine tour Europe as a dj, percussionist, guitar outfit. They have a weekly here, where you never know who is going to show up to jam.

The thing is, there are so many types of DJs out there, of varying styles, you cannot compare one with the other. The type of DJ you have had experience with is not representative of us all.

Yes, world music and dancing go hand and hand. It formed the basis for disco up to current club music. My favorite DJs usually favor that sound as did I. Infact, the party I still go to is thrown by the DJ's who did the song in the ipod commercial last summer. I forget the name of it, because it's Puerto Rican. Tropical something?

As far as retirement, I'm kind of in limbo. Tried to work in the industry in a more administrative role, but I hated the politics. I've been digitizing old tapes for my fellow djs and fans. But, recently I've discovered photography, and I love it. I've done some pro work, but I'm still trying to figure it out. Actually, I love photographing bands. Maybe that's why I said I like to watch bands.

 

[hakukani]

Yes, I do believe that my musical study helped me a bit, but I learned and took inspiration from DJs who never had that past. I'm not the exception, because there are no rules to djing.

Yes, the same thing happened in the development of jazz--not that it's a direct parallel.

Though maybe it's a bit more rare nowadays, or it may be a location thing. In NYC, in certain circles, it is very common to see at least a percussionist playing along with a DJ. Friends of mine tour Europe as a dj, percussionist, guitar outfit. They have a weekly here, where you never know who is going to show up to jam.

Hmmm. Do Dj's have a preferred key like guitarists usually do?...or is it like percussionists?

Yes, world music and dancing go hand and hand. It formed the basis for disco up to current club music. My favorite DJs usually favor that sound as did I. Infact, the party I still go to is thrown by the DJ's who did the song in the ipod commercial last summer. I forget the name of it, because it's Puerto Rican. Tropical something?

I wouldn't be familar with commercials. I haven't had network or cable TV since 1998. Perhaps I'll find some places to listen to this music when I'm in NY this spring. I haven't been to NYC since 1999.

 

[beatzfreak]

Yes, the same thing happened in the development of jazz--not that it's a direct parallel.



Hmmm. Do Dj's have a preferred key like guitarists usually do?...or is it like percussionists?

Honestly, I don't really know. I think maybe they do, but not intentionally, if that makes any sense. It's more a major VS. minor, major to get the crowd going, minor to bring them down. I used buy a lot of used vinyl, if it belonged to a DJ, you'll often see the key and the BPM written on the sleeve.

I wouldn't be familar with commercials. I haven't had network or cable TV since 1998. Perhaps I'll find some places to listen to this music when I'm in NY this spring. I haven't been to NYC since 1999.

Here's the ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJxSpI0xsuw

Things change fast in NYC, let me know, i'll see whats going on then.

 

[Hrududu]

I didn't look through to see if this had been posted in this thread yet, but if not I think some of you vinyl people will find it interesting.

http://www.vimeo.com/1546186

 

[Coldacre]

I see a lot of artists/bands releasing their albums on vinyl. For example, Radiohead released In Rainbows on vinyl at the beginning of this year.

I don't understand why? That was almost certainly digitally recorded and mastered, so doesn't it completely defeat the purpose to put it on an analog format? The music is not going to un-sample itself, you know?

Am I missing something, or is it just for people that want to be music snobs but don't actually understand the difference between analog and digital?

Oh you are most definitely missing something.

first of all, in the case of Radiohead, the last album that they recorded that was digital was "The Bends" in 1995. the 5 records since have all been analog recordings. their albums get mastered twice, once for cd and again for vinyl (at Abbey Road).

the other important point is that there is the disgraceful state of cd mastering that's been going on since the mid 90's. have you heard of the "loudness war"? basically since the mid 90's record companies have been getting their bands to master their cd's at louder and louder volumes. to do this they have to compress the living crap out of the music and also limit the files. limit means to chop off transients (peaks)

have a look at this

does this give a better understanding of why so many cd's sound so brittle, harsh, loud and just generally crappy? the thing with vinyl is you can't master something that hot otherwise the needle will jump out of the groove, literally. you put up a cd version of say Radiohead's "Hail To The Thief" against its vinyl counterpart and there is a world of difference. the cd gives you a headache, it causes listening fatigue. the vinyl sounds rich, warm, alive and has the full dynamic range intact. you buy a cd these days and the chances are you're not hearing it as it was recorded. it's been compressed to buggery.

this is a screengrab of a vinyl rip, then a cd rip of the Radiohead song Bodysnatchers:

which one do you think is going to sound better?

I'd even take a vinyl copy of a digital recording over a compressed hot mastered cd anyday.

 

[ppc_michael]

That's the perfect answer, thank you Coldacre.

 

[hakukani]

I'd take a 30 ips 1/4 inch master any day over the lot. I'd probably prefer a 15 ips copy over vinyl.


Overcompressed is overcompressed, bad mastering is bad mastering. It doesn't matter whether it's in the digital domain or not.

 

[Coldacre]

I'd take a 30 ips 1/4 inch master any day over the lot. I'd probably prefer a 15 ips copy over vinyl.

sure, but you can't exactly walk into the shop and buy a 1/4 inch master.

Overcompressed is overcompressed, bad mastering is bad mastering. It doesn't matter whether it's in the digital domain or not.

well yeah it does, it's the digital format that's been swamped with overcompression and limiting, not vinyl. even a vinyl version of a digital recording will be mastered at a lower volume. and it won't have the peaks chopped off = missing information.

unless you have a completely uncompressed cd master, the vinyl will always be a closer approximation of the original recording. after that, it's down to taste.

That's the perfect answer, thank you Coldacre.

no problems. as much as I love my iPod, it's a pity that they've marketed to hold X thousand amount of songs. the trade-off is s****y 128 kbp Mp3's that's become the norm for most people's ears. music was meant to sound better than that! (go lossless)

 

[hakukani]

Yeah, that's why it's too bad that the open reel analog format died outside of the studio. It really had the best of all worlds.

But still, mastered for vinyl, you've got the RIAA curve to deal with, which introduces phase and other anomalies. There's still only half the stereo separation on playback (45 dB vs. 90 dB), and there's the high frequency loss as you go toward the center of the record, and there's still appreciable flutter/rumble, unless you spend big $$$ on a turntable.

Yep, uncompressed masters would be a great thing.

I agree with you that mp3's don't sound that great, especially on recordings of classical music.

 

[savanahrose]

personally, i love the nostalgia of it. I grew up with vinyl albums and am loving it. So far I have bought 2 of them. One of them also has a code that I can use to download the album in mp3. I came up here looking for a way to put my albums into mp3 format so I can put them on my iphone and in itunes.

 

[Killyp]

But still, mastered for vinyl, you've got the RIAA curve to deal with, which introduces phase and other anomalies. There's still only half the stereo separation on playback (45 dB vs. 90 dB), and there's the high frequency loss as you go toward the center of the record, and there's still appreciable flutter/rumble, unless you spend big $$$ on a turntable.

The channel separation isn't much of an issue. 12 dB difference is enough to give the effect of all the sound coming out of one channel. I agree with you about the other issues though.

One area where vinyl definitely has the upper hand on CD is the dynamic range, which in a lot of cases is larger than most speakers and amplifiers can handle.

 

[Yr Blues]

Think of it like this...a high quality raw photo taken digitally and printed on a 6 color press or the same raw photo shown on a computer screen.

Of course the 6 color process looks better, but it's the same exact information. One made physical, and one communicated digitally.

 

[jodelli]

With me it's just a matter of being able to pick up an LP that I like at a yard sale or music store bin. Examples include obscure one-offs such as an EP of The Bollock Brothers Return Of The Vampire and The Sex Pistols Anarchy Live.

 

[Coldacre]

Think of it like this...a high quality raw photo taken digitally and printed on a 6 color press or the same raw photo shown on a computer screen.

Of course the 6 color process looks better, but it's the same exact information. One made physical, and one communicated digitally.

I disagree with that analogy. it's not the same amount of information, one photo has 2 inches of vision cropped from the bottom and top of the photo. it's then blown up/stretched to cover the missing area.

give me the whole picture please, regardless of perceived quality difference

 

[hakukani]

well yeah it does, it's the digital format that's been swamped with overcompression and limiting, not vinyl. even a vinyl version of a digital recording will be mastered at a lower volume. and it won't have the peaks chopped off = missing information.

"Mastered at a lower volume"? To me that statement makes no sense. Level does not equal 'volume'. Plus, most old school guys that mastered for vinyl put a ton of eq to 'pre' eq the master. That's why the original DG classical pieces that were originally mastered for vinyl sounded like crap on the early cd's.

Any mastering enginieer that masters a CD with the 'peaks chopped off' would never get my business. That is, if you're trying to say that they go over O dB FS. If they put too much compression, or a brick wall limiter, that's a whole 'nother question. All I can tell from your screen grab is one is a higher level than another. It tells me nothing about compression, or how the track sounds vis a vis wow and flutter, rumble, and all the problems that vinyl is well known for.

unless you have a completely uncompressed cd master, the vinyl will always be a closer approximation of the original recording. after that, it's down to taste.

Can't agree with this statement, either. There are phase anomalies introduced in the coding and decoding of the RIAA equalization curve that ALL vinyl records have.

no problems. as much as I love my iPod, it's a pity that they've marketed to hold X thousand amount of songs. the trade-off is s****y 128 kbp Mp3's that's become the norm for most people's ears. music was meant to sound better than that! (go lossless)

I agree with this 100%.

 

[hakukani]

One area where vinyl definitely has the upper hand on CD is the dynamic range, which in a lot of cases is larger than most speakers and amplifiers can handle.

This is exactly opposite of the truth. Sorry. Dynamic range, on a good day, of vinyl is around 60 dB, and that's with audiophile recordings on audiophile (read expensive) equipment.

Cd's dynamic range is around 90-95 dB.

personally, i love the nostalgia of it. I grew up with vinyl albums and am loving it. So far I have bought 2 of them. One of them also has a code that I can use to download the album in mp3. I came up here looking for a way to put my albums into mp3 format so I can put them on my iphone and in itunes.

With me it's just a matter of being able to pick up an LP that I like at a yard sale or music store bin. Examples include obscure one-offs such as an EP of The Bollock Brothers Return Of The Vampire and The Sex Pistols Anarchy Live.

This would be a valid reason to go with vinyl. It's called 'collecting'.

The channel separation isn't much of an issue. 12 dB difference is enough to give the effect of all the sound coming out of one channel. I agree with you about the other issues though.

When I have something panned hard left, I want as close to 0 db coming out of the right channel. But, hey, that's just me.

 

[Killyp]

When I have something panned hard left, I want as close to 0 db coming out of the right channel. But, hey, that's just me.

True, but then again you should never have something hard-panned.

Don't get me wrong, I still think CD is technically superior to vinyl; I just prefer listening to vinyl...

 

[hakukani]

True, but then again you should never have something hard-panned.

Don't get me wrong, I still think CD is technically superior to vinyl; I just prefer listening to vinyl...

Yeah, but I never always follow rules...

I still like to go to plays...

and I'd much rather play and create music than listen to it.

 

[zimv20]

True, but then again you should never have something hard-panned.

why's that?

 

[Sesshi]

Because the channels might get upset.

 

[zimv20]

Because the channels might get upset.

i'm tired of channels acting like little bitches. i tell mine that, even though there's two of them, i only really need one. and if they act up, one gets cut (usually the left, the little bastard) until the next track.

that seems to make them straighten up.

 

[Mr Skills]

True, but then again you should never have something hard-panned.

I apologise if this sounds a little patronising, but as you are interested in music production, I can tell you that "you should never..." are words that you will find yourself using less and less as you gain more experience. It's safer to stick with "I generally prefer not to..."