Why the new iMac sucks so much!

[ghellquist]

I would suspect that the 7200 rpm 500mb drive in for instance the macmini 2011 server is 33% faster thatn the 5400 rpm in the current line up.

I do not know if this is actually true since the rpm is not the only thing determining the actual drive speed.

You are exact to the point. To almost all computer users in the world, the difference in speed between a 5400 rpm drive and a 7200 rpm drive is only seen when starting the PC and when starting a program. Slower, yes but not a world of difference.

If startup times bothers you, the best solution is to go for SSD. Once you have done that you will never want to go back to normal harddrives, irrespective of speed.

For some users a 7200 rpm drive is too slow when actually running a program. It could be the difference between a 2 hour running time for a job and a 1hour 40 minute running time for a job. Or it could limit another user to 40 tracks in the DAW instead of 55 ( And yes, I have run 40 tracks in my DAW ).

If speed of the harddisc is the limiting factor, I believe that you ought to treat yourself to some different solution, maybe using a good external RAID instead.

But of cours, it all boils down to value for money.

And, it is really bad for some users that the professional Mac Pro is not updated lately.

// Gunnar

 

[fig]

Well one of us is stupid in my original post I was making reference to both the 1.5in iMac and its big brother, however, lets just price in the cost of the Fusion HDD a moment and extrapolate from there - its very expensive, i.e., in HK its nearly a HK$2000 dollar upgrade, or US$250 price actually taken from Mac Mini BTO prices today.

in numerous other posts I've highlighted the fact that the cost of a NVIDEA GTX680M, that's the 680M and not the MX, is more than US$300 higher than its peer over at AMD Radeon.

now I may not be a mathematician and have used mac products for 20 years, so it does not take a genius to fathom - what with the outrageous cost of Apple SSD upgrades, that the cost of the highest specced BTO's is going to be high indeed, and I'm not even including its 750G SSD option in my guesstimate.

Still, come middle of November we'll see who's proved right - but I'm put my money on my view given my experience with Apple since 2009 on the BTO price front.

That isn't expensive given the general costs of those drives. the SSD upgrade in the Mini is actually $300 US for the 256GB which is fairly reasonable given the past costs from Apple. Something like a 750gb SSD is horribly expensive to start with, of course it'll be expensive from Apple.

As per the video card I'd imagine it'll be around a $200 upgrade like the ones in the past have been. And even if it's more, the 675MX will be a really capable video card for most people.

----------

Apple is not price competitive in the workstation space, period. I love the stability and reliability of MacOS X, but I can't justify the 800-1000 premium for a desktop Mac anymore. Unless Apple changes their policy at some point in the next couple of years, my current iMac will probably be my last Apple desktop.

This really isn't a new development, though I still contend that most users would be just fine with a high end iMac unless you're doing seriously high end modeling/rendering/video/audio work.

 

[LorenK]

Please read my post: I'm an audio producer i5 over i7 is a huge factor because of hyperthreading, it almost doubles DAW's performance. Why won't you complain about your needs not being attended rather than settling for a PC that could be so much better? There was no need to limit the target to just regular consumers and I'm just very disappointed. I could see the Mac Pro disappearing in the future but now we're rather forced to buy it. Before the refresh, I wanted from the iMac to continue to be a viable choice and I reckon I expected way more than what I received.

I understand your frustration that the iMac isn't better, but I'm really at a loss as to why you're using a device squarely aimed at consumer use for a professional task. The base 4 core MacPro is faster, expandable and can handle any task that the iMac does without breaking a sweat. It doesn't have TB, but will next year, and in any event it can take eSATA cards to use that a storage option instead.

I think that you off base in expecting Apple to meet your professional needs in a consumer product, and while the MacPro has not been updated recently, other than processors, the promise is next year and I expect to see TB, USB3 and other innovation that only Apple delivers on a regular basis.

 

[theSeb]

Well one of us is stupid in my original post I was making reference to both the 1.5in iMac and its big brother, however, lets just price in the cost of the Fusion HDD a moment and extrapolate from there - its very expensive, i.e., in HK its nearly a HK$2000 dollar upgrade, or US$250 price actually taken from Mac Mini BTO prices today.

in numerous other posts I've highlighted the fact that the cost of a NVIDEA GTX680M, that's the 680M and not the MX, is more than US$300 higher than its peer over at AMD Radeon.

now I may not be a mathematician and have used mac products for 20 years, so it does not take a genius to fathom - what with the outrageous cost of Apple SSD upgrades, that the cost of the highest specced BTO's is going to be high indeed, and I'm not even including its 750G SSD option in my guesstimate.

Still, come middle of November we'll see who's proved right - but I'm put my money on my view given my experience with Apple since 2009 on the BTO price front.

Apple's upgrade costs have come down quite a lot recently. The prices I paid for the 16 GB of RAM upgrade on my rMBP was not as outrageous as it has been in the past. The cost of upgrading from the SSD is also not too bad. Try and see what other OEM makers charge for the same upgrades. Dell and Lenovo are happy to charge similar prices for upgrades in the UK so we will have to agree to disagree and leave it there.

 

[3lutz3toe]

AMEN! And they bumped the 21 base price by $100 with all of things that they took out!
—And sheeps keep on defending Apple!

Like others on here, if there was a Hackintosh that I could by I’d do it. The problem is that I prefer OSX over Windows and like the ease of use and I’m doing graphics. And Apple choices for hardware is not the most extensive by any means.

It seems insane that the only computers Apple offers with 1GB of video ram START at $1999, and need to be upgraded to an i7. If you don't need the 27" screen (i.e. using dual monitors, or a cintiq), then there's a massive overhead. Now more than ever, you need to buy all your upgrades immediately at high prices CTO from Apple, since you can't upgrade much in the future.

3d designers, video compositors, animators and large-format image editors all benefit from CUDA and the i7, and may need to pay massive premiums to use an APple that benefits them. Gamers benefit from the faster graphics cards, and are penalized by high-rez monitors.

Apple is not price competitive in the workstation space, period. I love the stability and reliability of MacOS X, but I can't justify the 800-1000 premium for a desktop Mac anymore. Unless Apple changes their policy at some point in the next couple of years, my current iMac will probably be my last Apple desktop.

 

[Jiten]

I'm in the market for a 27 inch but the thinness do concern me. The last model was already quite hot so I wonder how efficiently heat will be dissipated on this one. Looks like another Rev. A product waiting for beta testers to me.

 

[comatory]

You are exact to the point. To almost all computer users in the world, the difference in speed between a 5400 rpm drive and a 7200 rpm drive is only seen when starting the PC and when starting a program. Slower, yes but not a world of difference.

If startup times bothers you, the best solution is to go for SSD. Once you have done that you will never want to go back to normal harddrives, irrespective of speed.

For some users a 7200 rpm drive is too slow when actually running a program. It could be the difference between a 2 hour running time for a job and a 1hour 40 minute running time for a job. Or it could limit another user to 40 tracks in the DAW instead of 55 ( And yes, I have run 40 tracks in my DAW ).

If speed of the harddisc is the limiting factor, I believe that you ought to treat yourself to some different solution, maybe using a good external RAID instead.

But of cours, it all boils down to value for money.

And, it is really bad for some users that the professional Mac Pro is not updated lately.

// Gunnar

Yes you are right but I still think that 3.5" drives are more robust, can have more usage time and when coupled in RAID it gives bigger performance than smaller drives, but it's not huge, that's true.
I prefer them because of bigger availability and cheaper price, I often get them 2nd hand, 1TB for $30 or less is great. To me, it's just a storage but if I had to shell out many times more... than it needs a consideration given the value/performance ratio.

21.5" is almost perfect home computer. I believe it will look great at many people's homes, it will offer enough headroom for typical users: browsing, email, movies, Aperture processing, iMovie editing of home videos. I say almost, because the price increase makes it a little bit bitter purchase, previous price of base 21.5" iMac was really good value. You could boast to people that Apple in fact does make affordable computers - you'd get more than decent computer with beatiful screen, keyboard and mouse, all ready to go, just plug it in. Now, it just doesn't seems so good, makes it a feel bit elitist. It's no longer that affordable family Mac.

On the other hand, I am VERY looking forward to iFixit teardown. That will be the most interesting part. I bet they get their hands on Fusion drive soon from Mac mini, do some benchmarks etc. Who knows, maybe shelling out extra on them will make sense to power users.

I agree with people in this thread regarding some of the crazies around here getting 27" incher with i7 and 32gig RAM. I'm a video editor who usually has open Premiere Pro, Photoshop and After Effects, along with few other programs. I tax my CPU a lot but I'm fine with 16gigs of RAM, I can't see certain users here getting advantage of 32 gigs. Don't tell me they all run mathemathical apps 24/7.
i5 is even good for gamers and unless you're doing time intensive renders, you don't need hyperthreading. Gosh, these people are like kids measuring their .....

 

[markjones05]

I understand your frustration that the iMac isn't better, but I'm really at a loss as to why you're using a device squarely aimed at consumer use for a professional task. The base 4 core MacPro is faster, expandable and can handle any task that the iMac does without breaking a sweat. It doesn't have TB, but will next year, and in any event it can take eSATA cards to use that a storage option instead.

I think that you off base in expecting Apple to meet your professional needs in a consumer product, and while the MacPro has not been updated recently, other than processors, the promise is next year and I expect to see TB, USB3 and other innovation that only Apple delivers on a regular basis.

I am equally as frustrated as the OP and although the frustration is aimed at a consumer product, it is only because many of apples pro users are being forced to get creative with their solutions. The MacPro is extremely outdated and thus grossly overpriced. Many pro's who are in desperate NEED of an upgrade have been searching for alternate solutions to the MacPro because of this. I too was hoping I could switch from my 7 year old MacPro to a new iMac paired with a thunderbolt external video card enclosure and have the confidence that it could perform to the ability that I need but with this release I am not too sure. If Apple updated their entire line equally, many of these seemingly misplaced, frustrated posts would cease to exist.

 

[vpro]

Sealed deal with Devil.

Looks like it folks, looks very much it - that has fulfilled a prophecy, they sealed the deal with the Devil. Lets turn to the light. Lets walk into the forests and allow the light through the branches clear us of all this ridonkulous behavior being pulled on us.

 

[masp84]

Hackintosh is the way. Mac Pros don't justify the 1500$ premium over a maxed out PC

I've worn out of windows tough it's served me great but wanna make a change and also need Logic pro. About blue-ray yep I reckon I started following movements early this year so I didn't know about the divorce

5400 rpm drive is a major step-back for rendering, aight iMac users don't do that kind of stuff... I could've been an iMac user. Still the "upgrade" is far from my wish list, check yours.... basic computing is now possible with tablets point granted. WORKSTATION PC's have a different concept whereas power/price is more important than looks.

Please go to newegg.com and put together a similar machine, unless I'm the only guy struggling with the economy IMO the price gap is really major to justify

 

[MoreAwesomeDanU]

"nobody needs upgradeable RAM..."

Tell me, what tasks do you do on ur iMac that requires an i7.

 

[masp84]

Tell me, what tasks do you do on ur iMac that requires an i7.

Audio Producing
Tracking
Editing
Mixing
Rendering

Video Producing
Editing
Rendering

Current iMacs were a entry choice for me, FW 800, 7200rpm, the ability to add more RAM, the ability to replace internal HD, all that is gone. I spected way different like base models using i7 without paying a premium just for the sakes of shelf life, more ports and options, it this for consumers why not retina? The upgrade just to made it prettier when it was gorgeous designing already. I was left behind guess that's why I whine.

 

[MoreAwesomeDanU]

Audio Producing
Tracking
Editing
Mixing
Rendering

Video Producing
Editing
Rendering

Current iMacs were a entry choice for me, FW 800, 7200rpm, the ability to add more RAM, the ability to replace internal HD, all that is gone. I spected way different like base models using i7 without paying a premium just for the sakes of shelf life, more ports and options, it this for consumers why not retina? The upgrade just to made it prettier when it was gorgeous designing already. I was left behind guess that's why I whine.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core-i7-3770k-i5-3570k_7.html#sect0

i5 and i7 has nearly identical performances in most cases, some maybe 5-10% difference, and thats IF you do any of the tasks you listed on a daily bases, which is a very small market.

For everyday tasks, and a lot of design, photography related work, i5 and i7 offers nearly identical performances.

 

[masp84]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core-i7-3770k-i5-3570k_7.html#sect0

i5 and i7 has nearly identical performances in most cases, some maybe 5-10% difference, and thats IF you do any of the tasks you listed on a daily bases, which is a very small market.

For everyday tasks, and a lot of design, photography related work, i5 and i7 offers nearly identical performances.

I suggest you visit gearslutz forum which is intended for AUDIO professionals, HT allows Logic to identify 8 cores instead of one, please talk about what you really know.

 

[joesegh]

Please read my post: I'm an audio producer i5 over i7 is a huge factor because of hyperthreading, it almost doubles DAW's performance. Why won't you complain about your needs not being attended rather than settling for a PC that could be so much better? There was no need to limit the target to just regular consumers and I'm just very disappointed. I could see the Mac Pro disappearing in the future but now we're rather forced to buy it. Before the refresh, I wanted from the iMac to continue to be a viable choice and I reckon I expected way more than what I received.

You are in the minority of iMac buyers without a doubt. You CAN get an i7 on the new iMacs, both 21.5 and 27". Most people will not notice the increase in speed; as such, they are BTO and not standard out of the box configuration options.

 

[BigMac182]

Two main negatives for me;

Slow hard drive which was implemented apparently so it could be extra thin. Like others have said, who cares about if your computer is 2cm thinner when you don't move it about and it is viewed from the front.

Non-user upgradable RAM. I seriously don't like where the company is going with that.

 

[stoster38]

i5: I grant it for the base model, but the remaining 3 should have i7 BTOs, why Apple doesn't get it? it's unethical to make profit from HT benefits when the processors costs about the same and there's no customization due from their part in any way. We're talking about desktop PC's not an iToy. We already know many sacrifices are made to keep the all-in-one box concept alive, why making even more? the "space" issue was already taken care of IMO and current iMacs still look superb compared to the new ones. So wtf is doing a tablet on a stick with already old technology at such a high price?

Why stinging on power and sacrificing flexibility? I don't really get it, Apple's failing to deliver the processing power that makes the difference between mobile devices and PC's, Some might say they're more light consumer oriented, so what are the iPads and laptops for? Give me a break. I'm an audio producer and many professional audio interfaces use FW800, others use it for storage etc. Now one is supposed to buy a converter and lose a TB port, not only that but (5400 rpm) Hard drives... are you freaking kidding me? @#$=)(#$. No optical drive when I expected at least a bump to Blue-ray, today I'm being forced to pay for like 80 bucks just to be able to burn my music sacrificing an USB port as well. No eSATA, Fewer USB ports. All in all no improvements on this field but a major step back.

Why limiting customization and maintenance even more? Soldered RAM, not serviceable hard drive... We yelled at Apple about it!!! even an Xbox is more efficient in this matter and that's ridiculous if we're talking about a personal computer. The overall design of the product and its concept was defused by this refresh, iMacs are even farther from being "all in one" now, the price to performance ratio is also outrageous, denying entry to professional users who can't afford a Mac Pro and won't spend 3k on a 27" maxed out model.

Screw Apple, they're evil.

I don't have the same requirements that masp84 has but he does have some legitimate issues. I really didn't need to have the imac be thinner especially at the costs of losing the optical drive. Now I'll need to buy an external one. I need it to rip CDs from time to time or make a personal copy of legally purchased DVDs to put on my iPad, and also as I'm buying Blu Ray DVDs some of them provide you with a digital copy but the only way is to insert the special DVD and then use a redemption code.

Saying all that I do intend to buy the new iMac 27 inch. I currently have a mid 2009 iMac and though it still performs decently I need to get an iMac with upgraded processor and graphics card to be able to play current games like Diablo 3.

I'll be waiting for the BTO option to become available to see how much it would cost and then see if I can get a better deal through an Apple reseller.

 

[henrikrox]

I'm in the market for a 27 inch but the thinness do concern me. The last model was already quite hot so I wonder how efficiently heat will be dissipated on this one. Looks like another Rev. A product waiting for beta testers to me.

Im getting really tired of mentioning this to people who dont know simple engineering and materials.

The aluminium on the back of the iMac is supposed to be hot. Why? Because it function as a large heatsink for the internals. Alumnium is perfect for drawing heat from components inside the iMac.

So the alu on the back will be hot. But isnt that better then the internals getting hot? God, im so tired of saying this over and over again.

And why would you reach back on the back of the iMac to see if its hot?

 

[MoreAwesomeDanU]

I suggest you visit gearslutz forum which is intended for AUDIO professionals, HT allows Logic to identify 8 cores instead of one, please talk about what you really know.

If you refer to my original post, i stated that the people who can actually take advantage the i7 would prefer something more powerful than the iMac in the first place (mac pro, custom pcs, server solutions, render farms). And again, you are in a very niche market which clearly the iMac does not cater to.

Its cool that you work as audio professional, but please stay relevant to what we are talking about here.

 

[masp84]

If you refer to my original post, i stated that the people who can actually take advantage the i7 would prefer something more powerful than the iMac in the first place (mac pro, custom pcs, server solutions, render farms). And again, you are in a very niche market which clearly the iMac does not cater to.

Its cool that you work as audio professional, but please stay relevant to what we are talking about here.

We're at talking about an iMac that at the moment is able do the task but the BTO's needed to do so ar beyond fair because of pricing and scalation, lifespan of the tech used. Old iMacs offered great solutions, leave alone the HD and the Optical bay- So your claim is that all Macs are designed to do silly ***** but the Pro that hasn't been updated in 3 years... Get real dude, PC Workstations should ADD rather than take away functions and POWER. If I went for it and we see new gen CPU's next year I could commit suicide.

 

[flopticalcube]

We're at talking about an iMac who can do the task but the BTO's needed to do so ar far from fair because of pricing, lifespan of the tech used. Old iMacs offered great solutions. So your claim is that all Macs are designed to do silly ***** but the Pro that hasn't been updated in 3 years... Get real dude, PC Workstations should ADD rather than take away functions. If i go for it and we see new gen CPU's next year I could commit suicide.

Undoubtedly Apple is waiting for Haswell for the Mac Pro.

 

[MoreAwesomeDanU]

We're at talking about an iMac that at the moment is able do the task but the BTO's needed to do so ar beyond fair because of pricing and scalation, lifespan of the tech used. Old iMacs offered great solutions, leave alone the HD and the Optical bay- So your claim is that all Macs are designed to do silly ***** but the Pro that hasn't been updated in 3 years... Get real dude, PC Workstations should ADD rather than take away functions and POWER. If I went for it and we see new gen CPU's next year I could commit suicide.

An iMac is anything BUT a workstation. Seriously, what were you expecting for an ALL IN ONE? Have you looked at HP/ACER's offers for all in one Windows PCs? They are way more overpriced than an iMac for their specs. It's not for silly **** either. Like I said multiple times, for any professional work besides hardcore rendering and audio encoding, the iMac is the go to computer. i5/i7 makes very little difference for such work. Even if you build one with the same spec on newegg, and add in the price of a 27" IPS, its only gonna be about $200~ cheaper.

The HD and CDROM is not even questionable. Obviously the 21" is not for any sort of professional work, and the 27" do infact come with a 7200rpm hd. Everyone knows apple will NEVER put a blu ray drive in any of their computers, on top of the fact that 90% of casual/professional users don't even use discs anymore. Unarguably, they ARE on their way out. If your profession requires it, clearly you should have an external one for your use, just like how graphic artists buy their own Wacom tablets.

Also, its quite clear that you don't require a color accurate monitor and it adds no value for your work, so why get an iMac? Its not apple forcing you to make dumb decisions by "gimping" their computer, its you selecting the wrong solution for your needs.

 

[Roller]

We're at talking about an iMac that at the moment is able do the task but the BTO's needed to do so ar beyond fair because of pricing and scalation, lifespan of the tech used. Old iMacs offered great solutions, leave alone the HD and the Optical bay- So your claim is that all Macs are designed to do silly ***** but the Pro that hasn't been updated in 3 years... Get real dude, PC Workstations should ADD rather than take away functions and POWER. If I went for it and we see new gen CPU's next year I could commit suicide.

Well, don't buy one of the new iMacs, because you will see new CPUs next year. I can see where the '12 iMac won't satisfy everyone's needs, but for its target audience - people who want an AIO that runs OS X - it'll be great. It's probably not the best choice for pro users with high-end demands - they'll have to wait for the revamped Mac Pro, which has taken too long to appear.

 

[masp84]

An iMac is anything BUT a workstation. Seriously, what were you expecting for an ALL IN ONE? Have you looked at HP/ACER's offers for all in one Windows PCs? They are way more overpriced than an iMac for their specs. It's not for silly **** either. Like I said multiple times, for any professional work besides hardcore rendering and audio encoding, the iMac is the go to computer. i5/i7 makes very little difference for such work. Even if you build one with the same spec on newegg, and add in the price of a 27" IPS, its only gonna be about $200~ cheaper.

The HD and CDROM is not even questionable. Obviously the 21" is not for any sort of professional work, and the 27" do infact come with a 7200rpm hd. Everyone knows apple will NEVER put a blu ray drive in any of their computers, on top of the fact that 90% of casual/professional users don't even use discs anymore. Unarguably, they ARE on their way out. If your profession requires it, clearly you should have an external one for your use, just like how graphic artists buy their own Wacom tablets.

Also, its quite clear that you don't require a color accurate monitor and it adds no value for your work, so why get an iMac? Its not apple forcing you to make dumb decisions by "gimping" their computer, its you selecting the wrong solution for your needs.

You're IMHO wrong, I've seen plenty studios running maxed out iMacs with none shortcomings whatsoever, so they did had a place as a workstation. As I said they were able to deliver enough power for today's DAW's and opened the Mac door for audio pro users like me who wanted a new workstation but choosed to wait for a spec bump not the other way around.

I did the newegg math, although Amazon is way cheaper. '12 iMac 21" BASE with fusion drive costs around 1550$ as far as we know, putting together a PC with the same config is dirt cheap.. you're basically paying for design, the monitor, the thinness and a really gimped Workstation. I thought this was the year to finally get a Mac, but making a PC less functional for the sake of the kids is just absurd, let us all become retards then.....

I DO use optical drives, I do like to be able to at least replace the RAM, I DON'T LIKE EXTERNAL DRIVES NEITHER WILL PAY 80$ TO GET ONE, I need Blue-Ray The STANDARD! whether they like it or not. I ALSO USE FW800, Fusion Drive is packed CR4PP. I won't buy adapters, USB hubs, TB daisy chains for things that were already addressed. It's not like I'm that spoiled so Apple should satisfy all my needs but why messing with the ones covered when there was no need? Optical Bay? well put in a laptop one as well then....

Things most of us expected:
- No price bump (NO)
- Similar Design (NO)
- Ivy bridge (YES, we don't know how much yet)
- USB 3.0 (YES but only 3 ports)
- SSD main Hard drive + 1TB of 7200rpm SATA III for storage (NO)
- More or at least the same I/O Ports (NO)
- Retina Display (NO) Don't bother explaining why, I was against it
- Overall hardware bump (Poor)
- Losing the Optical Bay? come on you can't be that selfish....

either way, things are what they are, it sucks for me and for apple not gettin my money. Every attempt I make to get closer the most scared I am of this company.

 

[harcosparky]

they are BTO and not standard out of the box configuration options.

In the beginning that will be true, however later on in production what was once BTO will be available at Apple Stores out of the box.

I've bought a Macbook Pro and an iMac from the Apple Store that were BTO units when the version was first introduced.

That's one of the reasons I never buy a new model when they first come out.