Why Window Users Won't Switch

[Mav451]

If windows was a robustly designed & coded OS, then we wouldn't have to worry about the registry getting screwed up. But it's not, so therefore we have to. Actually, I shouldn't say "we" because I don't use windows.

I'm a member of a computer club in my city, and I'm one of 2-3 people who use Macs, the rest are windows users. Most meeting topics are interesting, but when it comes time to troubleshoot, it's a nightmare and a neverending one at that.

Case in point: at the last meeting the presenters did a demo on sharing files. So they set about trying to share files between a desktop pc w/win2k and a notebook w/xp. It was really quite funny watching them trying to get it to work: "ok, so just click here and.. uh.. ok hold on. Hmmm, it's not showing up, uhhh ... .ok waitasecond...uhh." Then they rebooted the notebook, then the desktop. Then the notebook again. How many times I cannot remember; I wasn't paying attention after the first 10 minutes. Finally, after 25 minutes of moving the machines around, sweating and much profanity, they got it to work. "See? There we go!"

They also wanted to see a Mac demo, so I got Panther & Jaguar to see each other (over wireless mind you, try that with XP & win2k) in under 2 minutes. It was over before it even started.

I've never really understood people who brag about how they built a super athlon positron 5hgz ultra blaster pc for under $300. I'm real proud of you and would pat you on the head if you were here. The thing is though, Macs have never been designed for people who like to tinker with hardware (not since the AppleIIs I think) so the point of those comparisons would be ...? I also wouldn't hold my breath for a bare-bones system if I were you, 'cause I don't see it ever happening.

Thanks for the flame.

athlon positron 5hgz ultra blaster pc
Lol. And can you tell me what is an "ultra blaster pc"? What is an "athlon positron"?

Quite obviously the diction of a 12-year old. Fortunately for you, the rest of your post indicates otherwise, that you may be older than 12. Hmm...15 maybe? Ah...I hope I'm close.

However, since generally the rest of your post was rather civil I'll still respond. So OSX is easy? Last summer, I was taking a summer class, Landscape Architecture. We were studying some ancient civilization, and our teacher thought it'd be nice to bring in her very own pictures, that she had taken on vacation last year.

So the next day, she brings in her PBook. "Wow, that looks really nice". Of course, last year, I hadn't even touched OSX so I too was mystified, like the rest of my classmates. Well, she begins the presentation.

"The first picture is of...blah blah"...well 2 minutes in, the projector reset. Apparently the connection got cut off, or something. "Hmm, that's odd, it never does that." Ok, after 5 minutes of trying to get the projector to work again, it finally complies. "ahh, ok. Now the second picture".

*Boom*

Connection is lost again. Fortunately, one of our classmates had a IBM Thinkpad in there and she fortunately also had the pictures on a CD. So, we connect it to the IBM laptop and hook it up. It works. And no disconnecting. All she could do was shake her head, wondering what went wrong with the PowerBook.

 

[Mav451]

On the other hand, the mac is plagued with far fewer adware/spyware and viruses/worms. After finding keyloggers and tons of adware and spyware installed on my computer, I'm getting sick of using ANY windows machine. For this reason alone, I'm getting a powerbook as my next computer.

I am really mystified by how this myth is perpetuated. Windows is not at fault for the spyware/adware--it is Internet Explorer (but yes it is still Microsoft's fault nonetheless ). Use Firefox and the number of spyware you get will drop to a big goose egg.

Zero.

What you should be sick of are the Windows machines not running Firefox.

 

[jknight8907]

It wont even play the CD all the way through. If I want it to play the next song, I have to open it up. I'm so glad I switched. I'm not looking back.

I agree with you that Macs are way better, but:

To select multiple songs in one of these programs, hold down Control while you click each one. To select a range, hold down shift and click at the beginning and end.

 

[Krizoitz]

I'm not sure if this is true, but it has been mentioned here before that it is possible to contact the company and surrender your Windows software license in return for the Mac version (which makes sense to me, but then I'm not Adobe ).

I will mention this to her , but what happens if she wants to keep her windows desktop but ditch her windows laptop? Since she will need both versions it makes sense to stick with windows economically for now.

 

[Krizoitz]

I am really mystified by how this myth is perpetuated. Windows is not at fault for the spyware/adware--it is Internet Explorer (but yes it is still Microsoft's fault nonetheless ). Use Firefox and the number of spyware you get will drop to a big goose egg.

Zero.

What you should be sick of are the Windows machines not running Firefox.

Windows IS at fault because it is designed such that the software can be installed without the user knowing it.

Oh and to the person who pointed out that an applications ability to corrupt the registry isn't the OS's fault I say not true. Yes the application is at fault for the damage but the OS and designers are at fault for not creating a decent registry. The registry is a mess. Plain and simple.

 

[Mav451]

Windows IS at fault because it is designed such that the software can be installed without the user knowing it.

Oh and to the person who pointed out that an applications ability to corrupt the registry isn't the OS's fault I say not true. Yes the application is at fault for the damage but the OS and designers are at fault for not creating a decent registry. The registry is a mess. Plain and simple.

You know, actually having used my iBook for quite some time, I am starting to see this. Installing updates required a password...just as the installation of something as insignificant as a game demo ALSO required it.

*Actually, this is even bigger than I thought. Imagine just how many less kids (using daddy's comp) would be installing "that game on the internet" without daddy knowing? Or how much less spyware would be installed, b/c every single piece of spyware would ASK before being installed?

I wish Windows would do this, but somehow I doubt something as simple as this will make it into Longhorn...or maybe XP SP2? If MS decides to at least require admin p/w for installations, it will be a step nonetheless.

 

[Timelessblur]

it does ask. just most people are dumbass and hit yes to some of the crap and also check the box always trust software from this site. almost all the spyware I find on the computer is in the forum of cookies.
If you know what you are doing in windows you can change a few setting and it will always require you to ask. People bitch about windows but give some one who knows what they are doing they can really protect a windows computers. Yeah some stuff will get by but there are ways to figure out what is running.

There is a nice little thing call a task manager. In there you can see ever single exe that is running and you can kill them from there. Also the register can not be altered unless you are an admin. guest and limited acounts can not do anything that effect the regerist

 

[BornAgainMac]

Windows is a great gaming platform. I have a few games that won't work with anything beyond Win95 so I am hoping Virtual PC 7 comes out soon for my G5.

Windows XP / 2000 feels very dated. The next version should be called Windows OT for (Old Technology). Perhaps they can bundle Microsoft Office as part of Windows and charge a subscription fee per month to use Windows. The court system can't seem to touch them. I don't know why Microsoft bothers with new development. They seem to have a large enough market share that they can pretty much sit on their hands for the next 20 years. They know it too.

 

[quagmire]

I think thousands even millions of people want to switch to Mac. But, can't because they are afraid of change. I have been hearing it doesn't have the start button. Oh let's see it's is a freakin different OS. You think every OS is going to have the start button. No! I also am hearing," No software, macs are useless." They have software, maybe not as much a windows but, how many word processors do you need? I have been hearing so many good things about the ipod from anti-apple people who don't know ipods are made by apple.I tell them and most say," Oh, they are, Oh well." One actually threw it on his bed saying," God beep beep it, I loved that thing, Oh well," and he goes picks it up and starts listening to it again.

 

[Mav451]

I think thousands even millions of people want to switch to Mac. But, can't because they are afraid of change. I have been hearing it doesn't have the start button. Oh let's see it's is a freakin different OS. You think every OS is going to have the start button. No! I also am hearing," No software, macs are useless." They have software, maybe not as much a windows but, how many word processors do you need? I have been hearing so many good things about the ipod from anti-apple people who don't know ipods are made by apple.I tell them and most say," Oh, they are, Oh well." One actually threw it on his bed saying," God beep beep it, I loved that thing, Oh well," and he goes picks it up and starts listening to it again.

Dude that last anecdote about the iPod scares me. Several people I know want the iPod simply because it is made by Apple, not the opposite as you put it.

Your start button anecdote does have merit though...

 

[Timelessblur]

Remeber switching over to mac can has a huge cost 2 it. A lot of software you may have to rebuy for the mac plateforum. Once you make the switch I think cost leval out to be simluar enough. Just the cost of the switch can be several grand

 

[AliensAreFuzzy]

Switching

I've been a long time Windows user. I know, I know, It's sucked over the years. I love computers, Probably a little too much.
Well, Anyways, within the past, oh, 2-3 years I've gotten really sick of Windows. I set up a network in my house. It took quite a while to get it to work with Windows. Then I got a virus. OMG! That was an ordeal. It took me over a month to get it cleaned out. Also I've been making movies with my friends lately. I have so many problems with rendering and exporting the videos. My brother got an iBook recently. I've been using iMovie to do editing, no problems. I've decided that I'm going to get a PowerBook. Completely decked out... As soon as I get the money. By then we'll probably have G5 PowerBooks. It'll be so sweet.
Point is (yes all this rambling did actually have some meaning) I've had a lot of problems with my windows machines. I love OS X so much more and it's such a nice feeling to know that I don't have to worry about it not working right. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

 

[hulugu]

Well, its your word against mine. Anecdotal vs. anecdotal Since nearly all the people I know who have built computers, completely illiterate to comp sci majors, were all done well--because they did the research BEFOREHAND. What might also be an issue is that they are all college students, so again, this may have a bearing on the quality of "home-built". I, too, did not build until I was in my sophmore year (2003). There's no way in hell I would trust a middle schooler to build my PC, a high schooler, MAYBE, just maybe if he was experienced enough.

On registry getting blown by programs? That the program's fault, not necessarily the OS itself. I've installed tons of games and the odd number of programs on my computer, legit AND unlegit. Nowhere in these installation/uninstallations did I run into any registry problem. The supposed "slowdown" hasn't been experienced by myself at all--I'm going 16 months strong, just like its new. )

I know we've had this same conversation before Mav, and I'm not saying that every Windows computer is mess and neither is every 'home-built' PC. I'm just saying that 'home-built' PCs can be crap and are not worth the hassle unless you are doing it both for the hobby and to have a great computer. And, its not fair to make Apple—a corporation of thousands, including R&D budgets and advertising (just like Dell, HP, etc.) to compete against the 'home-built' crew; they're different markets.

Secondly, lots of people hose their computers up by d'ling programs and then using the Add/Remove command just not all the comps-sci majors you hang around with. You have to remember that in each group there are specific sections of knowledge that doesn't exist in the general population at large. Many people who couldn't tell you the difference between an iMac or an eMac or the difference between a Chevy Camaro and a Pontiac Firebird or the difference between Classical or Neoclassical architecture.
Don't talk about yourself or the people you hang around with, think about you office secretary, your Lit Professor, your mother and then ask if it is remotely possible for a 'home-built' computer to fail and for the registry to get chewed up by a freeware CD-burning suite d'led from Version Tracker. Yeah Mav, it's possible and it happens all the time. Just not to you. I say the same thing about Macs, it's idiot proof: if you broke it, you're an idiot (apologies to whomever I stole this from).
The problem with Windows is you need JV16 PowerTools, Adaware, anti-virus, Spybot, to just keep it running you haven't actually done any real work yet. So unless you are a sysadmin, running all this stuff is a waste of time, and therefore money.
Wintel machines running Linux are perfectly acceptable, Windows is the problem in my humble and anecdotal filled opinion.
How do you like your iBook and OSX?

 

[JFreak]

i also once thought that it is an advantage being able to upgrade your hardware bit by bit, but now i have "switched" from that also. the reason: i bought a dirt-cheap imac that had a 400mhz g3 processor and half gig memory. the thing has been made in 1999 and cannot be upgraded. that cost me only 130 euros so i got it almost for free.

(ok, to all fairness and a homage to my old hobby i opened the case and replaced the hard drive to a new and fast one. that is a 80GB hitachi and cost me 70 euros.)

the thing is 5 years old having 5 year old apple specs and can run current os and current software very nicely - including photoshop, however rendering takes naturally a lot longer than with my 1.25ghz powerbook. but still, if needed, photoshop is usable with it. and so is imovie/iphoto/itunes and one can watch full screen dvd with it without a single skipped frame.

it blew my mind. i always thought computers should be upgraded every now and then to keep the latest software running. i always thought all-in-one computers cannot have long lifespan because they cannot be upgraded. now i have this 5-year-old beautiful piece of hardware that is completely usable. it has wireless networking, it has firewire and usb, it has slot-loading dvd-rom, bluetooth can be added via usb adapter. it doesn't have any kind of optical wiriting capability, but i don't miss it because my powerbook has a superdrive. and if i would miss it, there is a good selection of firewire burners out there.

5 years without hardware upgrades? show me a pc that old with original specs and i will laugh at it, and so does current windows os&software. sure you can upgrade that pc to current specs but to be honest that isn't so much cheaper than buying a new one. there's nothing wrong with apple selling complete systems with good specs, because - really - they stand the test of time.

that imac will probably run tiger, too, without upgrades. we'll see.

anyway, from now on, i will buy complete computer when i need to, and not worry about upgrades. when the time comes to buy a new one, i will just buy a new one with the money saved by not upgrading the old one all the time.

you see, that is the problem with constant upgrades: it eats the budget of the next new computer. by constant upgrades to old one it is hard to justify a purchase of a new one, and hard to find money for it too. naturally the old one is quite obsolete when you buy the new one, compared to upgraded version it could have been, but hey, you have the new one and not the upgraded old one. and instead of one upgraded computer you have two computers. even if the old one would be obsolete to me, there are plenty of non-profit organizations that would gladly accept a donation in the form of an old still but computer. i can gladly give it away for free because compared to constant upgrading, keeping that old configuration has saved the price of the new one.

 

[JFreak]

and... for the record... in my experience it is the cheap hardware that causes windows instability. i have had almost a year of uptime with quality hardware and windows nt workstation. sure, it is easy to break the windows os that doesn't defend itself from user stupidity, but even if the user would always know what he does, cheapo hardware will cause occasional hiccups.

so it is possible to build a windows pc as reliable as a mac, but it will not be any cheaper. it is not fair to compare a stabile mac to an instabile windows pc. the comparison must be made between two stabile systems.

 

[Mav451]

JFreak: That was a nice story...but my aunt (about as computer illiterate as they come -_-) is still running her mom and pop Athlon 550 on Windows 2000. She doesn't do much more than transfering photos off her digicam to print them...and its still running strong with only 256MB RAM--the amount of RAM it started with alongside a pitiful 20GB 5400RPM Maxtor.

And a source of reference for how well my aunt's "5-year old" PC could run against your 400G3 in apps like Photoshop, XLR8 comes to the rescue
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G4CARDS/XLR8_G4_400Z/index3.html

And also--I am comparing a stable PC to a stable Mac (under the presumption that "all" Macs are stable). How do I know my PC is stable? I think 15 months without a reformat would be a start. No BSOD's, no hardlocks. In fact, I have to overclock clumsily and intentionally, just to induce that hardlock. That's how stable my system is. So can I compare my setup to a similar Mac setup? Of course, because its MY MONEY.

If you don't know how to build a system, then you are limited to pre-builts--fortunately I am not in that boat

 

[Mav451]

I know we've had this same conversation before Mav, and I'm not saying that every Windows computer is mess and neither is every 'home-built' PC. I'm just saying that 'home-built' PCs can be crap and are not worth the hassle unless you are doing it both for the hobby and to have a great computer. And, its not fair to make Apple—a corporation of thousands, including R&D budgets and advertising (just like Dell, HP, etc.) to compete against the 'home-built' crew; they're different markets.

Secondly, lots of people hose their computers up by d'ling programs and then using the Add/Remove command just not all the comps-sci majors you hang around with. You have to remember that in each group there are specific sections of knowledge that doesn't exist in the general population at large. Many people who couldn't tell you the difference between an iMac or an eMac or the difference between a Chevy Camaro and a Pontiac Firebird or the difference between Classical or Neoclassical architecture.
Don't talk about yourself or the people you hang around with, think about you office secretary, your Lit Professor, your mother and then ask if it is remotely possible for a 'home-built' computer to fail and for the registry to get chewed up by a freeware CD-burning suite d'led from Version Tracker. Yeah Mav, it's possible and it happens all the time. Just not to you. I say the same thing about Macs, it's idiot proof: if you broke it, you're an idiot (apologies to whomever I stole this from).
The problem with Windows is you need JV16 PowerTools, Adaware, anti-virus, Spybot, to just keep it running you haven't actually done any real work yet. So unless you are a sysadmin, running all this stuff is a waste of time, and therefore money.
Wintel machines running Linux are perfectly acceptable, Windows is the problem in my humble and anecdotal filled opinion.
How do you like your iBook and OSX?

Haha, ok, but I have a live experiment for you in the form of my twin brother--I built his Athlon box (basically same specs as mine, with his GF3 Ti550 transplanted from his old box). I tell him time and time again, that I will not fix it if he continues using IE.

Guess what? He still uses IE, and whenver I run Spybot on it, I find a ton of spyware on there. But lo and behold, months have passed since that time, Jan 2003 (start of Spring Semester), and yet his computer is still running strong. Which actually suprises even me. We're talking about a brother who doesn't care that he uses IE, clicks through pop-ups, and still runs BT like its his lifeblood.

I always expect the worst, that I'll have to reformat it any second now--Hah, actually I SCOLD him for that any chance I get! The odd part is, well, its been 11 months since I set it up for him in August 2003...and its still running strong. No BSODs, No hard locks--not even explorer.exe crashes!

(of course, it does run brand name hardware in every part of it...from the Antec True 430 PSU and the TwinMOS DDR400 ram to the A7N8X motherboard)

 

[BWhaler]

First off, I sit here amazed that this has not digressed into a flame/troll/anger thread. Great to read a well balanced discussion.

I made the decision to switch on January 7th, 2003 at my first Stevenote. Didn't actually buy a Mac until June since I was waiting for the 15" PowerBook. (I learned my first lesson about not trying to predict Apple's release schedule.) I will finish the big switch at the end of the month when I replace my old Dell with a new 2.5 PowerMac and display.

I am not a gamer, but it took me awhile to switch since the Mac was just different, and there was (the perceived) risk that I could go down a dead end street. I didn't care about the cost or re-buying the software, I just didn't want to buy something that became a paper weight.

But posting on the Mac boards gave me confidence. And there was excitement in the Apple community. So I switched.

I now know my fears were unfounded. I have purchased about $11.5K in Apple products since I switched, and it is the best technology I have ever acquired.

No regrets. But getting more switchers is going to be a game of inches.

 

[savar]

Good assessment, Nate. I'll add just one more reason:

Because I already know Windows, and I'd probably have to relearn everything on the mac.

This is even partly true. I tell people macs are better and they believe me because I'm the local "whiz" but most wouldn't spend money on one because they think Windows is "good enough".

My friend's mom asked us today to help her upload some digital pictures to a website on her Dell. We picked yahoo.com since that was already her startpage. The funny thing is, it doesn't automatically resize photos before you upload them. So it took her well over an hour to get all the pictures uploaded. And even then she was asking "well how do I make the album look different", etc. And the answer seems to be that you can't. Yahoo has a few corny "themes" for albums but none are very desirable.

Furthermore, the camera shows up as removable storage in "My Computer", but when you load up the picture software, it can't see the camera's smartcard. So we had to copy all the pictures over to the HD, even though the camera can be used as a Flash drive.

I thought to myself, "geez, in about 4 clicks and 15 minutes we could have done the same thing in iPhoto, and mom probably would have even *remembered* how to do it."

Also, as a corollary to the above: so few kids are exposed to macs in schools anymore.

Ahh well, hopefully Apple gets their act together *next* year.

 

[yamabushi]

The vast majority of consumers know relatively little about computers in general. Apple doesn't advertise the details of their products which help to provide a superior user experience. With each passing year users get more accustomed to Windows and develop a stronger bias towards it, despite its many flaws. Apple doesn't advertise the capabilities of Macs outside of the Mac community so most users assume they are inferior. It is therfore no surprise that most consumers ignore Macs entirely. Apple's biggest weakness is in effectively marketing their computers to new users.

 

[rdowns]

Gates used to work for apple.

Misconceptions abound, and they are carried forward through sellers, friends, and family alike.

Indeed.

 

[5300cs]

Windows XP / 2000 feels very dated. The next version should be called Windows OT for (Old Technology). Perhaps they can bundle Microsoft Office as part of Windows and charge a subscription fee per month to use Windows. The court system can't seem to touch them. I don't know why Microsoft bothers with new development. They seem to have a large enough market share that they can pretty much sit on their hands for the next 20 years. They know it too.

That's because it IS dated. XP is just an unstable version of 2000. They just change themes and added junk.

They continue developing new version of windows & office because they are not satisfied with just sitting back. They want to increase their profits. "Where do you want to go today?" Should be "How can we screw our customers today?" They've been known to chase after current customers demanding to know if they have proper licensed versions of windows and are not violating their EULA. If they can't account for everything, it's more money in m$s coffers...

 

[JFreak]

Because I already know Windows.

oh, yeah. my father-in-law also repeats this as some kind of a mantra when he is asked to buy an apple next time. and he is the person who most often asks how to use his computer. he thinks that all computers are hard to leard because he has used windows for so long. he actually doesn't even know how to use it, but it seems to be enough for him that he knows what is a start button and he knows that "internet is the blue icon on the desktop".

he recently bought a DV camera so there might be my only possibility to convince him buying an apple. i will not be able to give him support with it on the windows side it is already three years i last touched windows and DV camera at the same time...

yep. people know windows but don't know what to do with it.

 

[5300cs]

Thanks for the flame.

athlon positron 5hgz ultra blaster pc
Lol. And can you tell me what is an "ultra blaster pc"? What is an "athlon positron"?

Quite obviously the diction of a 12-year old. Fortunately for you, the rest of your post indicates otherwise, that you may be older than 12. Hmm...15 maybe? Ah...I hope I'm close.

It was sarcasm, but I'm not at all surprised you weren't able to figure it out I'm 28 by the way, you were close!

And it wasn't a flame, and I'm not sure why you took it that way. You built your own peecee and it's stable. Well, I could say I'm proud of you, but I'd be lying. I couldn't care less.

Oh yeah, thanks for answering my question about comparing Macs vs build-your-own-peecees

 

[ewinemiller]

some people just work better under Windows

Some folks just work better on the PC. I bought an ibook for the wife at the beginning of the year. She uses it for mail, browsing, etc., but when she wants to do serious work, she wanders into the office and boots up the PC. They have the same image editing software, are connected to the same scanner and printer, the ibook even has more memory, but she gets more work done on the PC.

There are a couple of things about the PC that greatly speed up her work. First the thumbnails built into Explorer make it easy to browse for the picture you need. She knows that you can multiselect images and bring them up in preview, but it's less steps to just open the folder in Explorer. The second thing that really gets her is the way OSX mounts shares. If the server is sleeping the next time she logs into OSX, it puts that message in her face that it can't connect and forces her to do do something about it. She ends up disconnecting and then can't get it connected when she needs it. On the PC you just map the drive and it stays without annoying you if it can't connect later. You get the little tool tip on the system tray icon when you first log in, but you don't have to do anything about it. When the fileserver comes up, it's available.

These days things are pretty stable on both sides as long as you use name brand parts (granted that is a default on the Mac), keep up with the security patches, and run virus software on the PC. The twitchy days of win9x and OS8/9 are long gone. At the high end Macs are extremely price competitive, but there is still some work to be done at the low end. Each person will find the platform they are comfortable with, can afford, and go there.

The militant mac evangelists are I think the platform's worst enemy. I like and use Macs and I hate getting stuck in a conversation with one. I see many potential switchers be turned off more by the culture than the performance, software availability, learning curve, or price. I find that I can get more converts not by evangelizing the Mac, but showing them the end result. Showing them the DVD of the kids I put together is 100x more effective than verbally telling them how easy to use and reliable the platform is. If they want to do the same sorts of things, they will ask, and I'll show them, but it's not for everyone.